dafi

And on we went immediately to figure out a modeler´s solution. The build was rather simple, a simple slide for an indicator moved by some thin rope to the left and to the right. The pointer was bit itzy bitzy teeny weeny, a 0,3 mm drill into som 0,6 plastic ... ... and the test assembly ... ... and on my tryout model on location :-) Looks smart and ingenious, learnt something new, added a nice detail to all things Victory and beyond and I am happy. Hope you are too :-) Cheers, Dr. dafi

Looked at some sources for more than a hundred times but needed the help of my german forum mates to poke my nose onto this detail and I was able to put the puzzle together. There are some helm indicators shown in NMM one of them on a ship that is quite dear to me ;-) And both shown examples on contemporary models! http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/66473.html SLR0512 Scale: 1:60. A model of H.M.S Victory (1765) made entirely in wood that has been painted in realistic colours with metal fittings. The vessel is shown in a launching cradle on a slipway. The hull is painted white below the waterline with a closed black wale above. The remainder of the hull is varnished, and laid in individual planks. There are three gun decks and all the gunports are depicted in an open position, the inner faces of the gunport lids are painted red as are the insides of the gunports themselves. A decorative frieze is painted on a blue ground that runs the entire length of the hull just above main deck level. The figurehead is finely carved depicting George III, allegorical figures and a Union flag on the starboard side. Other bow details include a pair of whisker booms, a pair of catheads, one large admiralty pattern anchor, and one small anchor. The model does not have any masts but instead has three launching flag poles. Foredeck fittings include a bell and belfry, stove chimney, and a forward launching flag pole. The waist has been closed in and four beams support a ship’s boat equipped with a number of red-painted oars. Beneath the boat on the main deck are two sets of gratings. The upper deck fittings include the ship's double wheel painted red, and two companion ways that provide access to the poop deck. The poop deck fittings include a rectangular skylight, launching flag pole, hammock stowage rails, and provision for an ensign jack staff. The stern and quarter galleries, of which two are open, are elaborately carved and painted, and glazed in mica. The launching cradle and slipway is realistically depicted and there are six stabiliser poles attached to the port and starboard stern quarters and the sides of the slipway. Date made Mid-18th century Also to be seen on the Royal George (1756) in NMM, rather small but if one compares to SLR0512 one can see the same thing: http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/66297.html SLR0336 Scale: 1:48. A contemporary half full hull and half skeleton model of the Royal George (1756), a first rate, 100-gun three-decker ship of the line, built in the Georgian style. The model is partially decked and has the name Royal George painted on the counter of the stern. The starboard hull shows plank on frame while the port side is unplanked to show the internal construction and layout, including numerous fittings such as galley stoves, capstans and cabin furnishings. Date made circa 1772-77 And the last thing I needed was to be dragged to the detail in the red square on the Turner drawing ... ...

Sometimes research is like a big puzzle, everyone can bring in a piece and suddenly one gets a complete new picture :-) Happend in our german forum, I was in resaerch of a detail on the poop railing and came out with something completely different but nice and surprising. Being pointed from two different friends towards one detail, once to be seen on the contemporary 1765 model of the Vic and once on a Turner sketch after Trafalgar, one could make out something that was most possibly not a mere decoration frieze but a helm indicator! And on we went immediately. The build was rather simple, a simple slide for an indicator moved by some thin rope to the left and to the right. The pointer was bit itzy bitzy teeny weeny, a 0,3 mm drill into som 0,6 plastic ... ... and the test assembly ... ... and on my tryout model on location :-) Looks smart and ingenious, learnt something new, added a nice detail to all things Victory and beyond and I am happy. Hope you are too :-) Cheers, Dr. dafi

Here is a picture out of my own stock of the Warrior´s axiometer :-) The axiometer can be seen on the left side of the drum´s axis. Here are two links to the french Arsenal Forum from the french version: http://5500.forumactif.org/t2176-axiometre#61558 http://5500.forumactif.org/t595p25-model...rre-blanc#19592 http://5500.forumactif.org/t595p400-mode...rre-blanc#77632 Also the different wordings like helm indicator were a good hint :-) Thank you all! And I have some very interesting finds from my german forum, the puzzle is taking form, soon more :-) XXXDAn

There were 6 carronades on the poop from 1780 to 1792. These were not refitted after the great repair. Neither the less the ports could still be "visible" in one way or the other in 1803, if this area was not subject of a complete rebuild. The best guess so far for the swivels is the use as signal/salute guns, as the ship was visibly disarmed when Turner drew it. XXXDAn

Through my quest about the details in Turner´s drawings*** we got into a nice discussion about axiometers in our german forum. Harland mentions one form on the poop deck´s deck beam on top of the wheel, he mentions a contemporary model in the NMM and this is where the information ceases, no luck nowhere, even at google ... Any idea of what model this was and how this axiometer worked? XXXDAn ***http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/13182-thinking-things-through-detail-in-turners-work-on-the-poop-deck-railing/

Some more hints :-) #149 #156 #160 #1011 #1024 #1375 XXXDan PS: The Texas A+M Nautical Archaeology model is imprecise as it shows the messenger hanging straight in mid air! The pulling side is up but the returning side either drags loosely over the deck or hanging from the deck beam. XXXDan

Turner depicted a small detail of Victorys poop deck railing in both a sketch and in one of his paintings. What could this be? A lead? A clamp? A decoration? Thank you, Daniel

At least your version is more seaworthy: No sliding glasses on the side table ;-) XXXDan

The forecastle was rather easy to figure out, a bit more complex the poop is. Again Turner, Livesay and others show a build up bulwark, but how was it constructed? The Trafalgar Companion suggests simple planking hanging on the hammock crane, as sometimes seen on the Jotica builds. The plans and models of the Boyne/Union class - the taste of the art while Vic was rebuild in 1803 show a solid railing, which can be seen on other ships from 1780 onwards. as the Vic carried 6 carronades from 1780 to 1792 on the poop, one could suggest, that this railing was introduced at one point. The model of the Boyne shows this railing with panelling inside, a very nice version :-) http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/68233.htmlSLR2274 Als kleines Schmankerl folgt die Positionierung der Pfosten der obsoleten Platzierung der Karronaden. As a small goody I keep the positioning of obsolete the gunport, but also panels them over. Alternatively there also is the version of the railing being paneled flash over, something the sketch of Turner suggests on the damaged starboard poop ladder bulwark. Strange the positioning of the hammock cranes. Were they hanging outside? Or was this a double wooden railing? The last possibility is a build bulk ward as there is at the forecastle, just without ports. Also this version is slightly higher, like the hammock cranes are today. Both Turner and Livesay show clearly by the width that there are hammock cranes present. Those cranes are still missing in the last 3 drafts. So what to think about these options? It stays intriguing ;-) XXXDan

Very nice and sharp build :-) Congratulation ! XXXDan

OK - Deal! ...ähm... ... anybody an idea what is in there? Nelson-brandy? ;-) XXXDAn

The admiralty would kill me if I brought such a monster bottle home ... ;-) XXXDAn

No, I am even NOT taking the flower power sails as reference ;-) XXXDAn

Thank you Jan, Poppy and Frank! @Jan: Worse! XXXDAn

What a nice gem :-) Love it, Daniel

To the traditionalists :-) XXXDAn

As I do not find much time to do bigger things, I was looking for bits that could be done in smaller steps :-) And know something very hurtful for all lovers of the classic look, not only the "proposed pink-punk" is new to get used to, much more hurtful and more provable things are on the way ;-) By the "rediscovered" Turner drawings from after the return from Trafalgar one can see clearly the build bulwarks instead of the timber heads. Also 3 ports are to be seen. Compared to the Jotica version I used the smaller holes to give access to the timber heads as seen in the Boyne/Union classes and aft of the waist on todays ship. Took me some thought to get the smooth curve into all 3 dimensions, so I started with bolting on a base. Then determined the position of the ports with some ledger shrouds ... ... glued on the inner planking, opened the base at the gunport ... ... temporarily placed the timber heads, fixed in the internal structure ... ... glued on the outer planking and opened the openings. The handrail are two evergreen strips glued together to obtain a nice curve. Cheers, Daniel

Thank you Popeye, I will pick up fishing the anchor as soon as I have more time again, so every help wi ll be welcome :-) Ken, the anchor rope was removed as far as I know as soon as they were leaving the shore. Retrieving it was easier in my opinion, replacing it much more a task using a messenger rope to pull it in place and keep it in place while the lashing was done. The plug still will come of course. Thank you Zeh, will study this :-) Dave, ships were always a wet case in those days ;-) Thank you Mike and Lawrence, always a pleasure to entertain you :-) :-) :-) XXXDAn

Interesting discussion and thanx for the hint to Arming and Fitting Robin! After the introduction of the wheel it took another 60 years where the slack tiller lines were tolerated until the Pollard system was introduced using the sweep to compensate the different traveling ways of the tiller ropes. And this was only in 1771, the year of the drawing. Also AaF shows several sweeps in exact the same position 2/3 the way, only reason could have been imho to support the tiller. And I do not believe, that the Endeavour would have been one of the first vessels to be equipped with this newest device ;-) XXXDAn

It was always my understanding, that the sweep was to keep up the tension of the tiller rope and not in first place to support the tiller - somebody here in the forum put it once in a nice way: How is the tiller suppose to stand the violence of the sea if it can´t support it´s own weight :-) But this is what is irritating me. To correct the difference tension of the tiller rope, the sweep has to be at the curve of the tiller rope, in this case the outer end of the goose neck. So why is it at 2/3 of the tillers length? XXXDAn

For the change of shift it is ok :-) Just realize, that the scarfs follow the real beams underneath!!! Those are usually situated fore and aft the gratings, companionways, masts etc. and are not as regular as you show, thus resulting in different lengths of planks! Also no scarfs on the short pieces as in-between the gratings or near the head or stern. Here some sketches I did for our german forum some time ago to show the approx position of the deck beams, I think based on Alert. Also added the planking pattern and the waterway. XXXDAn

Mark, do not forget, some left specimen are still needed for the handling of Yards and sails :-) I think, it is getting tight, by the means of manpower. Henry, it would be funny to break this down into the single steps just to see how this works. XXXDan

Feasible yes - that says it quite right :-) Even though letting go the anchor was possibly more spectacular - if seen from the lower deck with the flakes running out - getting the anchor up and about was more laborious. Lets do the count: 260 on the spill, 30 handling the messenger, another 50 stowing the cable in the hold. Then another large crew on the forecastle getting the davit out, catting and fishing the anchor, the spill midships manned for the catting and fishing - is 800 men enough one wonders ... XXXDAn

@Kevin Looked at Longridge and I believe that that was more a temporary fix with the two lines running upwards that loosely. XXXDAn