Morgan

Also, and I have to re-find the reference, he mentions that prior to the 1800 refit the 32 Pounders were of the old type, by which I presume he means the pattern that preceded the Blomfeld, in which case there would be a noticeable difference on your dummy barrels muzzle swell. He also thinks they may have been on at Trafalgar but we know this is not the case as we can trace them to 1803 and some remain on board.

Gary

Hi Dafi,

Concerning bronze cannon Bugler at page 21 says “It is also interesting to note that by 1790 all brass ordnance had been succeeded by cast iron throughout the Navy and it is very likely that the last remaining brass ordnance in the Victory was discarded during this repair (1788)”. Not definitive but opens the possibility of brass cannon up to this point.

Gary

Jeff is right, that’s what I did. You will then get a follow-up email.

Gary

A 3D laser scan of the Victory has been done, visit the official HMS Victory website and look under the Restoration section.

There is also this BBC News article:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-22789106

Gary

Reckon I’ll take the plunge, this will use the full range of Chuck’s bulkheads and fittings, but as I have some hefty English Boxwood logs and a large quantity of Pear I’ll mill my own lumber, I also have some Ebony I’ll throw in as well.

I’ve taken Advantage of the NRG 2 years renewal offer as well, so I’m signed up for a while now, perhaps even longer enough to build the base board 😁

Gary

Chris,

My bad, it’s the Anson I was looking at in the painting - Not the Magnanime. All 3 were razee’d at the same time (Gardiner p.41).

I've not looked at the 74’s razeed during the war of 1812, but the same may apply. I’ll edit my post above to correct the names.

Gary

Chris,

Come me at it from another direction to corroborate the 7 window theory in the absence of direct evidence. Anson was ‘cut-down’ at the same time, as was Magnanime and Indie. As a 64 Anson had 8 lower windows, but paintings show 7 - see below left hand ship (capture of Pomona of Havana by Thomas Whitcombe). The rationale would have been to have a razee look like a frigate, and 8 windows were a give-away that it was a razee which would be avoided, you wanted the enemy to see a lesser ship of force.

Other instances would assist in the provenance of the 7 window proposition.

Gary

Books can be addictive, over 250 at the last count excluding periodicals and naval fiction (all mainly around the Revolutionary and Napoleonic wars period) thankfully after retiring I binned all work related books so still have some room to expand  - although the wife may have other ideas.

The Imperieuse would make a great subject, the Spanish hullform would distinguish it from other frigates on the market, plus the historical prominence in naval literature helps with the attraction to it as a subject.

Gary

Chris,

Mindful of the 'viewer beware' caveat, have you seen the image below?  It is a little naive, but does show 7 stern windows.  This is from RMG collections PAD5498, it does capture the fact that the captains accommodation was on the quarterdeck so has some basis in fact rather than just a generic frigate.  Not sure about the decoration though, it looks too ornate for the times.

Also, and again you may have seen this, Robert Gardiner's book Frigates of the Napoleonic Wars gives a good account of how Pellew influenced the fit-out of the ship that varies from the drafts, such as ordnance, captains accommodation (foreshortening) and rig (64-gun ship).

Gary

Having spent a lot of time, money and the Admirals patience in researching what ships actually looked like I would be hesitant to rely on late 18th / early 19th century paintings. As you say many were not actually contemporary, and often generic. Some used Admiralty models as a basis, but these were not often ‘As-built’ but merely indicative with details such as actual decoration / carvings being decided upon at a later date, unless included on the Admiralty plans.

What I believe can be relied upon are Admiralty records and plans, and also contemporary artists preliminary sketches, where they still exist as these were the best eye witness accounts, but are difficult to come by. Often the paintings derived from these sketches changed the subject significantly to conform with Georgian allegorical ideals as demanded by their patrons, so indeed “viewer beware”.

Gary

I would hesitate to trust Pocock he consistently painted Victory after her 1803 refit, yet with her original stern which disappeared during that refit, despite having seen the ship for himself and having sketched her re-modelled stern, he liked to ‘bling-up’ his ships.  Wylie had similar faults and was painting 100 years after the event.

Some of the latest research is captured here https://julianstockwin.com/2017/10/10/agamemnon-the-darch-model/

Even this though shows 8 lower windows, it has some research provenance from what should be reliable sources.

Gary

56 minutes ago, chris watton said:

I do have a 64th scale Bellona earmarked for my new range of kits, after buying copies of the original plans.

 

I think Amati should make up 25 full victory kits, for those that will pay, and then think about the 4 parts. May be better if they split it deck by deck.

I’d like to see Bellona at 1:64, I’m also up for a full Amati Victory kit rather than instalments when released - tomorrow would be fine only if ☹️

Gary

I use http://www.originalmarquetry.co.uk/, usually a good service. Also as Spyglass says try Cornwall Model Boats who also supply Pear, I had a recent order with them. I haven’t searched for the sizes you are seeking.

Gary

30 minutes ago, mcpwilk said:

Looking good. I tend to plank clinker hulls in a single layer.

 

Mike

Perhaps you could share how you go about clinker planking for those of us on the forum who have never attempted this.

Gary

Interesting they aren’t on the other decks, which makes me wonder, normally upper deck under the forecastle was the location of the sick berth, so whether ventilation (rather than have the adjacent bridle or chase ports open which would be difficult in any rough weather / seas) or pissdales were they associated with the sick berth?

Gary

There is also ‘Navies of the American Revolution’.

Gary

I’ll keep watching, it may inspire me to dust off a half complete DoY I have sat in a box in the study.

Nice work, keep going 😊

Gary

I’ve had no problem with the Limewood parts (17/18/19), as suggested by Chris I fitted them to frame 10 before fitting frame 10 to the longitudinal frame, immediately on gluing them to frame 10 I immediately installed frame 10, with parts 17/18/19 fitting nicely in to the slots on frame 9. I’m not sure that at this scale if they are made of MDF they will be any stronger.

Gary

Hi BE,

Enjoy Staithes, if you haven’t done so before look in to the Captain Cook museum in Staithes, also I’d recommend Panart Park Museum down the road at Whitby they have some nice Napoleonic bone warship models as well as a good whaling section.

Gary

That’s great, I hope you are a quick builder - there are quite a few of us champing at the bit😉.

Gary

23 hours ago, James H said:

Looks like the Amati kit will at last be released.

 

I should be building the first production test starting this October.

So does this provide a guideline for the kit general release date? I take it you have been in contact with Amati.

Gary

I can’t remember where but I recall reading that varnish was mixed with chimney soot to produce a black paint that was applied to the guns and metal work in order to provide a semi-gloss finish, as opposed to the navy board supplied paint which was a dull colour.

Gary

Ordered the Alert on Saturday, delivered today at lunchtime, great service. Also, the external sleeve is really substantial so no damage. I also like the internal packaging which unlike other manufacturers fills the box helping to protect the material and fittings in transit. Well done Chris. So what’s this ‘new third’ kit your teasing?

Gary

I’m reading all this from the Greek Islands and feel I’m missing out, the release was just as I departed the UK, but never mind just a week to go and I’ll get my order in when I return home, for now I’ll just console myself with another bottle of wine (and another, and .....) 😁.

Gary

2 hours ago, mtaylor said:

Thanks for the explanation, Gary. 

And another question.... Were carronades counted as "guns"?  That's one of the points of contention not just on Victory, as I understand it.  But then there were 24 and 26 gun frigates that only had carronades.

Hi Mark,

No, carronades were not counted in a ships armament until after the Napoleonic wars.  So whilst a frigate may be rated as a 38 she could also carry 8/10 carronades as well, so really 46/48 guns.  So the term ‘38’ became a nominal or ‘class’ term, the boundaries became further blurred as the wars progressed and the carronade became more popular, a 38 could conceivably carry 30 cannon and and 16 carronades, but she was still a 38.

This led to Captains exaggerating their captures, so it was not unknown for a Captain to say his 38 (actually 46 guns overall) captured a larger opponent of say 42 guns, which was in fact a ship of lesser force say a 36 gun frigate with 6 additional carronades (or French equivalent).  This happened in British, French and US navies, the attempt was to influence the captured ships value and amount of prize money, not to mention enhancing the Captains reputation.  This led to bitter arguments over how difficult won ship actions really were, so eventually Admiralties came clean and re-classified ship ratings to reflect the actual number or overall number of guns carried.

Hope this is clear.

Gary