David Rice

I would like to thank everyone who gave me constructive advice and provided alternatives based upon the subject of the thread. Others...........no comment.

15 minutes ago, Cathead said:

David, with respect, I think you're overstating the situation. Tribal laws can certainly vary, and I don't know what Tlingit and Haida Nation policy is specifically, but there's no blanket national prohibition on photographing or otherwise reproducing native arts and crafts. For example, the Navajo Nation requires permits for commercial photography (anything that will be sold or otherwise distributed commercially) but welcomes personal photography as part of their essential tourism industry. Such photography should always be done respectfully, and ideally with personal permission, but there's no Federal law outright forbidding it. I'd guess that you got in trouble, not necessarily for taking the photo/video, but for letting it be placed on TV, because that became a commercial use situation.

 

As for the eagle feathers, that's not rooted in tribal law, but conservation law. Possession of any feathers from native North American birds is illegal, a rule rooted in conservation efforts to stop the harvest and trade in feathers that was decimating bird populations. There is an exception for Native Americans in cases where specific feathers (like those of the Bald Eagle) have cultural/spiritual value, but the basic law has nothing to do with tribal rights.

Yes, 25-30 years ago I should have gotten Tribal Permission for a Tlingit Canoe video. I was unaware at the time. Even though I do not meet the Blood Quantum, I have always been accepted as part of the group. In the summer, I am darker in color than they are. Being mistaken many times for a Native American.  The "main conversation" is about the art work on the canoes and used other places. A non Tribal Member can not use the Tlingit/Haida art without permission. Not even on scale models. Most of it has been patent. As far as feather collection, I suggest that your argue (which is what you want to do) your position with a Tribal Attorney. This is not the place for such arguments. 

59 minutes ago, Cathead said:

David, I was under the impression that such restrictions only applied to sales and implied provenance, as described on this Department of the Interior site:

 

 

The wording here seems to clearly refer to arts and crafts for sale that are representing themselves as Indian-made, rather than broader artistic themes that simply incorporate Indian imagery as a natural part of the art. For example, under your description, a historical painter couldn't include any imagery of Indian jewelry, basketry, or clothing if they are not themselves native; same for a museum diorama builder; and that hardly seems to be the legal situation. To me, it seems that a representative scale model of a vessel of native design is quite different from a model actually built or carved in a specific native style and being passed off as native-made. And even then it appears to be primarily a question of marketing, not production. When I was in college (post-1990, so post- Indian Arts and Crafts Act of 1990), I took a course in Navajo weaving as a balance to my heavier double-major coursework in science and foreign language. Navajo tribal rules at that time (as they were presented to us students) were that you couldn't teach their weaving unless you had been trained directly by a Navajo, but that there was nothing wrong with making your own Navajo-style weavings for your own use as long as you didn't try to sell them or otherwise pass them off as authentic. It seems to me that the same sensible approach would apply to model building. 

 

Can you provide further insights into your belief that native designs or imagery can't be legally used in any context at all?

 

If a S.E. Alaska Native creates the art, they can then sell it to the public. However, most Tlingit and Haida Art is "patent" .  I could not re-produce that art for myself, display or for resale. I know. I got in trouble a number of years ago. I took a picture/video of a Native Canoe like the ones pictured above. It ended up in the public on television. I needed Tribal and Artist permission to do so. Which I did not have. It's complicated. It's best to stay away from such situations.

I am going to add something to help explain how complicated things are.  I live where there are hundreds of Bald Eagles. I can have 5-6 Bald Eagles sitting in a tree located in my small back yard at any one time. If a Eagle feather falls to the ground on my property I am not allowed to touch or pick it up. However, my granddaughter, who is whiter than most people, green eyed with blond hair, yet certified as 1/4 Alaska Native can pick up that feather, and bring it into my house. Then give it to our cat as a cat toy. Native American Law is very confusing.

My condition is very rare. Chronic. The singer Celine Dion has it.  It can sometimes flare up and be extremely  painful, and nothing taken seems to help. If you have ever been in so much pain that you almost pass out, vomit, or laying on the ground squirming, then you know what I am talking about.  I have already lived longer than most who have contracted the condition. No life isn't fair.

Lot's of good suggestions above.  I am considering another wood kit. Larger scale. But which one? 

18 hours ago, Bob Cleek said:

Double ditto to Jaager's recommendation. There are a wealth of small craft designs available. Many plans are available in book form, such as Howard I. Chapelle's American Sailing Craft and Small American Sailing Craft and Basil Greenhill and Julian Mannering's Inshore Craft: Traditional Working Vessels of the British Isles. These small vessels are generally in the under-50' range, some even in the 10' or 15' range. They can be built to larger scales, 1/2" or even 1" to the foot are not uncommon for small craft models. They do not have a lot of complex small-scale rigging details. As they tend to be somewhat primitive types, their fittings and rigging blocks are easily fabricated. Assuming you get yourself one of Jim Byrnes' mini table saws, a Syren Ship Models "Rope Rocket," and perhaps a scroll saw, you'd be set up for the rest of your days to mill your own modeling wood from that really great Alaska Yellow Cedar you've got growing up there, spin your own scale rigging line, and be entirely free to build anything you wanted at virtually no cost.

 

Working in larger scales can be very satisfying. Smaller boats have fewer and less complex details and when modeled at larger scales little detail need be sacrificed as is otherwise the case with larger vessels at smaller scales. Another advantage of small craft modeling is that the models are generally smaller and easier to display, and you can build more of them in a shorter period of time, which avoids the inevitable boredom in the middle of a large model project that may take years to complete with a lot of repetitive tasks along the way. 

 

With no malice intended to plastic ship modelers (of which in my misspent youth I was one,) assembling plastic sailing ship models can be every bit as tedious as building wooden models (and yield a finished model of far less archival value.) There is relatively little difference in difficulty between rigging a plastic square-rigger and a wooden one. It would not appear that you would be gaining much in terms of compensating for your physical challenges by building in plastic rather than wood. I do admire your dedication in staying at modeling despite the "ravages of age." You certainly are among good company in this forum! I'm guessing a large majority of this forum's members have reached retirement age and by the time we get there, most have "old war wounds" with which to contend. My particular modeling challenge is the loss of feeling in a number of my fingertips due to peripheral neuropathy. Others, I believe, are wheelchair users and, of course, most of us have progressive deteriorating close-up visual acuity. Nevertheless, "We few, we happy few, we band of brothers," soldier on.

 

Additionally, small craft models are sadly overlooked by many. While I risk stepping on a toe or two here, I will say that in my opinion there is much  well-deserved accomplishment to be had by any ship modeler in doing a good job assembling yet another Victory or Constitution kit, but, at the end of the day, beyond that the result of all that work is no more than addition of another kit model added to the hundreds, if not thousands of models of these same ships built before. On the other hand, scratch building small craft offers the opportunity to create a unique model of a vessel which will have been rarely, if ever, modeled by anyone before and, if well researched and documented, it can be appreciated not only as a satisfying accomplishment of the modeler's skill, but also as a valuable addition to the historical record. 

 

Up in your neck of the woods, the Pacific Northwest canoes of the Tlingit, Haida, and Tsimshian tribes raised dugout canoe building to perhaps its highest level of development. They carved thin-hulled canoes out of cedar and Douglas fir logs and then filled them with water and hot rocks to steam the wood which was then spread to increase the beam and thereby yield a graceful and seaworthy hull. These canoes were then colorfully painted in shamanistic themes. The construction method of these canoes perhaps explains the fact that they don't seem to be frequently modeled. That said, a clever modeler could perhaps take on the challenge and, if successful, really produce a fascinating and academically valuable set of models of these indigenous watercrafts.

 

 

 

BELOW: NOOTKA CARVED CEDAR DUGOUT CANOE MODEL Late 19th/Early 20th Century
Bow and stern with vertical incised carving. Length 30".

Auction catalog estimate $400 - $500.

 

It's against the law to use N.W. Native Art if you are not a Tribal Member. I am not a member. However,  I have Native/Children and grandchildren, but I am not allowed to "copy" or distribute any traditional Native Art.

I am in my 70's. I have a very rare disease/condition called Stiff Person Syndrome. I have been fighting the disease for over 25 years.  I am currently trying to finish my 1:64 scale USS Syren Brig.  Over the years my vision has gotten poorer, and my dexterity isn't what it used to be. I am really struggling trying to finish the Syren. Rigging guns, sails, and small detail work. I do not want to stop modeling. I need help and want suggestions for choosing my next model based upon my physical limitations, which will continue to deteriorate over time. Which scale?  Type of ship? Stay with wood?  Move to plastic?

Now that winter is approaching I have more time for building.  I finished the Top Rails, and did some painting. I will soon start the deck work.  I haven't made any Tree Nails yet. I am still unsure which way I will go. 

Congratulations, you didn't get any of that poor quality "pink" plywood.  I am still cursing the stuff. I'll be watching. At my current speed you should catch and over take me soon.

Building ship models is like making love to a fine woman.

I say multitasking is required. 

Sally Hansen Hard as Nails. It works for all kinds of things.

The hull has been planked, now it's time to sand. I wonder if I could "subcontract" this part out?

Yes, I hurt my finger. I always seem to end up giving blood for the cause.......

2 hours ago, Duncbe said:

"I've found some spots that need shims"

Interesting. I also needed to add shims on my Caldercraft HMS Snake.  Nice wood.  Sure better wood than what I received for my Syren.

I finally have one side planked and enclosed. Not the best job, but good enough for paint and copper sheathing. 

My putty "Cheater Paste" was old and did not work well.  I have since bought some new.   I was going to paint the gun port area.  I am not happy with any of the colors I have been looking at.  Looking at the traditional Golden Oak Stain again. Laid a few planks, but haven't spent too much time at it. 

Making slow progress. I played around with some paint today. I created a very thin paint in a Yellow Ocher color.  I also practiced making tree nails.  The sample below has tree nails to the left. No tree nails to the right. I mixed some different green colors, but since the model has so much black and black trim, the green color makes the model too dark. I could skip the tree nails and use thicker paint.  Anyway, it's time to get back to planking. 

Looking good. Since I am using Basswood, I decided to paint my Syren.  The last ship I built was with Basswood also. I stained some of it, but looking back, I wish I hadn't.

Are you going to make tree nails? I am at that point now.  Thinking about tree nails, then painting with watered down dark green paint. Similar to the color of French Ships, or black and cream colored like the USS Congress.  Not sure yet.

A little more tweaking and sanding and I will be back to where I was before. I wish I had done this at the beginning. What a difference.

10 minutes ago, svein erik said:

Hi, Grait work so far, I havent startet with my syren build yet, but I got a New frame to build on

so I hope it better😊

If your Kit contains any of that pink colored plywood, I suggest you send it back for a replacement.

This Stern will not fall apart in my hands.

Starting the repair process. Filling in the gaps between the remains of Stern posts C and B looks a bit tricky.  I better buy some wood filler (cheater paste).

Only the A & B Stern Posts disintegrated. The C's look OK with the planks laid on them.  I will cut the A & B's from some 3/16 stock. 

22 minutes ago, reklein said:

Try making your new one out of two pieces of 3/16 bass wood. Two beams laid crosswise and sanded to shape.

Yes, that's what I was thinking about doing. I wonder if I should build it, then install it. What do you think?

30 minutes ago, Jim Rogers said:

I betting Chinese plywood was used. Model Shipways really needs to do better quality control. Send them that exact picture and complain. It is not only that it crumbles away, but your hours of work and the frustration it has wrought.

They know about the problem with the pink colored plywood. It's still in many Kits though.

The Stern Material provided in the Kit fell apart like an old dry rot house. 

32 minutes ago, Tigersteve said:

Yikes! That should glue right up. 

Steve

The Stern Post are made out of that pink plywood. Right now they are breaking apart in my fingers like dry rot. I am afraid I will have to make some new Stern Post out of another material. I wish now I had discarded the stern post material provided in the kit,  and built new ones out of a better material at the beginning.  Grrrrrrrr

I have been further educated....................