bruce d

Welcome to MSW. It is a fine place to share and gather information, full of helpful people. Looks like a good start on your build, will you start a build log? Bruce

Kudin, thanks for that lesson. I have used ordinary nuts to convert square to round in the past but that does not work if you want leave part of it square, only if to turn down the entire length. With your die method I see you can do the ends and finish with a tidy square face. Good stuff.

Ignore my question, Kurt has the better solution for you.

Hi Kevin, is it an external motor?

Hello Frank, There are several reasons for confusion concerning the details of PICKLE, the biggest being that there were two ships in the same waters with the name at the same time. But you have certainly already found this, so here is my path through the maze: Ignore Wikipedia. The current entry cites refs of the Naval Chronicle which are the source of the confusion between the two ships, not the solution. Rely on the painting ‘The Victory of Trafalgar’ by Robert Dodd. There is little doubt that it was created under the direct guidance of Commander John Lapenotiere in the days after his arrival in London in November 1805. It shows a ship pierced for fourteen guns (also a distinctive application of the Nelson Stripe). The Naval Chronicle Vol 10, page 257 describes Pickle leaving Plymouth as ‘… the Pickle, of 14 guns, Lieutenant Lafontaine [sic]’. Ignore the PICKLE replica ship. A close up from the Dodd painting: Also, as an observation, she is described in various sources as ‘… of eight guns...’ or just ‘… six guns’. This may reflect the number of guns carried at a particular date but is different from what you and I are looking for: how many guns she was pierced for. I am treating my Pickle as a fourteen gun, gaff-rigged Bermuda schooner. She will be mounting four 12lb carronades; two boats, a cutter and a jolly; a coppered hull and two stripes. For what it is worth, the book ‘HMS PICKLE, The Swiftest Ship in Nelson’s Trafalgar Fleet’ by Peter Hore is my main source. It is based on Hore’s own research (which he is quick to correct when shown contrary facts) and that of the late Derek Allen. The muddle in the Admiralty records in London arising from two Pickles operating simultaneously is patiently unravelled. I have read a lot of the Pickle logs and related files at The National Archives in London and have found nothing that contradicts the account given in the book. Let me know if you want to pick over any details and compare notes. HTH Bruce

Thanks to all for the comments. The PDF attached is good reading for anyone interested in carronades. After reading it I am satisfied I was wrong to think that PICKLE may have had four-trucked, stepped cannon-type carriages. It was good to dig, and guess what? I found out what everybody else already knew! The sliding carriage was standard and some had trucks, some didn't. Bruce object-9-carronade.pdf

Welcome to MSW. Hope to see more of your work. Bruce

Hello Dubz, I missed all of the early part of your Sherbourne build so excuse me. Have the other Slade designs FERRET and LURCHER been any help to you? There is a good plan of LURCHER in the Dansk archives: Also, another drawing of LURCHER, ref: D3525, is in the Dansk archives but it is not digitised. I believe it is another view of hull/deck details, not sailplan, but have not seen it. I hope this helps, perhaps just more pieces of the puzzle.

Chris, thanks for the information. This is the very plan I had in mind when I first thought about scaling up the dimensions to make a 12 pounder. I would not expect a small ship in Nelson's fleet to have been a priority when the new guns were being handed out so I am working on the assumption that Pickle had armament that was at best 1803 manufacture (the last entry I can find in her log for re-gunning) and probably earlier. I am not saying they had hand-me-downs but I feel guns/carriages from 1800-ish feel right to me. The drawing you have posted may well be right for the Trafalgar era and if I unearth anything that dates it earlier I will share it. Regards, Bruce

Well that is good to know: I just ordered a copy! I look forward to seeing it. Thanks, Bruce

Sounds good to me! PM sent. Many thanks.

Thanks druxey, sounds interesting but I don't have that. Does it have a date?

Hi Per, Thanks, maybe a version of this image? I wish I knew the date of that carriage. The arrangement of the rear 'wheels' look more like rounded skids than working trucks. This image below is interesting but I haven't tracked down the identity of the carronade shown. It was exhibited at ' Artillery on Parade 2016 ' according to Captain Google. Open to suggestions. Someone may know the back-story and I may be chasing shadows. Bruce

Hello Allan, Thanks for the useful answer. It is probable that my subject (HMS Pickle in 1805) did indeed have the traversing type of carriage that was common at the time, and your answer certainly helps support that idea. The reason I am looking for the alternative, a four wheeled (trucked) carriage of the style used for cannons, is based on a statement I came across some time ago concerning the use of carronades on smaller craft with limited armament such as dispatch boats and revenue cutters. In these cases the carronade was mounted on a ‘four wheeled’ carriage ‘as would a cannon of similar weight of shot’. The reason given was simple: it was quicker to relocate a carriage of this type than the more common traversing mounting. In the heat of the moment a bow-chaser could be rigged or the weight of a broadside increased considerably faster and with a ship the size of Pickle (pierced for 14 guns but carrying four) this could be vital. So this practice does seem to make sense and if it was used prior to Trafalgar there is a good chance Pickle had carronades on cannon-type carriages. If the practice was common I would have expected to find drawings of carriages of this type prior to 1808. It is possible the four wheel trucks that came in around 1808 to 1815 are in response to this requirement, so I may be barking up the wrong tree. I asked in the hope of someone producing a drawing or reference from 1805 or earlier that would at least prove it was a viable idea. Regards, Bruce

I could use some help please. I’m looking for plans for an English 12 pounder carronade carriage circa 1800-1805, the four wheeled type used on smaller sloops/schooners. Maybe the answer is to scale up/down another carriage, but I would like to know the rules if this is the case. Thanks, Bruce

Hello Jfinan, You have received a variety of points of view, so good luck with making your choice. My tool of choice is the Unimat SL but it can only handle modest lengths without using an accessory called 'extensions'. Bob in post #7 laid it all out. As Bob has said, the bits and bobs to add to the lathe to make it useful can cost a lot but, since I don't know where you live, thought it worth pointing out that in the UK the Sherline is not well known, expensive and (as far as I know) only available through one source. The Sherline has a good reputation but the North American market seems to have 95% of them. The second hand Unimats in the UK will probably hold their value but avoid the red plastic 'UNIMAT BASIC' which is everywhere. It is a toy and you will do better with a drill and a steady hand.

I feel the same way when I am reading about CAD, but when I am at my workbench with a piece of wood I use what I have and am satisfied.

... and Indi and Aggie were both from the same yard, subject to the same decisions and whims. As the only two of the class from that yard, the odds are certainly with you. The NMM folio I mentioned in an earlier post is a long shot but worth a phone call. I have usually had such queries answered within a week, quicker if it does not require a physical check. Imperieuse would be a great subject. Bruce

Hello druxey. Maybe I am not seeing something. It is described as Wylie in the post. I know it is more modern (Wylie died about 1974?). Bruce

Trust is hard to come by in research. I hope that my prodding of the subject is welcomed, but feel free to say if you have already covered all sources. Until recently, I earned my crust as a researcher. Now I have retired it is difficult to break old habits so I dug a bit. Have you asked the NMM about the contents of folio ADUB0340? The description of this folio is sparse but includes a misspelling of the ship's name and may not have come up in routine searches. With no dates, it may or may not be your Agamemnon. As the only other class ship produced at Bucklers Yard was Agamemnon, I see why the Indefatigable plans are such an appealing prospect. Bruce

It was about the time that the powers-that-be started to get serious about standardization and, who knows, it may have reached the subject of framing/windows? The Pocock painting in post #289 above has some merit as a source: it was a contemporary work by an artist who was famed for doing research on his subject. He may have 'blinged up' some aspects but there was no profit in changing such details as windows. If he included eight windows he probably did not think the ship had seven. Has anyone looked at the logs of the ship? Details crop up, especially around the time work in a dockyard happens. HTH Bruce

Chris, it's me again. Harold Wyllie painting “Launch of the 'Agamemnon', Buckler's Hard, 1781” Again, don’t know what you have already seen so apologies if this is ‘old news’. Bruce

Hello Chris, I certainly don't want to second-guess what research you have already done but this stern view of Aggie was painted in 1810. The artist was Nicholas Pocock, highly regarded as a researcher with a reputation for fidelity and detail. The painting depicts Aggie in June 1796. HTH Bruce

Yank? Things have changed since my last visit to Oklahoma.

'Splicing the Mainbrace' is sailor-speak for 'have a drink'. Good looking model. Regards, Bruce