Kevin-the-lubber
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Everything posted by Kevin-the-lubber
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nb. I should have mentioned, that deckhouse is a printed version, so you can see what I mean that the revell parts are actually pretty damn good. To be honest I only made this because it looked like fun to do and it's so much easier having it as a single piece. Plus the roof gets negative plank lines.- 444 replies
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Thanks Ian. Yes, I'll settle for that, the good thing about making cock-ups is that sometimes you do it better second time round. Go on, join the club, put her back into the dry dock.
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Thanks for the additional pics Bill, my log is up now. That's quite a result you've got on the masts lining up, I can tell from here, with a tradesmans' practised eye, that they are absolutely true. I'll be watching these next stages with particular interest as the rigging stage terrifies me, but also because I don't think I can live with the revell mouldings for the CS ratlines.
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I’m trying the Vallejo ‘Old & New Wood’ paint set used by Bill as I really like that look. Air-brushing has still been a bit hit and miss with clogging mid-spray. Thinning solves it but I think I’ve been over-thinning the Vallejo model air paints and what works best is the plain paint plus a few drops of flow improver. 5/1/22 Morning: Inked in most of the plank lines. Really difficult to pick out the moulded lines to follow and if I’m honest, it looks like the shipwrights used whatever old planks were knocking around, some a bit wide, others a bit thin. Evening: stripped the deck back to bare plastic with Isopropyl Alcohol and a tooth brush. Much easier than expected, not something I’d be fearful of next time. And strangely satisfying. What a pig’s ear I made of those lines. I don’t know why I thought I could just follow the near invisible moulding, why I didn’t make a little template. 6/1/22 Took advantage of needing to start again to sand off the lumps on the deck for locating the sail lockers and the two little strips under the fore winch which make no sense at all. Bracing rods on these kinds of machines are invariably a few inches up the legs. Neither bits are necessary and just make inking the plank lines more difficult. Undercoating again, along with the fore deckhouse, hopefully better this time, now that I have a formula for avoiding the air-brush clogging.
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I’m set on this not becoming another Victory stern, where I spend months and months solving a single problem rather than having fun with the kit, so I’ve more or less abandoned the idea of a DIY printed deck, in part because there would be other engineering problems to resolve even if I did get it printed – at 2mm thick an object of this size will curl post-printing and would need reinforcing on the back. I switched to the kit deck and blending the joints by filing a chamfer on each part then filling and sanding. What I’ve ended up with is reasonable, hard to be sure if it makes much difference until the painting is finished but this is what they look like primed. (I've masked the deckhouse slots with blutak to stop paint building up in these and other key location holes).
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As many will know, in their wisdom Revell split the main deck into three parts, making for seams across the middle. This is typical of the kit in some ways, there’s no apparent logic to the splitting of some items. Thus we have separate fore and aft railing sections while built-in along the sides, with more ugly seams and flash to deal with rather than a continuous rail and a bunch of stanchions that need to be glued (the logical approach); likewise a series of pin rails when one long rail would give a better modelling outcome. This is a shame in my view, because the detail quality is generally very good and, if the kit was cut logically it would be a dream to build and yield a good result in most hands. The deck joints bothered me, along with the positive plank lines. I don’t want to spend £70 on a laser cut wood top because this build is just for fun and learning. So I spent about a week experimenting with making a resin printed deck instead. Drafting the model in 3D was straightforward, probably only took 2 or 3 hours. Printing was more troublesome. The idea was to do ‘jigsaw’ joints, following the line of staggered plank ends and make it in 3 or 4 sections due to machine limitations. However, for reasons I don’t yet fully understand, I could not get the joint edges to print true to the design, they keep coming out with a gentle curve across the end such that the joint gets more and more gappy. The photo shows what I mean. I know what’s happening – the curing of each layer is causing microscopic shrinkage that pulls the edges towards the centre – but not how to prevent it. I’ve tried various permutations both design-wise and printing-wise without success. Even looked at whether I could get the deck printed as one piece by a commercial outfit, but it’s too big for anything other than exotic industrial machinery. There are probably a few more different ways I could try to get this printing true; one of them is to at least give it a go on the filament printer, but I’m not too optimistic about this being accurate enough.
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13/12/21 I started looking at this kit 2 or 3 weeks ago, as an ‘in-between’ project while I take a break from the Victory. The kit is from 1976, it’s a bit brittle and there’s a lot of flash, some of it so heavy that I’ve needed to look at other logs in order to know what to trim off and what to leave. While I don’t want to get into 3D gymnastics on this kit, I’m re-making most of the deck furniture i.e. the windlass rotor, winch rotors, fife rails, sail lockers, cabins etc, as these are very quick and easy to model in F360 and equally easy to print. I wouldn’t say the end result is better than the kit part, detail-wise, just cleaner/crisper and I get to duck dealing with some joints.
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Well, that was what I was trying to achieve, a replacement deck - but I think, rather than hijack Bill's log I'd better start my own for the CS. I'll do that this evening and explain all.
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A common complaint, I suspect, especially at this time of the year. I don't drink much but I swear modelling could drive me to it yet. I'll start a log soon-ish Bill, I suspect that for you it'll be somewhat deja vu as your log is my primary reference.
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That’s a useful tip Bill, note to self to slightly enlarge the mast holes in the lower decks. I remember thinking, during dry fits, that this was a risky area and once painted likely to be even more so. Isopropyl alcohol is also good for dissolving acrylic paint, and doesn’t dissolve glue (but does make putty go soggy). I know this because I had to strip the entire deck of the CS yesterday evening after making a mess of inking in the plank lines through guessing where they should be where I could barely see them under the base coat - I’m doing the same as you, Vallejo old and new wood. But I have a plan… In passing, I’ve been experimenting, over the last two or three weeks, with re-making the deck in sections as a proxy for doing the whole victory hull and upper decks and learned that this would be extremely difficult to get right. Probably extremely expensive too, with all the trial and error. Getting ‘seamless’ joints in the printing is the problem and not even commercial hobby 3D printing outfits seem able to print a whole deck of this size. No doubt industrial businesses could, but at quite a cost. So at least I now know to let go of those thoughts and, as I feel ‘victory energy’ returning, where to direct that energy when I pick up on it again.
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I just fish them out… not so difficult when, 8 years in, I still haven’t glued the hull together 🤪
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Bill, I think your build will stand as a good reference for doing it well in a fast timeframe. It’s also the best step by step log I’ve come across. I was looking at where you’ve got to, a day or two back, and thinking ‘that’s a lot of ship’, compared to the CS for instance. I’ll watch with interest as you progress into the rigging.
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Too true. Because there's so much flash I've separated most parts from the sprues, cataloguing as I go, so that I can try for fit and see what's what. It's not too bad once it's cleaned up but I've started resin-printing remakes of some of the deck furniture like the fife rails, windlass, bollards etc along the way. It just feels easier to do these quick and simple bits in resin rather than spend the day sanding. And now that I've primed the hull and deck it's much easier to see what needs attention in that area - as you say, the mis-alignment is a bit of a pain: even as I write I'm debating whether to sand off the 'bars' across the leading edge of the bow, which are totally misaligned, and use some evergreen to tidy that up. Already did that to the edging on the stern and it's an improvement.
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Likewise, many thanks Richard. This may spur me on to spend some time to learn Rhino enough to make the move from F360 before my trial period runs out. Re' sound - I just had to change the audio source in VLC. No doubt if I could find the controls for source in media player the same would apply. One of those mysteries of software for which life is too short for solving!
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Once scaled, the bars come out as 0.1mm - 0.15mm wide, presumably the same for thickness and the gaps between bars appear the same.. I'm afraid that's just too small. Any gap less than 0.3mm tends to become bridged by the resin which is what I expect to happen here. If it wasn't for the risk of damaging the FEP (or worse, the screen!) I'd give it a whirl but the chances of success are so small I'd best pass. Sorry! I guess this is why they're PE.
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If you post a sketch and it looks feasible I’ll have a go and, if successful post them to you. I know from working on the 1/100 Victory that I can print bars at 0.3mm but I’ve concluded that this is just about my lower limit. Any smaller than that and the chances of a successful print, let alone being able to remove the supports, become too small. Maybe ask Flyhawk for some spares? You’re doing such a fine job of this model that you’re selling 1/700 to us and, if I was the manufacturer, I’d give you all the spares in the world!
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You've made a nice job of that. My kit is from 1976 and, if yours was in similar shape, you've done well to get the parts looking as good as they do.
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The same to you Bill, Ian, Marc et al, I’ve enjoyed the chatter on all the logs, learned a lot of useful things and, as ever, been amazed at what people do with these ships. I hope everyone has a great few days with some nice goodies under the tree.
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I will be doing a build log presently but probably not until I've at least got the deck in, otherwise I'll start obsessing over trivial detail. I'm more tempted to go down the meccano route, I love making gizmo's and this is a good excuse to make my own toys. Ian, with that red paintwork and yellow wheels I assume it goes extremely fast, yes? 🙂
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Thanks Bill, seen that and will incorporate it. I’m keeping this one fairly simple, no 3D gymnastics, just remaking those bits where it’s as easy to do so rather than fettle all the flash off the kit parts. I bet this was a great, great kit when first released, I love the ingenuity of the location pinning etc, but nowadays there are parts where it’s hard to tell where the part ends and the flash begins. I wonder if kit modelling is in decline, otherwise you’d think the kit manufacturers would stump up for new extrusion dies, after 60-odd years of wear and tear. They’ll need to watch out, within 5 or 10 years max someone will have redone the entire thing as a printed kit (not me though) and flash will be a thing of the past. Copper tube - makes sense. The only issue I’d see there is that copper is quite ductile though much more easily worked than, for instance, stainless. I haven’t yet revisited making new masts for her ladyship, but will do once I’ve reached a natural pause point on the CS. I saw you bought the Vallejo old and new wood set, think I’ll also give that a go and, if I get as nice a result as you, carry that over to the Vic.
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That looks very nice Bill, I'll be wanting one of those presently. I've switched to the CS for a while, chalk and cheese in terms of headscratching compared to the Vic. Your spar tests above are surprising, it looks like wood is less bendy than carbon fibre.
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Me too I'm afraid, at least probably. Wrongly thought it would spawn something into my calendar, apologies!
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That’s thinner than a standard sheet of copy paper. Extraordinary. I imagine they deform at the slightest slip of the fingers.
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I think you’re probably going to cover this, Richard, but the main thing for me would be fairing the hull, especially when there are a lot of stations. But in any case I’m interested in seeing how a pro goes about the development of a hull, from the methodology/workflow perspective, what you do that I don’t even know about, that makes it work. The next bit may be a bit arcane, and possibly in the ‘not essential’ box, but how you develop the lateral lofting rails (splines) in the sheer view, when you (typically) have the section profiles and a sheer view. In most of the drawings I’ve seen these are present, but I’m thinking these must be mathematically derived rather than arbitrary. I’ve forgotten most of my old pattern development skills now, but logic tells me the position of the lines on the section profiles is a product of sections relative to each other. As tracing plans alone leads to cumulative error (hence the fairing question), it would be handy to understand how to derive true lines if possible. The same applies to all lines on the plans actually, if there are tried and trusted ‘trade’ methods to resolve tracings of drawing lines (or photos) which would be a foot thick in real life, into their true dimensions. I hope that makes sense. Which reminds me, need to check the CS library this weekend.
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