DaveBaxt

Some really nice clean and tidy work. How are you finding the build compaired to your other builds. Any anomalies with the kit parts etc. Good to see another Aggie, especially at 1:64

Fantastic looking boats David and well worth the time it has taken you to make them and  I definitely liked your approach.

12 hours ago, DavidEN said:

Hi Dave,

I also had the problem with the missing lower chain plate straps and spent some time making them myself. I subsequently discovered that Caldercraft had included the missing ones on the photo etch next to the ships wheel.

 

Regards,

David

Once again you have come to my rescue. You have probably saved me quite a few £££££. I also take my hat of to you sir for making these items as they do look a bit fiddly for my skill level. 

           After gluing in the deadeyes and their associated strops into the recesses I have noticed that the aft group of deadeyes on the foremast channels are shown on the NMM museum plans as having only 3 large deadeyes rather than depicted in the Caldercraft drawing which has 4 of these 5mm deadeyes . The AOTS Diana drawing also has 3. I have no idea why Caldercraft have this as different but wonder if this was changed at a later date and hence the extra two lower chain plate straps inside  the steering wheel packet.  Unfortuantey I just copied the Caldercraft channels for the number of recessess required and it would require me to make the forward channels again and feel it is too late for this as I do not have enough boxwood  of this size in stock .I just wish I had at least stuck with the other drawings and not used the Caldercraft channels for guidence in this instance, although no doubt they have their reasons for doing it differently.Best regards Dave

Continued with work on the the channels and blackened the many small chain plates ,links and preventer links.. After visiting my local modelling shop I noticed they supplied different diameters of piano wire. So I decided to use lengths of 0.8mm piano wire instead of brass for additional strength when securing the channels to the hull. 

             I have had difficulty with using the Caldercraft deadeye strops in the past so this time I glued them into the recesses using epoxy resin ,hoping this would make a much stronger job. I also made a couple of small tools using dowl and piano wire for turning the deadeyes. For the record I now wish I had used boxwood deadeyes instead of walnut especially the smaller 3.5mm size as these were of poor quality as a lot of the holes were spaced in the incorrect positions and don,t look to good. Unfortunately I have now glued these into position and I am unable to remove them without damaging the channels.The apoxy resin is super strong but I think the next time I will definitely not be using the Caldercraft walnut deadeyes and their strops.

Brass wire replaced with piano wire.

Another anomaly with the kit was the number of longer Lower chain plate links part no 259 for the 5mm deadeyes required is 42 ,whereas the number supplied was only 40. The number of preventer links supplied confirms  this shortage, there being 42 of these. I wonder if anyone else has had this problem. So I need to get in touch with Caldercraft as I don,t think I can make these.

here is a sample of the missing lower chain plate strop part no 259. There might be a problem here as these are part of a brass photo sheet but still hoping Caldercraft can supply the missing two links.

Unfortunately my skill at trying to sand an even taper without causing any bevelling was a bit limiting so I found a better way of tapering the channels using my Proxxon milling m/c and placing a 0.5mm thin strip of walnut under the outer edge of the channels and then machining one side. I then turned over the piece and then placed a 1mm strip under the outboard edge and then machined another 0.5mm off the othe side outer edge, tapering down. This gave me taper from the inner edge of 2.7mm down to 2mm. This is probably over scale slightly but I didn't want to go any thinner as I was concerned about still maintaining some strength in the piece. Hopefully the brass pins will also add a bitof strength.

               I have had a few issues of securing the Caldercraft deadeyes in the past but have decided to persevere with their chain plates and fit them onto the channels before fitting the channels to the hull as I am hoping now will be more accessable. As for fitting the channels to the hull I drilled right through from front to back and sharpened the ends of the brass rods and with a good tap with a small hammer penetrated the hull . I still need to remove some more material from the inside surface of the channel so that the channels will sti perpendicular to the mast , at present they are sitting square to the hull/tumblehome and don't look right.. II am considering using 5min epoxy resin to secure the brass pins into the channels and hull but just using UPV for the wooden parts. Although I have douple check the positions but still worry if they ever needed to come off again............

        I am waiting on mantua channels brackets to arrive as there are not enough brackets that came with the kit so want them to all look the same.

Nice soldering work and love the ebony deadeyes

Channels

                Rather than continue with securing the 18lb  Cannon to the gun deck I thought it would be prudent to fit the channels first to prevent any damage to the gun barrels during the above process. I apologize for what appears to be a lot of toing and froing and after looking more closely at the NMM plans, it was my intention to fit the mizzen channel as can be seen in a copy of NMM drawing (below). Although this drawing differs from the drawing given in the book AOTS Diana and the plans produced by Caldercraft, however  the photos of various models of the HMS Diana in the AOTS book shows the  same layout as the NMM plans.Below is a copy of the shear plan from NMM archives.

I have asked the question on a thread I created as regards to which type of mizzen channel should be fitted for the mizzen mast and is open to some interesting discussion. Here is the discussion in question.

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/36616-position-of-mizzen-channel-on-atois-class-frigate-1794/#comment-1046158

          After making the shorter mizzen channels as depict in the above NMM drawing I then realised that due to  either the height of the lower gun ports being slightly higher up on my model ( due to perhaps the fitting of bloomfield cannon )or a slight miscalculation on my behalf of the position of fitting the ships shear lines , I have found that the distance between the mizzen channel and the top of the lower gunport is too narrow to fit a shorter chainplate of any substance ,that is if I were to fit the shorter mizzen channel in its lower position. As I had origonally taken the position of both upper and lower gun ports at an earlier time and also when I was unaware of the possibility of fitting a  shorter mizzen channel I have decided to continue to fit the longer channel higher up, as depict by the AOTS Diana book.It would apear that a number of recent modellers have followed this approach and what can also be seen from the above drawing albeit in feint lines.So can both positions be correct?

            Here are a couple of photos of the channels I have made from what I think is boxwood. Still some work to do such as clean up the profiling of the edges and to shape the inside edge to fit the hull. I am finding the use of scrapers against the grain and working in different directions quite a difficult and time consuming task and feel i may need to use a small file to touch up a number of areas.I  have also tried to taper the channels which also need some finishing off as can be seen with the use of a 12" rule. I have also drilled though the channels to take 0.7mm brass rod to help with securing the channelsinto position.

Very realistic Ensign!

Good to hear you have another project to get a grips with and an excellent choice. Also agree with changing the blocks and using ropes of scale. I look forward to seeing your weathering techniques. Although I have never tried the skill myself( apart from the copper plates) it is a very interesting subject all the same.

Cheers guys for your early responses. Allan the three books  you have put at the top of your list I already have. At the moment I am working my way through the 18th century but sometimes get drawn into an earlier period.Perhaps I will take a look at the Seawatch books .  trippwj , I am pretty much interested in all the things you have mentioned , however building model ships is my main interest but definately getting pulled towards the history of sail ,especially some of the great battles and which ships were involved and what types were used. I am pretty much interested in anything to do with the age of sail. I have also found a local book shop which sells the magazines Model Shipwright and thinking of buying a number of these as I am finding these quite interesting too . Something whaich I asked about on a previous question I posted.

I have a birthday coming up shortly and I have been asked what I would like for a present to celebrate such an event. I thought this would be a good time to add to my Library of books. I am looking at something second hand and have narrowed it down to 2 possibly 3. books. The first is 'The Master Shipwrights Secrets' by Richard Endsor. This is actually new for just over £50 the second hand one I can get for £38. I am also looking at  'Ships of the line'Vol 2' by Brian Lavery for £60 or the same book but vol 1 and 2 for £80

     I now feel I have several books of worth in my collection by Lees, Lavery and Goodman and one or two AOTS books but do not have the afore mentioned titles . So my question is although perhaps these books are not a must have but rather nice to have, are they value for money. personally I am thinking of 'The Master Shipwrights secrets' by Richard Endsor as I have read several reviews including one by Chris Watton. However I am also wondering if it would be more cost effective to go for both volumes of ' Ships of the line, for £80

    Thank you for any thoughts or reviews on the above books.Best regards Dave

11 hours ago, RossR said:

Thanks.  I have been running lines through the blocks or spliced eye and you have to create tension by winding up the secondary lines.   Your solution eliminates that.   

To be fair it was not my initial idea but perhaps one of the modellers who has built the Diana before me. So I thank you who ever you are and apologize for not acknowlegding your help at the time.

9 minutes ago, RossR said:

I would love it if you shared some details on how you rigged the Servomatic with the alligator clips.  Are you able to adjust the distance between them?

Yes. You just find yourself some dowel to fit through  the hollow tube and reduce the diameter at the ends of the dowel to get them into the alligator clips. I also glued them onto the dowel  using superglue. I measured what I thought  would be the correct length  on the model plus a little bit more and just pushed one of the dowels to the correct distance and drilled holes either side of the servomatic uprights thus locking the distance between the alligator clips. Both  clips are adjustable but I only adjusted one in this case. There is proabably a more scientific way of adjustng the distance between the clips but this way works ok. I have used it quite a few times already and is very handy for exactly this sort of job. Hope this helps

There has been some confusion for me as regarding how the breeching ropes are attached to the bulwarks.I have read somewhere that it was tied to the ring and ringbolt by 2 half hitches. however not seeing much evidence of this from other than by Jason( Beef Wellington) I decided to post the question here on MSW.So another big thank you to Allan for finding this great explaination for me.Here is the lik to the discussion

I have decided to follow the above piece supplied by Allan  which states that evidence from a drawing in the Science Museum that a thimble is inserted into the ring and the Breeching is seized to this at the throat and then knotted. I am unsure what kind of knot is used but decided on a half hitch due to knots tend to tighten when subjected to heavy sudden loads . I did not add the thimble  but added and  a seizing to the ends of the ropes as well as the throat seizing  as mentioned.Unfortuantely I do not have any tan coloured seizing rope but have ordered some and whilst I am waiting I will be  using black seizing whilst working on the guns which will be hidden under the deck above..

According  to the tables previously shown, the Breeching ropes work out at 0.7 diameter and 133mm long. I am not sure if this included the excess for wrapping around the bends or not so maked the 133mm on the breeching fope and the above is what it looked like. I used diluted pva glue on the ropes in the hope they would be easier to work with and will use some drops of superglue to stick them down in places if need be.The length of the Breeching rope worked out well from the previous table but the length of the gun tackle was much longer than the 85mm. from the tables.    It was more like 150mm, so not sure if the extra was the wrapping around itself. For the gun hooks I used some copper eyelets and shaped them to look like hooks. After seizing the 0.25 mm rope around the single block , I soaked the block in pva glue and after allowing the pva to dry, I drilled the block to take the copper hook( blackened) I also did the same to the double block. Anyway here is the first completed cannon but still need to glue in place . Just another 25 to go.

Thank you Gregory, for your input, it is always welcome. I have the same drawing and for most part and is probably correct, however I have seen so many different versions and thought I would try and get to the bottom of it. Easier said than done. 

18 hours ago, allanyed said:

Caruana gives the following description on page 384 of The History of English Sea Ordnance Volume 2.   

Allan

I have gone over and re-read  everything which has been lay down in this thread and would like to thank everyone for their help  and paicence in this matter. So I think at the moment  I am between a rock & a hard palce if I am honest . However In this case I will try and follow the above literature and follow the above testement posted by Allan. Another question I am afraid. In reference to the part whereby the above script mentions the period by 1790 and according to a drawing in a sience museum a  thimble is formed in the eye of the of the breeching rope and a throat seizing to secure it. It then goes on to say the rope is then knotted. What kind of knot are we talking about here ( If anyone actually knows please answer) What are we talking about here Bends,  half hitches or what? As previously metioned, knots are not such a good idea due to self tightening or is the thimble taking all of the strain? Sorry as there always seems to be more questions to each answer. Thank you once again for your help and patience in this matter. Best regards Dave

1 hour ago, allanyed said:

Caruana gives the following description on page 384 of The History of English Sea Ordnance Volume 2.   

Allan

Thank you for that wonderful reply and so for my date of 1794 it would be a throat splice and a half hitch. Great stuff

53 minutes ago, druxey said:

Yes, Richard Endsor's excellent books are from the 1670 to 1690 period - about a century earlier. Look at some of SeaWatchBooks' offerings that cover the 1760 to 1790 time period. 

 

There were excellent articles on 18th century ship construction by David White in Model Shipwright years ago. They appeared in issue numbers as follows:

 

On Traditional wooden shipbuilding:  47, 49. 51, 53, 55, 57, 59, 61, 63

 

Understanding ships' draughts: 46, 48, 50, 52, 54, 58

 

Thank you Druxey , I will certainly look out for those issues. Thats a great help 

You are too kind Allan and the photos would be welcome. I can see for the photos in the journal she is much more ornate than the Artois class frigate and the level of skill in these photos is another level especially the carvings. Regarding the journals, perhaps I could start with the later yearly ones to begin with. However I am currently saving my pennies for a copy of the book  'The Master shipwrights Secrets' by Richard Endsor but wonder if it is too early a period for my current study. Thank you again Allan for your input and quick response. Dave

Regards the above. I have read somewhere that the Cannon breechings are tied to a ring and an eye bolt, and I think a half hitch knots were used as are a number of models I have found..All the photos and drawings I can find are that the rope is seized to metal ring and according to Mondfields book 'Historic ship models' a throat siezing followed by two normal siezing are used. Any thoughts or clarity on thls? Perhaps One was used for a specific period and another for a different period. Laverys book 'The Arming and fitting of English ships of war ' Also states that the breeching ropes are seized to the ring bolt.At the moment I am specifically interested in the late 18th century .Was one used for certain size cannon.? As neither methods are permanent clearly the one which is tied could be altered during battle if the breeching were to be stretched in anyway . If newer ropes were used for whatever reason then perhaps the ropes would stretch further initially, rather than ropes which have been used for some time and the slack taken up either by seizing ot tieing. Perhaps ropes were even pre stretched prior to use. Just some of the issues running through my head prior to rigging the cannon on my HMDiana 1794

Just picked up a very good copy of the 2012 . I didn,t realize that it was an Annual and came out every year. Until I received the book. My primary reason for buying , was for the construction of the Frigate Minerva and learning something about plank on frame and scratch  building. Although at this stage being a relative beginner, I feel I am a long way from scratch building. I have also seen a few other additions of Model Shipright come up second hand from time to time. I got this one for £10 plus delivery. I liked the look of what was inside and just wondered what peoples  ideas of these books in general are and other years published?  Best regards Dave.

Thank you Allan for your input and confirming what was also in David Whites AOTS Diana. In his drawing he also has two eye bolts either side of the gun port and has these horizontal as I have fitted them. I am unsure if this is accurate but thought it would be better this way for accomidating the gun tackle hooks and does not have rings like the eyebolt below for the breeching rope  which is verticle ( not yet fitted on the below photograph for ease of fitting) I have looked at many different photographs and there seems to be many different ways to fit these eyebolts bolts

Great marking off in preparation for planking Mark and it must have taken a lot of time to get that just right. I look forward to seeing  how you progress with the planking even though its a shame to cover up such fantastic framing. 

Good to see you back at it David. It is always difficult to resume work after a break from a model. It is almost a year since I worked on my Endeavour and sometimes regret not finishing her before starting on my HMS Diana.

               Beautiful looking boats David especially those frames. Not too far to go now so keep at it. I am looking forward to seeing another beautiful  finished Diana. Good luck David and thanks for your help.

Received the required rope from Ropes of scale and it does look rather good to start on the gun tackle. .The sizes for the 18lb Cannon Breeching ropes work out to be 0.7mm and 0.25mm for the gun tackle. I have made a small jig for drilling the inside of the bulwarks to take eyebolts and rings for securing the cannon. There is also an additional 2 holes for the outer eybolts for swinging the cannon fore and aft. The idea of the jig is to stop me drilling too deep and coming out the other side. Hopefully once I have drilled all the holes I am hoping to use the jig for ensuring I get the correct lengths of Breeching ropes.I