glbarlow

I see there is a pinned posting from David Antscherl at the top of this forum. I'm not him, he's the expert. I have and love his books on building the Swan. Therefore I post this with some trepidation. My thoughts on 2nd planking: Spiling, or tapering, to fit a flat strip of wood on a surface that curves both front to back and top bottom is no small feat. It defies the grain and natural tendency of the wood and is one of the more fascinating, though perhaps tedious, aspects of shipbuilding. There are whole books written on this topic by modelers far more expert than me using precise methods that are far more exacting than what I do. Nonetheless, I thought I’d share my process. I did this for the lost log of the Pegasus and got some nice responses, so here it is again. It's the result of the practice I've gained from completing 14 hull plankings (ok, 7 models twice planked:-) First and foremost for the 2nd planking to look work you have to have had a good first planking, more than structure and shape it is the surface for the 2nd planking. If it’s wrong you aren’t going to make up for it with the 2nd planking. The first planking doesn’t need to look pretty, but it has to be shaped and sanded to be the hull you want the 2nd planking to become. The photo shows my pretty simple set of tools used for planking. For a strip of planking to reach from the bow to the stern, the bow portion (and in some cases the stern) has to be splined or tapered. In order to have the same number of strips at the wider waist as you have at the narrower bow. The key is how to make the math work and how to achieve the double twist to accommodate both curves, deck to keel, bow to waist to stern. I don’t do scarfing or lay battens, I’m too lazy for the first and don’t find a need for the second. With most ships as with the Vanguard the planks closest to the deck will fit full width, the key is not to take too much advantage of this, you pay for it later by not being able to get the lower planks to work out right. I first set the planks for the main wale as full width (actually the base, the wale is achieved by doubling up on those planks after sanding the fully planked hull), below that I tapered, above it I went full width. I chose to go up from the wale first and then down, but either way works. I cut and overlap lengths above the wale to show the butt joints similar to the decking, but choose to go the full length of the ship below the wale, just my choice. The second thing I do is the garboard, a full width plank along the keel. I usually cheat a bit and put a second plank here, tapering the bow side only slightly. The garboard is historically accurate, but in the case of modeling ensures you have a good base and a consistent point to measure from for tapering the planks below the wale The color differences are due to variation in the planks provided with the kit, since I'm painting the hull it's just the one I picked up next. Measure what? I use a piece of paper and measure the distance from the bottom of the wale to the top of the garboard at the waist and divide by 5. Since I’m using 5mm wide planks I then know me how many planks I’ll need to cover the ship. So if the measurement is 100mm, then I need twenty 5mm planks to cover the waist. I do that same measurement at the bow and divide that number by the number of planks above. If the length was 60mm I know the plank width at the bow has to be 3 mm to get those same 20 planks to fit to the stem of the bow. Pretty simple. All I have to do is use my Exacto knife with a really sharp blade (I change blades a lot) and cut the plank from 5 to 3 mm wide. Here’s the trick though, where to start the cut to begin the taper. I’m sure there are much more methodical and mathematical ways to do this, but I just let the plank tell me. I cut the angle required at stem, bevel it, then matching the end of the plank to the bow, lay the plank along the length of the one above it. It fits snug along the waist and for most of the length of the ship, where it crosses the plank above as it closes in on the bow stem is where I mark with a pencil to start the taper. I mark a 3 mm width at the stem end, lay my heavy steel rule across the two marks I’ve now made, and cut the taper. If the taper start point is too close to the stem, it will be very hard to get the plank to lay flat, if it is two far from the stem a S-curve will begin to develop with the distance between the last laid plank not being proportionately equal at the waist and bow. If this happens I can adjust by where I cut the next plank or if I see it happening soon enough, toss that plank and cut a new one. As long as I carefully locate my marks it doesn’t happen, its just when I get rushed or bored. I re-take the measurements every 5 planks or so to make sure I’m still on target, it doesn’t vary much but its worth checking to avoid very narrow stem plank widths as you reach the garboard. Measuring in this way gives me a good looking bow, doesn’t require battens, is simple enough to do, and is made possible by using cyano, not PVA glue. The cyano can be a bit messy, I may be a little over generous with its use, but this comes off easily with sanding and allows the process to move along more quickly. I’d be more careful with the cyano to avoid staining if I was leaving the hull natural (as I did using cherry wood with the Pegasus) but since I’m painting, smooth is all that’s required. This same process applies to the stern for some but generally not the majority of planks. Here is more important to let the plank follow its natural flow. This will create triangular gaps that are filled with stealers. Simply cut triangles cut to fit the length and width of those gaps unless you want to go all out and scarp them in. Again, I’m painting and scarping the hull, this would be wasted effort for me (unless you enjoy knowing and doing it then by all means). I do all this knowing that no matter how careful I am, I have always had to fill in some area at the waist with partial and oddly cut planks that don’t reach stem to stern. This fill is on the bottom and won’t be seen once its on the stand so I don’t worry about it, the perfectionist in me adjusts and accepts. So that’s my two cents. I’m sure as always there are better, more precise, and more expert ways to plank and several of those are included in this forum. But this way works for me and the speed and pace I chose to work. For what its worth I share it with you.

My thoughts on 2nd planking: Spiling, or tapering, to fit a flat strip of wood on a surface that curves both front to back and top bottom is no small feat. It defies the grain and natural tendency of the wood and is one of the more fascinating, though perhaps tedious, aspects of shipbuilding. There are whole books written on this topic by modelers far more expert than me using precise methods that are far more exacting than what I do. Nonetheless, I thought I’d share my process. I did this for the lost log of the Pegasus and got some nice responses, so here it is again. First and foremost for the 2nd planking to look work you have to have had a good first planking, more than structure and shape it is the surface for the 2nd planking. If it’s wrong you aren’t going to make up for it with the 2nd planking. The first planking doesn’t need to look pretty, but it has to be shaped and sanded to be the hull you want the 2nd planking to become. The photo shows my pretty simple set of tools used for planking. For a strip of planking to reach from the bow to the stern, the bow portion (and in some cases the stern) has to be splined or tapered. In order to have the same number of strips at the wider waist as you have at the narrower bow. The key is how to make the math work and how to achieve the double twist to accommodate both curves, deck to keel, bow to waist to stern. I don’t do scarfing or lay battens, I’m too lazy for the first and don’t find a need for the second. With most ships as with the Vanguard the planks closest to the deck will fit full width, the key is not to take too much advantage of this, you pay for it later by not being able to get the lower planks to work out right. I first set the planks for the main wale as full width (actually the base, the wale is achieved by doubling up on those planks after sanding the fully planked hull), below that I tapered, above it I went full width. I chose to go up from the wale first and then down, but either way works. I cut and overlap lengths above the wale to show the butt joints similar to the decking, but choose to go the full length of the ship below the wale, just my choice. The second thing I do is the garboard, a full width plank along the keel. I usually cheat a bit and put a second plank here, tapering the bow side only slightly. The garboard is historically accurate, but in the case of modeling ensures you have a good base and a consistent point to measure from for tapering the planks below the wale The color differences are due to variation in the planks provided with the kit, since I'm painting the hull it's just the one I picked up next. Measure what? I use a piece of paper and measure the distance from the bottom of the wale to the top of the garboard at the waist and divide by 5. Since I’m using 5mm wide planks I then know me how many planks I’ll need to cover the ship. So if the measurement is 100mm, then I need twenty 5mm planks to cover the waist. I do that same measurement at the bow and divide that number by the number of planks above. If the length was 60mm I know the plank width at the bow has to be 3 mm to get those same 20 planks to fit to the stem of the bow. Pretty simple. All I have to do is use my Exacto knife with a really sharp blade (I change blades a lot) and cut the plank from 5 to 3 mm wide. Here’s the trick though, where to start the cut to begin the taper. I’m sure there are much more methodical and mathematical ways to do this, but I just let the plank tell me. I cut the angle required at stem, bevel it, then matching the end of the plank to the bow, lay the plank along the length of the one above it. It fits snug along the waist and for most of the length of the ship, where it crosses the plank above as it closes in on the bow stem is where I mark with a pencil to start the taper. I mark a 3 mm width at the stem end, lay my heavy steel rule across the two marks I’ve now made, and cut the taper. If the taper start point is too close to the stem, it will be very hard to get the plank to lay flat, if it is two far from the stem a S-curve will begin to develop with the distance between the last laid plank not being proportionately equal at the waist and bow. If this happens I can adjust by where I cut the next plank or if I see it happening soon enough, toss that plank and cut a new one. As long as I carefully locate my marks it doesn’t happen, its just when I get rushed or bored. I re-take the measurements every 5 planks or so to make sure I’m still on target, it doesn’t vary much but its worth checking to avoid very narrow stem plank widths as you reach the garboard. Measuring in this way gives me a good looking bow, doesn’t require battens, is simple enough to do, and is made possible by using cyano, not PVA glue. The cyano can be a bit messy, I may be a little over generous with its use, but this comes off easily with sanding and allows the process to move along more quickly. I’d be more careful with the cyano to avoid staining if I was leaving the hull natural (as I did using cherry wood with the Pegasus) but since I’m painting, smooth is all that’s required. This same process applies to the stern for some but generally not the majority of planks. Here is more important to let the plank follow its natural flow. This will create triangular gaps that are filled with stealers. Simply cut triangles cut to fit the length and width of those gaps unless you want to go all out and scarp them in. Again, I’m painting and scarping the hull, this would be wasted effort for me (unless you enjoy knowing and doing it then by all means). I do all this knowing that no matter how careful I am, I have always had to fill in some area at the waist with partial and oddly cut planks that don’t reach stem to stern. This fill is on the bottom and won’t be seen once its on the stand so I don’t worry about it, the perfectionist in me adjusts and accepts. So that’s my two cents. I’m sure as always there are better, more precise, and more expert ways to plank. But this way works for me and for what its worth I share it with you.

Not very exciting photos, but an update on my slow progress. This is the sausage being made, only rough initial sanding at this point. I elected to complete and install the quarter galleries and then later determined I also needed to install the bow bulkhead in order to get a tight fit on the 2nd planking. The quarter galleries were pretty straight forward, but as stated in the directions it did take some beveling and sanding to get all the pieces aligned and neat. I put a light stick painter’s tape to protect the windows, the rest of the decoration will be added much later. The stern of every model I’ve built has proven to be an adventure. This model is no different, but frankly has been easier than most. I make sure all the pieces fit and adjustments are made at this point. I don’t want to be doing that when the instructions suggest and after the model is in a much more delicate stage with decoration and small parts fitted. In my case I had to trim the rear and top most portion of the gun port patterns down about 3mm, trim/sand the angle on the back side of the galleries, and make some adjustments of the stern planking to get the proper fit of the transom (not installed in the photos but was temporarily nailed to check fit. So that I could overlap the planking on the side, I first completed the stern planking. This is a trade off, it would be easier to fit the lower stern planks as they curved up from the side, but this is not a visible area and I preferred not to have the edges show from the side view, I’m confident I can make it fit as I lay the planks. First order of business for 2nd planking is to establish and lay the wales (not really, this is the first layer it will be built up later, but this is where the build up will go). The full size plan is not exactly a match to the actual gun port patterns. There is a difference between the top of the pattern and the wale position and from the main deck gun ports and that same wale position, mostly from about gun port 8 on back. I elected to go with the gun ports as it didn’t require quite as much an unnatural bend at the stern. The instructions don’t mention it, but I always install a garboard plank along the keel as a full sized, un-tapered plank. In this case I cheated a bit and added a second one. This gives a clear and easy measure point for determining tapering widths and prevents having a oddly shaped plank at the keel. From here the option is to start up or down from the wales. Up, no tapering needed, but lots of ports to cut out (I’ve really gone through some blades), down, no gun ports, but lots of tapering and bending. Doesn’t really matter, so I went up first. I will own up to a change in plans. Originally I was going to not follow the authentic paint scheme and instead use some exotic woods. For a number of reasons I elected to not do that, so Nelson Checker painted it will be. This ship has a lot of gun ports to cut out and make square, there must be at least 74 of them…

Thanks - While I understand the jig's construction, I'm still a little unclear on how to consistently get the 1mm set in from the hull. But I appreciate your's and Gil's help.

can you share a photo of the jig and process used for your gunports? At that point now on the Vanguard. Thanks.

Great work Len. I'll call mine done when I get to this stage.

Thanks Morten, glad it is of some help.

Yes, the shape is correct and the gun port patterns are all on correctly, I just didn't like the cutting and splicing I had to do to fill the open spots in order to accommodate my lack of proper splining. Must have been a motivation issue knowing there'd not only be a second planking but copper on top of that. There are no dents to speak of, the stern is correctly aligned and level, and the big bow belly of a 74 looks as its supposed to. Sometimes I just try to entertain a bit and hopefully help someone along the way. I'm glad the Pegasus log was helpful to you and others. Wish I had access to it myself right now. There were a few good lessons learned in there I'd like to remind myself by reading again. btw: the source of my trials and tribulations was waiting too long to start splining (don't believe the instructions, start tapering right away) and not tapering far enough back on plank (should start closer to frame 5 not between 3 & 4). Just because you can force a wet plank to bend tto fit doesn't mean you won't pay for doing that 3-4 planks later... also btw: that is the camera flash bouncing off the bow, not a 45 degree turn, a trick of the light, its actually a smooth turn.

There is nothing glamorous or exciting about first planking. It’s just what you do to build a model ship. It’s the foundation for the real job of the second planking. I wondered the first time I built a model why do you do two planking jobs, isn’t one enough. Fact is no it isn’t. A real ship, and advanced plank on frame models, have frames very close together. Not the case on a plank of bulkhead type model. The first planking really establishes the curves and feel of the hull, the second makes it look like a real ship. As such, and even so, I can’t say I enjoyed this job. It really was an ordeal to get “all the space filled.” A lot of this is because I have to admit to taking a half-assed approach to it knowing I’d get wood all over the model and fit it close enough. I knew I could sand it into the smooth surface it needed to be for the 2nd planking (not to mention copper plating) and I accomplished that goal. The hull is fine, it’s the right shape, its even and mostly smooth thanks to 80 grit sandpaper followed by 220 grit paper, my Black & Decker Sanding Mouse, and my elbows. But it was ugly, probably the worst I’ve ever done, and I didn’t enjoy it. I was committed to getting it done quickily and have it look right in the end, which it does. But it probably would have been easier to take the time to plan and map out the plank splining, do a better job beveling the back frames and including balsa between frames 3 and 4 and not think I had to do it in a few days. I elect to finish this stage with a couple of coats of waterbased polly with light sanding between coats with 220 grit and a light but coarser 150 grit final finish. I’ve found this not only helps even further smooth the hull, it also keeps moisture and humitiy from upsetting anything. Just serves to seal it up. Again, it looks fine as far as a smooth surface goes, but there are awkwardly fit planks (that will soon never again see the light of day so its not that big a deal) that assault the senses of the perfectionist in me.

I added an edit at the bottom of entry 2 of this log about my lessons learned from first planking on this model. I'll add pictures later as I'm not quite finished, but hoping this log will help someone someday I wanted to do the update. Short version, a British 74 doesn't have the sleek bow lines of a frigate of the same time period - who knew

Mark, Thank you, this is the info I was looking for. There are so many different sizes and types of blades it's hard to know where to start. As I said in the original post, I'll be cutting frames from boxwood as the first job (although I'll practice on less expensive scrap wood first of course). I have learned what blade works best for my Byrnes saw, I don't want to waste a lot of wood or time figuring out what is best for a scroll saw. There are a lot of experienced scroll saw users on this forum and I want to take advantage of their knowledge. I had gone to the sawbirds page earlier, it lists 10 different types each in 3-10 different sizes, although they have a recommended page I was thinking all modeler's do many much the same thing - cutting .5 - 5mm wood into various ship parts, there must be at least a short list of type and size to use that prevents splintering, cuts the wood in small intricate shapes, and minimizes waste.

Thanks, but still interested in knowing more specifically what blade to use for what purpose.

I'm moving to scratch building with the Echo cross section and buying a scroll saw to cut frames. Lots of choices there but my question is what blade (size, type, model - not manufacturer) for what purpose. Specifically what blade to use to cut frames from boxwood for the Echo, which one to use for small pieces of wood and very precise cuts without splintering, how to augment my Byrnes saw with precise cuts, curves, 90 degree turns etc. I've never owned a scroll saw. I'm sure it's a different experience than all the othe model and big boy power tools I have.

Arthur, I think the way to avoid the rippling is not to get the ply too soaked. It's a fine line between being able to shape it and it shaping itself into a waffle. The 15-20 minutes seems to work for me verse the recommended 30 minutes in the instructions. Part 167 does seem to fit ok, thanks for the heads up.

Lessons learned from installing gun port patterns: 1. Don’t build models with gun port patterns 2. When man plans God laughs 3. Outsource isn’t that bad a thing really – some nice models come already made by somebody else. 4. Are guns really necessary, I mean really. Can’t we just carry cargo. 5. Alignment and a slow pace are crucial 6. Dry-fit, decide on an approach, then throw out the approach and wing it 7. Wetting for 20 minutes is enough, at 30 the ply starts to take on a life of its own 8. I used PVA glue fro the upper patterns because I could clamp like crazy and to get the alignment right I needed the extra time it allows before setting 9. I used Cyano for the lower patterns because I couldn’t discover a way for adequate clamping (and I hate nailing stuff) and alignment isn’t an issue, just fit the tabs into the proper place in the upper forms. 10. The tops (alignment not withstanding) go on relatively easy, the roll and curves of the lower ones make for a nice way to test your finger strength. 11. Use all the tools and clamps you have (first go buy more), make a view new ones for the occasion. I cut a board to match the curve of the bow from the plans, and clamped the wet pattern to it, let it dry, then wet it again to install, having the bow pre-curved helped a lot 12. Borrow and leverage other people’s good ideas. I used a PVC pipe to wrap a wet lower form, holding it on with parachute cord to dry, the curve of the hull is significant, the pipe helped get it in shape before applying to the ship. Thanks Arthur. 13. The multiple curves at the bow (around, in, and down virtually all at the same point are not easy to shape. Patience, clamps, and finger holds are required. 14. I also needed the spacers between the inner bulwarks and patterns described in other logs. The ply tends to bow inward between frames, the spacers push it back out. I used the same MDF the frames came on; it’s the perfect width. I cut them about 1 inch wide and 1.5 inches long and made sure I didn’t block a gun port 15. I also had to install a little brace on frame 15 by the lowest aft most gun port. One pattern (where the upper and lower meet at frame 15) didn’t quite meet the frame. Using the brace to double the thickness of the frame at that point gave it something to adhere to, thus aligning it with the adjoining pattern. 16. Despite the best-made plans and efforts (this one did go better than any I’ve done before) not everything turned out perfect. That’s what 100 and 80 grit sand paper is for. I needed a little bit of wood filler at the upper bow area to help shape the severe curves there where the upper and lower pattern meet on frame 1, but that was it. I don’t want to smooth it too much until the planking is applied, it didn’t take much more than sanding along the points where the patterns meet to smooth the joints. I think it’s a bit long at the stern, but I’ll address that later. 17. Did I mention the curve at the upper bow where the bow bulkhead will be installed is tricky. BTW. The balsa filler at the bow installed earlier is crucial, the pattern would not have never wrapped smoothly without it. The kit instructions really ought to reflect this. Also BTW: My homemade stand is working out well. It's a larger version of one I've used for all my models. A base board with curved shoe molding set apart the width of the keel then an additional width of board next to that covered with felt. The last picture shows it if you look closely. It sets of the wider boards at the frame while the shoe modeling holds it steady by the keel.

Gun Ports... Yea! Nothing to say or do but get thru it with everything attached and aligned. More clamps, can never have enough clamps

Thanks Rusty, glad to see you're still here as well. I just ordered the Echo Cross Section, so I'll have your log as reference. Just like old times.

I have the store bought versions as well. I didn't consider them large enough for fairing, but I'm sure its a different for the Echo. I just ordered the kit, looking forward to starting. I agree with Rusty, the paint stirrer is a very creative approach. Thanks for sharing the photos.

A quick update on my progress: Changing my mind for I’m sure once of many times I elected not to plank the lower bulwarks with Swiss Pear, so little of it shows just didn’t seem to be a good use of expensive wood, not to mention the lime wood that came with the kit will be easier to cut gun ports. I sanded and painted each strip before installing then touched it up and sealed it with Poly after installing. I will caulk the upper decks, its not as plain as the picture would seem due to the flash, but my experiment with following the designers suggestion not to caulk deck planks is over, the butt joints just don’t stand out enough, scale issues or not. But that’s just me. The holly was a great choice. Have not installed stove yet, its just sitting there. Things can get rough during planking for me, nothing is driving me to install it until just before the main deck is installed, much later in the process. I found in my dry-fitting the forward bits to be installed on the upper deck would be a bit short, so I added little 30x10x0.5mm planks to the lower gun deck. The bits will eventually pass through the upper deck and glued to these little platforms. Completely hidden once the upper deck is installed. I also elected to cut the upper deck in half to make it easier to fit the four (instead of kit provided two) pieces. It did take a little bit of trimming. They are just lying there in the photo; I will temporarily nail it all down before installing the gun ports. While I don’t plan to fully mast this ship, I’m keeping my options open (I may change my mind yet again). I took the right size dowels and teste and mounted them. Here too a few minor adjustments were needed to get the right fit and alignment. It is very easy to do now, very difficult to do once the deck and planking are installed. I did the same thing before installing the lower gun deck and will do it again before installing quarterdeck and forecastle. I used a mouse sander to fair the edges of the gun deck off the ship to match the hull. Much quicker and easier than doing it once pinned down. Just had to go slow and constantly check the fit with the other pieces in place. I’ll do a final touch once it is pinned as the last step before starting on the gun ports. The fun and challenge of the gun port patterns are next.

Thanks, I'll have some new pictures up soon of My model.

Nice work. This or the Naiad is a future project goal of mine. Your log will be great reference.

What does a flexible sanding stick look like?

Hi Rusty, I'm thinking of building this cross section. Looks like its been a while since your last post, are you still working on it? I've been away from modeling for several years, just now coming back. Looks like you haven't slowed down.

Though eventually largely hidden by the deck above, my solution to the main bitts - a veneer attached to the kit provided MDF beam. Makes for a more natural looking fit of the bits into the beam I think and it will be slightly visable if you look hard enough at the right angle with the right light on the right day and at the right time and even think to look there. Also trimmed the bitts at the deck only because I didn't like the fit or appearance of them going straight thru the deck (they are attached to the keel an inch or so below to the lower gun deck that forms the superstructure of the model.

Mine got no taller or wider, just beveled it. I tested it against the deck beam and it fit fine. I did have to file out the beam a bit, but would have had to do that anyway. Nonetheless, any heads-up is always appreciated.