Bob Cleek

There's really no point in buying "satin" if you are going to wipe it on. If you thin gloss material and wipe it on, it's going to dry satin anyway. "Canned satin" will work, so go ahead and use it, but the problem with canned satin polys and varnishes is that they are made by adding fine "dust" to dull the gloss and you must regularly stir the stuff in the can to keep the "dust" in even suspension in the material. (Varnishes are always stirred, never shaken. Shaking ads minute bubbles to it which will ruin the finish.) Those who don't know this will often apply "satin" finishes right out of the material at top of a can in which the "satin dust" has settled and then can't figure out why their finish turned out glossy.
 
Another thing to remember is that satin polys and varnishes almost always do not have any UV inhibitor added, so they don't resist UV degradation anywhere near those with UV inhibitors. This may not be a big deal with models that are never placed in direct sunlight, but no professional yacht painter worth their salt will ever use a satin varnish on anything that's going to be exposed to direct sunlight. The proper practice for producing a satin clear finish is to use a quality gloss coating with UV protection and then flatten the gloss by hand rubbing when it's dry with rottenstone and/or pumice or a fine Scotch-brite pad to obtain a uniform satin finish. Manufacturer-compounded "satin" clear finishes only mimic a quality hand rubbed finish and are quite inferior to the real thing. 

Ok, let me put my oar in the water.  I count my self as a serious ship model builder interested in advancing the state of the art.  I have been trying to do this my entire adult life, longer than I care to admit.  Unfortunately, I have no artistic ability, and struggle to produce the clean work of the masters that post on this site. In spite of this, I do have a collection of models that I am proud of.
 
What I am able to contribute to the mix are good research skills.  Over the years I have refined these to the point where I do know what ships being modeled should look like.  When I joined this forum, I was disappointed by the time and $$$ that forum members expended on ship model kits that don’t produce models that accurately portray the subject.   I continue to be amazed that modelers obsess over details such as the shade of paint when the model’s hull lines produced by the kit are obviously inaccurate.
 
In this case, Henry, has spent his money on something that he thinks that he might enjoy restoring.  He has asked for our help.  We have pointed out that this is not a priceless antique and never will be.  Henry could have spent a lot of money on a poorly engineered kit, become discouraged, and given up.
 
Why not help Henry learn what he can about our craft while he restores this model?  For example, to rig the model, he starts with a clean slate.  Let’s encourage him to rig it properly.  When he finishes, he’ll have a better appreciation of our craft.  Maybe he’ll be interested enough to buy the SeaWatch book/plans to build a proper Dutch Yacht.
 
Roger

There's really no point in buying "satin" if you are going to wipe it on. If you thin gloss material and wipe it on, it's going to dry satin anyway. "Canned satin" will work, so go ahead and use it, but the problem with canned satin polys and varnishes is that they are made by adding fine "dust" to dull the gloss and you must regularly stir the stuff in the can to keep the "dust" in even suspension in the material. (Varnishes are always stirred, never shaken. Shaking ads minute bubbles to it which will ruin the finish.) Those who don't know this will often apply "satin" finishes right out of the material at top of a can in which the "satin dust" has settled and then can't figure out why their finish turned out glossy.
 
Another thing to remember is that satin polys and varnishes almost always do not have any UV inhibitor added, so they don't resist UV degradation anywhere near those with UV inhibitors. This may not be a big deal with models that are never placed in direct sunlight, but no professional yacht painter worth their salt will ever use a satin varnish on anything that's going to be exposed to direct sunlight. The proper practice for producing a satin clear finish is to use a quality gloss coating with UV protection and then flatten the gloss by hand rubbing when it's dry with rottenstone and/or pumice or a fine Scotch-brite pad to obtain a uniform satin finish. Manufacturer-compounded "satin" clear finishes only mimic a quality hand rubbed finish and are quite inferior to the real thing. 

B.E. Is right on..  We had a discussion recently that established WOP is just thinned, regular  varnish.
 
So, any quality varnish ( not water based ) thinned with mineral spirits is as good as it gets, at a fraction of the cost..

Minwax is seriously overpriced in the UK at least.
 
I simply make my own using Blackfriar clear polyurethane varnish (not the nasty water-based versions) diluted with White Spirit to around 50%


Used it on my Cheerful Boxwood build and recent Vanguard Fifie and Zulu builds, suits me Sir. 👍


 
B.E.

The judgment was about the original model, Nothing that Henry was doing was the target of criticism, except his choice to spend an extraordinary amount of time on an object that is not worthy of the effort.  GIGO is a rule that is difficult to break.  This subject is very unlikely to break it.  The grim color of the wood deck.... - but an "S" shape on the rail runs counter to every esthetic for the proper shape for a vessel hull that I have observed.   The time would be better expended on a new build.  A build with a subject that has a pedigree that is real and not originating in fantasy. 
I am grateful to Ab for defining a series of books, which I own, as total nonsense and are to be avoided. 
SeaWatch Books has an on going deal for a proper Dutch Yacht with plans and an illustrated building guide.
I had been wondering why yachts seemed to be so prominent in the low countries, then it came to me that they had water that went everywhere and roads that did not  A better transport all around if you had the wealth to afford it.

So good to see that picked up the thread again after your terrible loss, Doris. Hope you are well.
Judged by your work you are healing and possibly model building helps you, as it does so many of us.
Your work is beyond any criticism. Your models are works of art.
Ab

The sails are simply spectacular!
 

All Whaleboats sitting on their Back Spars. 



 

 
Just a few loose ends to tie up.  
 


More rope coils...
 

 
 

 

 
She is done!
 

 
13 Months, 628 hours. I have completed my fist Wood Ship Model, the Charles W. Morgan. 
 
Hard to believe it’s actually finished. A little over a year ago I looked this big of box sticks, took a deep breath and committed to the journey. What a fun ride it’s been. 
 
Thanks to MSW and all of the inspirational 👍 and comments a long the way.  Committing to a build log goes a long way toward staying with the project to completion. Not to mention the encouragement of our members. 
 
Time to go finish my Model Shipways Whaleboat. 
 
Cheers 🍻 

If I may be so bold as to presume to make another recommendation...
 
Such grab handles would not likely be seen on any well-found seagoing vessel. All accommodation lockers require positive latching mechanisms to keep them from flying open when the vessel heels in a seaway, especially when a locker's weighty contents are thrown against the door. (Magnets, spring clips, and spring-loaded detent balls are sometimes seen on power boats, but simply won't cut it on a sailing vessel that will routinely be thrashing around at a significant angle of heel.) Given the period, these may be a finger-hole through the door with an elbow latch behind it, so the the finger can be inserted to press down on a spring-loaded latch to unlatch the door, which would latch when pushed shut, or a "button knob" which was a knob with a button in the middle which, when pressed, released the spring-loaded latch. Less complex latches were also used, such at the usual barrel bolts and sliding or swinging bars.
 
Elbow catch for finger-hole access: 

Push-button knob locker latch (also available with a keyed locking mechanism.
 

 

 

 

 

 
Alternate, larger wardrobe latch:
 

 

 
Or, in keeping with your "theme," there are flush spring catches with finger ring pulls:
 

 

 
See generally:  Toplicht (Hamburg) https://www.toplicht.de/en/shop/innenbeschlaege/schnappverschluss-und-schnaepper/?p=3 and Davey and Co. (London) http://davey.co.uk/pdf/interior_fittings.pdf my favorite go-to sources for fine traditional yacht fittings (and priced like Tiffany's jewelry, unfortunately.)
 
 
 

I didn't find anything objectionable about your posts, Ab. I understood you completely. Others were apparently looking for some other response. I share your graciously stated perspective: "... models like this one may look interesting to a layman, but in fact they are simply rubbish. But ...  you can have a lot of fun  playing around with it." I don't see much value in spending an inordinate amount of bandwidth on such models in what is essentially an academic-level forum about serious ship modeling and related maritime history. 
 
 
I am sure Mr. Hoving has forgotten more about ship models and maritime history than I'll ever know after spending my entire life being interested in those subjects, but I do sometimes find myself compelled to comment when I see things posted which I know to be simply wrong. The endeavor of ship modeling is an exercise in the pursuit of excellence, if nothing else. Historical accuracy and technical craftsmanship and artistry are the metrics that define the efforts of serious modelers. This forum has distinguished itself in those respects. It's "where the big dogs run." One problem with social media is its inclusiveness. "Everybody's welcome" and the number of members is, for many, a measure of the quality of a site's content, which isn't necessarily true, except from the perspective of sponsors and advertisers who are primarilyi interested in the extent of their own exposure. Nevertheless, forums with high content do draw participants and there tends to be a "dumbing down" or dilution of the quality of the content as more and more less knowledgeable and experienced participants jump on the bandwagon. It seems that high quality forums tend to suffer from this phenomenon and sophisticated and experienced participants tend to drift off when they find that the time it takes them to read posts of diminishing quality and interest becomes less and less well spent. This degradation is exacerbated by the tendency of social media to increasingly attract those seeking attention and affirmation as well as those those seeking to learn and to contribute something worthwhile when they are able. 
 
So, when someone "comes into someone's log and lecture(s) them about the futility of their efforts based on... superior knowledge," they aren't doing anything "unbecoming," they're just trying to contribute something of value. In large measure, constructive criticism serves to maintain the quality of a forum's content. The post which has been criticized in actuality provided a precise and complete response to the original query, albeit not what the poster was hoping to hear: the nature of the vessel, the source and quality of the plans upon which it was based, and a candid opinion as to the historic value of the model, plus encouragement to the original poster to continue to pursue working on it if they found doing so enjoyable. I learned something of value from Ab's post and I thank him for it. I now know something more about a particular book and am now able to avoid wasting money and shelf space on a worthless volume. I can't say the same of the other posts in this thread.  
 
For those who are seeking affirmation and pats on the back, there's another well-known ship modeling forum on the internet that operates on the Special Olympics "Everybody Gets a Prize" model. The best part of social media is that there's something for everyone on the internet. If, on the other hand, one wishes to learn from teachers who know more than  they do, they have to expect that their papers are going to be graded.

Really Henry X, nobody put me up to do anything. I simply recognized the stupid design of this model, based on the book I mentioned. Of course the kit maker based his product on the  drawings in the book.
I never accused you of thinking the model was worth of anything, I just wanted to show you that models like this one may look interesting to a layman, but in fact they are simply rubbish. But as I told you, you can have a lot of fun  playing around with it. 
All I want is that the remains of the book I mentioned will disappear as soon as possible, because they create a false image of the sort of ships I love. This model is a bad example of how people can turn beautiful ships into lousy objects.
I refuse to believe that you really think I approached your thread with other intentions than doing right to history, whatever anyone else thinks about it. I did not.
Ab

Clever trick the way you offset the davit stock to cut the taper!
 

Why not? If you're faithful to the prototype, your conscience is clear. I doubt it will cost you any points in a competition, that's for sure! The judges will be so overwhelmed by the gestalt of it all, they'll never notice that the prototype accommodation was built by a kitchen cabinetmaker and not a marine joiner.    
 
 

I'm sure I'd have driven Stirling and Sons batty if they were building her for me. I'd make sure they provided for ventilation in the locker doors as well, whether that were a decorative cut-out scroll sawed into the face of the door, a row of holes along the top edge, or a panel of bronze wire or woven cane mesh to make sure things in the locker didn't get all musty and moldy, too. 
 
True, a disguised swinging latch handle could be done, but from a stress distribution standpoint, that would probably be considered some pretty poor engineering. If one was thrown off balance by a wave while holding on to such a moveable handle, I'd expect it would be pretty easy to bend the shaft of the handle. I'd file that idea under "If it's such a good idea, how come nobody else thought of it before?"  The options pictured in the Toplicht and Davey and Co. catalogs have been "state of the art" since at least the late 1800's. I've probably been aboard hundreds of fine (and not so fine) yachts over the years. I've never seen a disguised "grab and twist" locker handle. They do make one like this, though:
 
 

 

 
https://www.toplicht.de/en/shop/innenbeschlaege/vorreiber-und-riegel/vorreiber/vorreiber-1
 
These are the sorts of details that the great designers like Nathaniel and L. Francis Herreshoff, Fife, Camper and Nicholson's, and J. Laurent Giles so enjoyed inventing, many of which became trademarks of the yachts they designed.
 
There's a lot of room for artistic license in modeling, so go for it! It's such an amazingly beautiful build. Wouldn't it be wonderful when it's done to be able to walk into one of the premier yards with it in hand and tell them, "Build me one just like it full size!" 

Parenthetically, my own "dream yacht," which will forever remain just that, in this life, at least, is Giles' Dyarchy, a cutter quite similar to your model. I have copies of all Giles' original drawings and a license to build one model of her. One of these years, I hope to do so. Your build log is plowing the hard soil ahead of me!
 

 

 
Your model's saloon reminds me of a very similar old British cutter I crewed on close to fifty years ago in a classic yacht race. As is often the case, the owners had no racing experience, and so recruited a bunch of us "young bucks" thinking we'd bring home the silver for them. As it wasn't our boat, we weren't particularly concerned about "babying" her. The owners lived aboard and, unbeknownst to us, the wife had a big bowl of soured milk covered with a dish towel out of which she was trying to make her own cheese. (I kid you not!) She'd stowed it chocked in with towels and whatever else on the pilot berth above and behind the saloon settee. As we were plowing along, we had to cross the wake of a large ship and, when we did, that bowl of curds and whey became airborne with quite a bit of velocity, flying across the saloon and coming to rest on the sole after bouncing off the base of the settee on the opposite side. It wasn't pretty, but the worst thing about for the crew was trying to keep a straight face while we continued to race along despite the cries of dismay from below!  
 

If I may be so bold as to presume to make another recommendation...
 
Such grab handles would not likely be seen on any well-found seagoing vessel. All accommodation lockers require positive latching mechanisms to keep them from flying open when the vessel heels in a seaway, especially when a locker's weighty contents are thrown against the door. (Magnets, spring clips, and spring-loaded detent balls are sometimes seen on power boats, but simply won't cut it on a sailing vessel that will routinely be thrashing around at a significant angle of heel.) Given the period, these may be a finger-hole through the door with an elbow latch behind it, so the the finger can be inserted to press down on a spring-loaded latch to unlatch the door, which would latch when pushed shut, or a "button knob" which was a knob with a button in the middle which, when pressed, released the spring-loaded latch. Less complex latches were also used, such at the usual barrel bolts and sliding or swinging bars.
 
Elbow catch for finger-hole access: 

Push-button knob locker latch (also available with a keyed locking mechanism.
 

 

 

 

 

 
Alternate, larger wardrobe latch:
 

 

 
Or, in keeping with your "theme," there are flush spring catches with finger ring pulls:
 

 

 
See generally:  Toplicht (Hamburg) https://www.toplicht.de/en/shop/innenbeschlaege/schnappverschluss-und-schnaepper/?p=3 and Davey and Co. (London) http://davey.co.uk/pdf/interior_fittings.pdf my favorite go-to sources for fine traditional yacht fittings (and priced like Tiffany's jewelry, unfortunately.)
 
 
 

Fantastic! I almost feel bad being the occasion of putting you through all that, but just almost. Not quite. That's really beautiful.
 
 

You have to try for yourself. However, it is always good practice to provide locating pins for similar for items to be glued somewhere, particularly when the sufaces to be glued are small. This prevents shearing forces from being applied to glued joints, which may peel them off.

There is an old painters' rule: fat over lean. This means that you can apply oil-based paints (enamels, artists' oils, and the likes) over say nitrocellulose based primers/sanding sealers, gesso, acrylics, water colours and the likes. But not the other way around. This acrylics will not stick to any surface treated with oils. Not even sanding may help.
 
Similarly, most cements and glues do not stick very well or at all to surfaces treated with oils. The 'sticking' of glue usually is either one of the following processes or a combination of both:
 
- a physico-chemical interaction between polar surfaces (I am not doing a tutorial on chemistry here now, but it may be sufficient to say that oils results in non-polar surfaces - that's the effect of water forming droplets on a greasy surface); many contact cements and in particular also CA work like this.
 
- a mechanical interlinking with the aid of the physical presence of a 'cement' that keys into the opposing surfaces; white glue typically does this.
 
The reason that you can say cement copper plates to a wooden hull is that there is this physico-chemical interaction between the cement and the copper on side and the cement keying into the wood on the other side. If you make the wood oily, the cement doesn't have chance to hold onto the wood.
 
Not sure, why 'tung oil' and similar 'hardening' plant-based oils (lineseed oil is a traditional European variant) have become so popular among many ship-modellers. It can create a lot of problems further down the road, when you need to make alterations etc. before the oil has fully polymerised, which can take months or years.

Okay! I found what I need at Michaels. Will just have to trace the pattern on is and I'll be set. Thanks everyone for all the help.

The sails are simply spectacular!
 

Clever trick the way you offset the davit stock to cut the taper!
 

Midwest Products produces a wide selection of milled basswood for modeling, running from small dimension strips and thin sheets, through large blocks the size of a brick and larger.  https://midwestproducts.com/collections/basswood These can usually be found in the lumber section of any Ace Hardware store and many other chain hardware stores, as well as most any craft store, such as Michaels. Midwest often has a good size display rack in such places stocked with a wide selection. Sourcing basswood is no problem at all. You should be able to find something very close to what you require easily at a local store. Importantly, buying "hands on" will allow you to select a premium piece with the grain just the way you want it, rather than taking your chances ordering mail order.
 
Even Walmart has it:  https://www.walmart.com/ip/MIDWEST-PRODUCTS-4422-BASSWOOD-BLOCK-2X4X12/36775784
 

Midwest Products produces a wide selection of milled basswood for modeling, running from small dimension strips and thin sheets, through large blocks the size of a brick and larger.  https://midwestproducts.com/collections/basswood These can usually be found in the lumber section of any Ace Hardware store and many other chain hardware stores, as well as most any craft store, such as Michaels. Midwest often has a good size display rack in such places stocked with a wide selection. Sourcing basswood is no problem at all. You should be able to find something very close to what you require easily at a local store. Importantly, buying "hands on" will allow you to select a premium piece with the grain just the way you want it, rather than taking your chances ordering mail order.
 
Even Walmart has it:  https://www.walmart.com/ip/MIDWEST-PRODUCTS-4422-BASSWOOD-BLOCK-2X4X12/36775784
 

Why not? If you're faithful to the prototype, your conscience is clear. I doubt it will cost you any points in a competition, that's for sure! The judges will be so overwhelmed by the gestalt of it all, they'll never notice that the prototype accommodation was built by a kitchen cabinetmaker and not a marine joiner.