Hr. Ms. O 19 1938 by Piet - FINISHED - scale 1:50 - submarine of the Royal Navy Netherlands in service 1939 - 1945

[Piet]

Hello everyone, and thank you all for the likes, so may of yuns, wow.

 

@ Jay, thank you Jay, yeah, she's coming along okay.

 

@ Hi Mark, yes, I was very surprised but pleased that this file folder paper shaped itself to compound curves. As long as it's not too much.  With the Liquitex medium it wets the paper enough to make it comply.  It stretches a little and also shrinks a little with some careful coaching with the back of my finger nails.

 

@ Kevin, thanks for stopping by.  Hmmm, yes, I started to do that but then got so busy that I forgot to do the rest.  But, it's not too difficult to duplicate it.  I just cut a piece close to it and lay it on top of the already glued on one and come to a close fit.   I'll go to the port side now and catch-up first before continuing with the starboard side.  Then make duplicates.  "Stupid is as stupid does."   

 

@ WackoWolf, thanks for stopping buy and yes, I'll try to make more pics as I go along.

 

@ Ian, thank you for your comment, it's good to hear from all yuns that it looks a little like steel plating.  Well, looks like us in the colonies have the same expression. My grandson called me the "lean, mean fighting machine"  I used to spar with him doing karate and taught him a few tricks the Jap guard taught me when I was in POW camp   .

 

Actually, of the many trade certificates I have are - - - boiler maker and steel plate worker.  But never had to earn my living with it.  Instead I became a master aircraft mechanic and engineer, all in aluminum though.  This is a fun project. 

 

Cheers 

[popeye the sailor]

looks great Piet........very nice progress!

[Piet]

Hey Popeye, thanks for dropping in, and for your kind words.  

 

I thought making and glueing on the simulated steel plates would be a piece of cake but it's more involved then anticipated.  Have to spend a lot of time looking at old photographs that don't show much details and then guess as to how large these plates are and where fastened to the frames.  From what I see most are lap joints with some but joints.  It'll have to be an educated guess for some of it.  I doubt that anyone will chide me for not being accurate to the n'th  degree.  Who is still around that can still remember it?

 

I have also been thinking about what to seal the paper with.  Here I go, doing something very dangerous, thinking, it usually gets me into trouble 

My original idea was to cover everything with the Liquitex polymer glazing medium I used when painting wit acrylic paints.  When I thin it a little it'll only penetrate one layer of the paper and it doesn't make the paper hard.  It also remains somewhat sticky and pliable, which is not bad but may become a problem in handling the model.  It doesn't sand easy, which I need to do in some areas.

 

So, I thought about epoxy resin.  It also penetrates the paper and it dries rock hard, which is what I'm really after. It sands easily and when cutting the paper with an exacto knife it cuts clean whereas with the polymer it tends to leave some fuzz from the center of the paper.  Hmmm, am I leaning toward the epoxy resin?

 

I'll do some experimenting first before I'm ready to seal the entire boat.  

 

All y'all can chime in with past experience you may have had or other ideas.  So far, all the paper is laying down real nice and smooth, even the lap joints.  But - - - - there is always that gnawing but.

 

Cheers,   

 

 

[Remcohe]

What about Minwax Wipe-on poly, it's water thin,  it will penetrate the paper and any surplus can be wiped off keeping the crisp lines of the butt joints in tact.

 

Remco

[amateur]

There is a guy doning a large scale paper model of the Scharnhorst. (Paul Salome)

I think he just ued a sprayed primer to seal the whole thing off. Perhaps you could ask him...

 

Jan

[FreekS]

Piet,

 

It looks very nice!

 

On my KXVIII I did the reverse from you, I did not create plating, but did "suggest" where the plates are through the application of over 5000 rivets.

Like you, many pictures show the plating, but it's still guesswork especially as these ships were partly welded, and the riveted joints covered in paint ( through constant "tjetten"). The rivets were offered by a forum member and were bought on a sheet, easy to cut and apply, and the subsequent paint fixes them in place.

 

Still working on my torpedoes, I'll get a video as soon as they work every time.

 

Love your build!

 

Freek

[Piet]

Thanks to everyone for your likes!

 

@ Remco, Minwax wipe on poly? Yes, I have heard about this stuff but never used it.  Sounds like a doable thing. I don't even know where to buy it locally.  But there is always Internet 

May have to buy a small can and give it a try.  I have some time yet.

 

@ Jan, hello and good to hear from you. Good idea to contact Paul and see what he uses.  Tanks for the hint 

 

@ Freek, also good to hear from you and the info on all them rivets.  Hey, I know all about "tjetten", old Dutch spelling though, in Bahasa Indonesia it is now "cat."  In my aircraft repair business I was "orang tjet."  Which is actually "pelukis."  Nah, I'm not going into that kind of detail to put a gezillion rivets on this thing.  I'm looking forward to the video on the torpedo launch   

 

Just watched the World Cup qualifying match between USA and Mexico.  USA won 2 to 0   

 

I'm plugging along with the plating between outside chores, the Admiral is getting antsy to get the mildew of the house, walkways and the fence.  Then there are the weeds, weeds and more weeds     But I still manage to place a few plates on the boat.

 

Cheers,

[Paul Salomone]

Hello Piet,

 

Great job. What materials are you using for the plating?

 

At that scale, it might be worth considering putting on the rivets as well. Tichy Train group produces some very good rivet heads and in all scales as well.

 

Yes I know - It is a very hard job to put in all those rivets. But my friend, believe me, they will add the final touch to such a beautiful and well built model. The Scharnhorst had an all welded steel hull, but the steel angle and cross beam member which joined the main deck to the hull were locked in place by rivets. if you see any close up pictures of the Scharnhorst, you will surely notice, what looks like a belt made up of rivet heads. I calculated that I would be requiring some 90,000 rivets per side to close off the job. I am surely not thinking on doing the job now, but at the end - YES - I am sincerely thinking and planning as how to find a quick way to fix the rivet heads.

[Piet]

Hello Paul, thanks for dropping in!  I have been thinking about you, did you receive a telepathic message to stop by?    Yes, I have heard about some company making rivets, I think it was Kreek, a Dutch guy who build a RC model of the K 18.  At this stage of the game I was not really contemplating of adding rivets.  It's tempting though but - - -

Even if the heads are 30 mm it would only be 0.6 mm in my scale and then cementing a gezillion of them, hmmm, I'll need another life    Well, with all the things I still want to do I definitely do need another life 

For the plating I am using tan colored file folders.  It works okay but it makes the lap joints a little bulky.  I'll send you a PM with a few questions.

 

Cheers,

[Adrieke]

i have seen abuild on here of the constitution where the builder had added the rivets and it look s amazing

[Remcohe]

For those looking for an alternative. You can get rivets as decals. http://www.archertransfers.com/SurfaceDetailsMain.html I used to use this and there pretty cool. Saves  a ton of work and the results are very realistic.

 

Remco

[Paul Salomone]

Hello Piet

Thanks for the info. Applying rivets, is not that difficult. You can apply them on wet paint or glue them in place. I use 0.3mm, 0.4mm, 0.6mm, 0.8mm and 1mm rivet heads on my build, and believe me - THEY DO ADD THAT FINISHING TOUCH.

I have also considered archer decals rivet sets, as Remco suggested. Archer, have hem in single layers, double layers and overlapping layers, as I need them for the hull upper lining.

[Piet]

Thank you guys for the rivet info.  Certainly something to be considered.  Fortunately I don't have to make a decision on it till later it seems.  Also, it appears that the deck plates may be welded with a few rivets here and there and they are but joints.

 

Cheers,

 

[Piet]

I had to take a few days away from the ship yard but had already a few pics made of the progress on the port side.  I'm ready to plate the side of the deck structure and hopefully can complete the port side in the next few days.

Looking at the attached photos from the original shipyard pics, the rivets do look pretty good.  Perhaps the smaller size may look okay on the boat.  I may just have to order a gezillion of them 

 

3/4 side view port side.

 

Close-up view of the port bow.  Comparing this with some of the original factory shots I think I'm close with the pattern of the plates.  There is still some detail work to be added.  

 

3/4 stern view looking forward

 

Bow view port side.  I had to make the water drainage slit in the forward bow, just above and forward of the torpedo doors, came out quite nice.

 

A profile pic, ready for Ken's profile section.

 

Bow shot just before her launch in 1938.  A great help for detail work.

 

A photo of the crew in front of the bow at the dockyard.  My father is on it.

 

Ready for the launch, 1938.  Good pic to help me in the hull plate pattern and rivets. 

 

Great shot from the stern, ready for the launch, 1938.  A shame it's so small and the protective steel girders around the dive planes and rudder. Well, they needed to protect all that during the launch but it's not much help to me in looking for the details.

 

This is the O 20 just before her launch.  The O 20 is the sister of the O 19.  I like this shot for the excellent detail of the hull plating and rivets.  At least it's large enough to really see the details.

 

Cheers,

 

 

[Jim Lad]

Nice to see her with a side plated, Piet!

 

Johnb

[ianmajor]

Piet,

 

Nice progress on the model.

 

The full size photos are interesting. The rivet detail only seems to be prominent around the edge of the bow.

[amateur]

Question: in the years this sub was build, there was a change from rivettin gto welding. Parts of the keel structure of the ship was welded.

I can imagine that the pressurehull was (at least partly) riveted (just to be sure), but how much of the hull and upperstructure was riveted?

I ask the question, as in your last pic, there seems to be only flush seams in the upperstructure, and that does not match the usual rivetting pattern.

 

Jan

[mtaylor]

Piet,

Over the years, I've seen rivets made not just from brass (commercial or home-made) but from drops of paint using a toothpick to black nylon bristles from a broom.  You'll have to do some testing if you decide to go the "home made" route to see what looks best at your scale. 

[Piet]

Thank you fellows for dropping in and your comments and inquiries.  

 

@ Johnb, yes indeed it's great progress even having to redo a few.

 

@ Ian, the photography makes it a little difficult to see all the rivets and the way certain joints are made.  Most are lap joints but the deck structure seems to be mainly but joints.  

 

@ Jan, great question and it would seem advantageous to weld.  But even at that time the science of welding and welding technique was not as advanced as we may think.  No matter whether it was arc welding or with oxy-aceteleen.  The problem was in weld-seem embrittlement. Then how would they have welded the hull plates to the frames.  With structures such as subs welding 22 mm steel plates to heavy steel frames was still a very difficult if not impossible process and would be very slow.  All the photos made by Wilton Feyenoord I have show exclusive riveting.  Many sections of the pressure hull were made inside the assembly hall as subassemblies and all show riveting.  Even the USS Cod, a Gato Class sub of the US Navy made during the early part of WW II, has an all riveted pressure hull.

There is really nothing wrong with using rivets for these boats because they spend most of their time on the surface.  Their max diving depth is listed at 100 meters or 328 feet.  They did obviously go deeper when pressed but what we should remember is that rivets are strongest in sheer, not tension.  With subs the pressure is inwards thus actually aiding in keeping the hull skin tight to the frames with zero tension on the rivet heads.  In aircraft it's just reversed due the pressurized hull and with a normal cabin pressure differential of 1 : 8 there is tons of pressure per square inch.  It's actually the size and type of rivet used is crucial.

It's the size and spacing of the frames and the thickness of the skin that's important.  Also, what we see on the pictures and my model is actually the non pressurized part of the hull, i.e. the ballast tanks and are constructed quite light. The lap joints show a double row of rivets with a single row in the between frames.  The deck structure is also very light, all it needs to do is carry the weight of crew and occasionally a torpedo or two and perhaps cases of ammo when loading them onboard.  The pressure hull is another story   In my following post I'll add a few pics of the O 19 being build that'll show the riveting.

Now, I am an Aircraft engineer and repairer, besides many other trades, with welding among them, but the construction and assembling methods and techniques are very similar to submarines.  After studying all the photos and books on the subject this is what I am basing it on.  Welding of submarines did not get really going till they started to build the nuclear subs.  At one time in my career I got involved with General Dynamics, the same company that builds nuclear subs, in their non destructive testing technique on subs that they wanted to use and have approved on aircraft wings.  My involvement was in the approval process as the representative of the FAA (Federal Aviation Administration).  Long but interesting story I won't go into here.

 

@ Mark, yes, I have read about people using tiny dabs of glue and I was thinking about it but have you taken a look at the drawings of this boat?  There must be millions of them.  I definitely need another life time doing that     Even gluing decals or strips of actual river heads on all the frames and seems is a time consuming job.  But - - - - - I'm moving into the positive direction though and with what system is still up in the air.

 

Cheers, 

[augie]

Really making wonderful progress there.  And thanks for posting those photos.

[Piet]

After spending some time on my previous post I'm running late for my beauty sleep 

In any case, I like to report that I managed to plate the port side deck structure.  Took me about four hours though.

Here are the pics with a few from the original build of the real boat.

 

Forward part. I even added a strip between the dive planes and the deck torpedo door opening as shown in one of the pics in a previous post.  I had to remove a piece of the plating on the bow.  I forgot that I still needed to replace some decking plywood that I had to remove in order to install the dive planes.  Well, that's done and the glue is curing.

 

A close up of the torpedo door opening with the deck top reenforcement. I followed a photo from the boatbuilder.

 

This is the boat builder's photo I used to mimic the top of the torp opening.

 

A stern view of the plated deck structure.

 

This construction picture shows how the ballast tank and mine compartment frames look like.  They are bolted to steel clips that are fastened to the pressure hull skin plates.  I don't know if they are welded on or riveted when the skin was riveted on.  The deck structure frames are also fastened in like fashion to these clips,

 

This is a pic of a pressure hull skin assembly.  Here you can see the rivet patterns to parts of the hull frames and the clips for the ballast tank frames.

 

A top view of the center of the pressure hull.  Rivet patterns are clearly visible here.  You can also see that the ballast tank frames are rather skinny.

 

This is a photo of the stern area showing the stern torpedo tubes.  But note the pressure hull skin plates being fastened with temporary holders ready to be riveted to the frames.

 

Cheers,

[mtaylor]

Nice work and great pictures of the real thing.   As for the rivet issue.. maybe a variation of a pouce wheel, but instead of making depressions or holes, use it to put down painted "dots" to simulate rivets.   The question would be:  "will anyone notice if they're NOT there?".  I think it's similar to the issue with treenailing a wooden ship.  If not visible at normal viewing distance, why do them, other than to know they are there?

[Jim Lad]

A great set of builders photos there, Piet.

 

John

[ianmajor]

Piet,

 

Your model is looking superb. Nice progress.  

 

The photos of the prototype are again fascinating. The frames for the ballast look so fragile.

[Piet]

Thanks to everyone for your like votes, much appreciated.

 

Well, I'm busy "plating" the starboard side now and making good progress.  I'll wait with posting pics when it's done, it's exactly the same process as the port side    

 

@ Mark, I guess there are several methods for simulating rivets or tapping in sewing pins.  Anthony suggested that and it would work great if I had made the model with all the frames.  however, I used the "plank on bulkhead" method thus doing the pin method doesn't really work that great.  Besides, as you can see on the builder pics, the frames for the ballast tank area are rather close together.  I think it may look very crowded with a gezillion pin heads    Remember that is what we see on the original boat and the model, we don't see the pressure hull.

 

The same result would be with stick-ons and the pounce wheel method or any other method.  All the frames need to be marked and "pounced" from the reverse side to create the rivet head bumps.  Now about the stick-on rivets, I think it will also make it look very crowded but may still be the only viable method.  The drawings I have do tell me where the ballast tank frames are and can then be located on the model.  next question is, what size rivets did they use?  1/4 inch (6.4 mm)? 3/8 inch (9.5 mm)? or 1/2 inch (12.7 mm) ?  That ranges from 0.12 mm to 0.25 mm in my scale.  I guess that using a .2 mm stick-on would work best.  

But - - -  this issue really needs a lot of thinking and pondering and your comment about visibility is well put.  The model is for me not for a museum, at least not at this moment.  When it's my time to go to "Davy Jones' locker" and my grandson doesn't want it the model can always go to one of the interested places in the Netherlands.

So, for now I'll leave it undecided.  I may purchase one strip of .2 mm rivets to try it out for looks.  Your comment on treenails is also right on the mark.  That's why I did not treenail my VOC ship, it would have been a daunting task and it would most likely look like having the measles    

 

@ John and Ian, thanks for your encouraging words.  Yes, I'm very fortunate in having these photos.  Remco was the first one directing me to a Dutch website where I found a few.  Then Gino den Ridder send me a whole bunch great pics, even a few with my father on it.  I also downloaded a short movie taken on board Hr. Ms. Java where I saw my father.  I'm thrilled to pieces.  Ian, indeed the outside framing for the ballast tanks do look rather flimsy but when the steel plates are riveted on it it becomes pretty stiff.  Remember that there is no pressure differential, it's just to gave the boat a hydrodynamic shape for submerged cruising.  If you think these frames look skinny for an ocean going vessel then you should look at commercial aircraft frames, or perhaps not - - - - -      you may not want to fly anymore.

 

Well, that's all for now and

 

Cheers 

[Adrieke]

if the stick on rivets dont work maybe creating a brass or other metal template with drilled holes where the rivets go so you can easily put the paint drops on ??

[Piet]

Hey Adriaan, good to hear from you and welcome in the dockyard.  Yes, it's a viable thought and is up front for consideration, thanks for reminding me.

Love your model, been visiting - - - quietly.

 

Cheers,

[Adrieke]

i have been quietly following yours too

[Paul Salomone]

Hello Piet,

 

The plating seems to be well under way and nearing completion. Well done a very neat job.

I was studying the photos of the hull you posted on page 22 of your log, especially the thickness of the overlapping. You need not worry about the thickness of the over lapping. If the covering plates of the hull were 20mm thick - at a scale of 1:50, the thickness of the card should be 0.4mm. If the thickness of the plate was 25mm, the overlap would be 0.5mm thick. The photos show some overlapping of the plates and the thickness is evident. As for the rivets issue. Piet - You are doing a wonderful job. I cannot comment on timber period ships as I feel stupid to do so - it's just not my line of hobby. But steel ships are. Believe me, with some patience, you will end up with a real jewel.

I assume that you shall be displaying it on a wooden base, and fully agree with you. Remember, whilst in docks or slipways, the subs used to be seated on timber slider blocks. See below picture.

 

A 1939 German Type IIA submarine. I shall be finishing it whitish grey, as was the standard colour at that time, with a fully rigged mast.

 

Just imagine your sub on a similar base, and to high light the detail, some slight washes, especially around the rivets, high lights and dry brushing. Wow I dare not continue. My fanatical friends at the club, will surely give you some lectures as how to finish the hull. They are real experts at the thing. I compare myself as a beginner, when comparing my work with theirs.

 

 

[Piet]

Hello Paul,

 

Thank you very much for your encouraging comments, really appreciated.  No, I'm beyond the concern state of the hull plating thickness, it'll have to be as you see it and I am quite happy with it.  Steel ships are not foreign to me either because I started out studying for ship's engineer in the early fifties.  So, I have a slight understanding of steel ships and what makes them go     But fortunately I switched to aircraft design and maintenance.  Been involved eith them from 1954 on till I retired from Government service a 4 years ago.  Needles to say I am more comfortable with airplanes and aluminum but have also extensive background in metallurgy thus steel and iron are not totally foreign to me.  There is obviously much more not being said about all my education op to where I am now 

Display, actually I had a real crazy idea about the display but that'll add quite a bit of time. I like to have it as have to as my father knew her.  I also like the idea of having her displayed on the slipway on the day she was launched.  This would really not be accurate because there were things not yet completed on the boat when she slid down into the river.    And yes, I am quite familiar with slipways and launching ships.

I don't know yet, I need some time to think about it.

 

According to Gino den Ridder the colors of the boat at that time were dark green and a dark red.  So, that'll most likely be the color scheme, strange as it sounds.  We would expect a grey but apparently the Koninklijke Marine (Royal Navy) had other ideas about colors.

 

Well, the starboard side is half way completed with the plating.  Making good progress, even in between house chores.  Please stay tuned.

 

Cheers,