Cannon Armed Clipper Thermopylae

[PeteB]

Hi Guys

 

After weeks of what became an almost daily fix reading first Ed Tosti's fabulous build logs of Naiad and now both Young American builds my interest in clippers has significantly increased and I came across a model of the clipper Thermopylae on the Australian Power House Museum site (officially the Museum Applied Arts & Science I think) built by a gentlemen Cyril L Hume.

 

What caught my eye was the two cannon lashed to the deck which I have never before seen on models of this type. The accompanying information on the model states he built the model entirely from information gathered from ex crew during the 1930's Depression in Sydney. The information on the site quotes Cyril in part -

“The coastline south of Hong Kong was often the location of pirate attacks from junks. Cyril said that "Thermopylae" was well prepared with two small guns lashed to the main deck and various other weapons including 20 Tower Hill muskets, 20 cutlasses, 20 boarding pikes, 20 round shot and 20 grape shot located around the mizzenmast below deck.”

For me this is the first I have heard of any of the clippers carrying anything bigger than small arms? There is some very interesting detail information on the Vessel and crew are well as some very nice photos of a beautiful model if you have a spare moment.

http://www.powerhousemuseum.com/collection/database/?irn=211834

 

Cheers Pete

[mtaylor]

As I recall from other discussions, many clippers did carry a small gun or two that were usually used for signalling.  It wouldn't be a stretch of the imagination that they could also double for defensive purposes.

[Thunder]

The period of the Clipper ships saw a rise in the chinese pirates that would prey on any unprepared western merchant vessel. They used Junks that were heavily armed with large crews. 

[wefalck]

I believe all ships sailing in Chinese waters up to the end of the 19th centurey had to be armed at least for insurance purposes. However, it seems that many captains/crews preferred not to put up a fight with the pirates, if they could not out-sail them, because then, in case of capture, the Chinese pirates would then just kill them. If they didn't put up resistance, there was at least some chance that the pirates would let them go. I recently read an account of a German vessel of around 1860 that got captured: the crew was put into one of the ship's boats and set adrift; when they landed on an island in the Chinese sea, the friendly natives stripped them of their clothing, this being the only thing they still had; eventually they were rescued. This lead to a German navy presence in the Chinese waters.

 

The pirate problem has never been resolved completely in these waters and as we all know, it is now a serious threat to shipping in some parts of the Indian ocean, resulting in commercial ships being armed again.

[Sailor1234567890]

Cutty Sark has her gun displayed on top of the monkey deck just forward of the helm. Pretty small, mostly for signaling but not a stretch to imagine it shotted.

[jud]

A signal gun intended to make noise is much different than a crew served defensive gun. Aboard the Helena CA 75 we had two saluting guns mounted in 1961 on the 01 level forward, cheaper to shoot than shooting a Bale of Hay from a 5", bale of hay is what firing a propelling charge only was called. The signal guns installed in 61 were the breach with breach block and a short section of a 40 MM barrel solidly mounted to a triangular stand with no recoil provisions other than mass. Think the signal guns used today on the Constitution use the same breach and barrel setup all placed in the breach end of a couple of cannon. The 40 MM cartridges fired on the Helena used Black Powder. They produced the boom, flash and smoke of the old guns.

jud.

[Blunty]

I believe that most clippers in the 1800s had to 14 guns (probably for protection, although some cutters were used in the royal navy) 

[wefalck]

?

[uss frolick]

Whisky Tango Foxtrot?

[bruce d]

19 hours ago, Blunty said:

I believe that most clippers in the 1800s had to 14 guns (probably for protection, although some cutters were used in the royal navy

 

Hello Blunty, as you can see your statement has caused some confusion among the members. Perhaps it is down to more than one vessel with the same name, and perhaps shifting rules and norms at different times in the same century.

Can you add a bit of detail for context?

 

Regards,

Bruce

[uss frolick]

Perhaps our new friend is confusing “clipper ship” with “Baltimore clipper”?

[Seeking Staghound]

This is an interesting question as to whether Clipper ships were armed. The Thermopylae model and wefalck's comment about insurance requirements seems to confirm.  

 

I am a technical diver and amateur marine archeologist working with underwater photogrammetry. 

 

The Staghound was lost to fire off the coast of Brazil near Recife in 1861. There is a wreck site at 30 meters depth between Ipojuca and Serambi which is likely to be the Staghound. I am fairly convinced that it is, the geometry, cargo, and newspaper reports from the time are confirming.

 

But some folks think that the presence of two cannons rules it out, apparently not.

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

On 12/15/2022 at 9:40 AM, Seeking Staghound said:

This is an interesting question as to whether Clipper ships were armed. The Thermopylae model and wefalck's comment about insurance requirements seems to confirm.  

 

I am a technical diver and amateur marine archeologist working with underwater photogrammetry. 

 

The Staghound was lost to fire off the coast of Brazil near Recife in 1861. There is a wreck site at 30 meters depth between Ipojuca and Serambi which is likely to be the Staghound. I am fairly convinced that it is, the geometry, cargo, and newspaper reports from the time are confirming.

 

But some folks think that the presence of two cannons rules it out, apparently not.

   You're right about clippers having armament for insurance purposes ... but that requirement was dropped at some point due to the speed of clippers and increasing safety in the vicinity of Hong Kong.  'Don't know when that was BUT, the Thermopylae built in 1868 had 2 cannon (and other weapons) - a the definitive model built by Cyril Homes (1900 - 1984).  This second model he built of the Thermie was started in 1935 and finished in 1979, and bought by the Museum of Applied Arts & Sciences (MAAS), Sydney, Australia in 1980 and is on display and images are available on the internet.

 

  Humes was able to interview crewmen who had served aboard Thermopylae to gain the best information on her configuration.

The coastline south of Hong Kong was often the location of pirate attacks from junks. Cyril said that "Thermopylae" was well prepared with two small guns lashed to the main deck and various other weapons including 20 Tower Hill muskets, 20 cutlasses, 20 boarding pikes, 20 round shot and 20 grape shot located around the mizzenmast below deck. 

 

  Since the Staghound was lost PRIOR to the launching of Thermopylae, the requirement for cannon would have applied.

 

  EDIT:  The other model is in the Melbourne Museum - images also available - and BOTH models are done very well.  Some of the images available on line in 'out of the case' and some are inside a display case.  Another model is in the Greenwich Museum ('guess in England).  

 

  The wreck you mentioned might just be the Staghound ... and there might be means of determining the identity - short of finding the figurehead.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Snug Harbor Johnny

[Cirdan]

Hume's Melbourne Model:  https://collections.museumsvictoria.com.au/ite

 

 

 

There's a nice model of the clipper Ariel showing a very small (signalling ?)-gun (just behind the mizzen): 

 

charlesmillerltd.com/auction/lot/315-AN-EXCEPTIONALLY-FINE-196-SCALE-STATIC-DISPLAY-MODEL-OF-THE-FAMOUS-COMPOSITE-TEA-CLIPPER-ARIEL 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2022 by Cirdan

[pollex]

When I was training with the Royal Canadian Sea cadets in Esquimalt, (Victoria, BC), I visited the Maritime Museum, and there was an interesting display for "Thermopylae", as it had sailed to BC also. This was

nearly 60 years ago, so I can't remember if there was a large model with

the clipper ship display.  pollex (Calgary)