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Treenail Size Question


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About 1/4 of the real size. :rolleyes::D Sorry I couldn't resist.

 

No really. I don't know what era or type of ship you are building but at least one research paper states that based on excavations at Pacific Wharf in Rotherhithe England that in the 16th and 17th century they were made in three sizes and seemed to be about 1" for every hundred feet.

 

Others here may have more precise information. Hope that helps.

 

Lou 

Lou

 

Build logs: Colonial sloop Providence 1/48th scale kit bashed from AL Independence

Currant builds:

Constructo Brigantine Sentinel (Union) (On hold)

Minicraft 1/350 Titanic (For the Admiral)

1/350 Heavy Cruiser USS Houston (Resin)

Currant research/scratchbuild:

Schooner USS Lanikai/Hermes

Non ship build log:

1/35th UH-1H Huey

 

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Lou, I think has it about right.  But there's also the variables of where the treenails are being used... deck?  upper hull?   Underwater hull?   Beams? etc...   And then there's which nation?   The French used a combination of wood and iron nails.  

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

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From the ASA 1885

 

Tree nails

outside planking

 

plank thickness     treenail inches 

1                          7/8

2.5                        1

3-3.5                     1.125

4-4.5                     1.25

5-5.5                     1.375

6- <                       1.5

 

I 'll leave it to you to divide by 48 to get model scale

 

Since the physics did not change and at scale - any difference in scantlings over the 200 years hard to notice 

this should be ballpark enough.   The largest is #68 gauge at scale - not easy to draw and easy to break.

NRG member 50 years

 

Current:  

NMS

HMS Ajax 1767 - 74-gun 3rd rate - 1:192 POF exploration - works but too intense -no margin for error

HMS Centurion 1732 - 60-gun 4th rate - POF Navall Timber framing

HMS Beagle 1831 refiit  10-gun brig with a small mizzen - POF Navall (ish) Timber framing

The U.S. Ex. Ex. 1838-1842
Flying Fish 1838  pilot schooner - POF framed - ready for stern timbers
Porpose II  1836  brigantine/brig - POF framed - ready for hawse and stern timbers
Vincennes  1825  Sloop-of-War  - POF timbers assembled, need shaping
Peacock  1828  Sloop-of -War  - POF timbers ready for assembly
Sea Gull  1838  pilot schooner - POF timbers ready for assembly
Relief  1835 packet hull USN ship - POF timbers ready for assembly

Other

Portsmouth  1843  Sloop-of-War  - POF timbers ready for assembly
Le Commerce de Marseilles  1788   118 cannons - POF framed

La Renommee 1744 Frigate - POF framed - ready for hawse and stern timbers

 

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The treenail colour also matters a lot. Real treenails are basically invisible, you need go come very close to see them (except iron bolts). Model ones are mostly an aesthetics choice, where colour contrast affects visual size much more than the diameter. 

It would be wise to make a large enough test piece, using the same wood and plank size as on a real model, and then experiment with various woods and sizes. Always put the finish on, since it changes the treenail colour a lot (absorbing into endgrain differently than into the plank).

if you add various finishes in the mix - the number of test boards might increase :) 

Edited by Mike Y
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Submarine Blue.

 

What is our name?

To make trennals down to 0.875 real world, which is 0.018 diameter, bamboo is about the only wood that can be used consistently.   Use a good quality draw plate such as from Jim Byrnes and you can make a couple hundred per hour.   Undyed garden bamboo stakes can be split with a knife into thin strips down to the largest hole in the draw plate then run through consecutively smaller holes until you reach the diameter you want.  Most hull planks are about 3 to 4 inches thick except for the wales and upper strakes, so 0.023 is an average trennal diameter at 1/4 scale.   You will need upwards of 10,000 for a good sized frigate, so it will take a while but definitely can be done.   

 

Allan

PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series.   Click on http://trafalgar.tv   There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time.  THANK YOU

 

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Just as another data point....the 1/48th scale yacht America from Bluejacket supplies 3/64th inch basswood dowels to use as treenails  for the hull planking.  3/64th = 0.047, which would be 2 1/4th inches scaled up.  I did not do any research to verify, though I assumed that is larger than scale, but probably the smallest diameter basswood dowel that is practical to make and use.

 

- Gary

 

Current Build: Artesania Latina Sopwith Camel

Completed Builds: Blue Jacket America 1/48th  Annapolis Wherry

 

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I forgot to say that the 1" per 100' quote I used above was for hull tree nails not deck, based on archaeological excavations on the Thames. The paper does not state anything about deck tree nails.

 

I personally like Jaager's numbers best. But at this scale it will make almost no difference I think as you are looking at less than 1/32" or .79mm if you are using MM, between large and small.

 

Still an interesting question. I learned a couple of things from the answers as well.

 

Lou

Lou

 

Build logs: Colonial sloop Providence 1/48th scale kit bashed from AL Independence

Currant builds:

Constructo Brigantine Sentinel (Union) (On hold)

Minicraft 1/350 Titanic (For the Admiral)

1/350 Heavy Cruiser USS Houston (Resin)

Currant research/scratchbuild:

Schooner USS Lanikai/Hermes

Non ship build log:

1/35th UH-1H Huey

 

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The .75 range of size i used above as an example was just a figure off of the top of my head made rather late in the evening and I suppose i should not have done that. I apologize for my laziness. The real range at 1/48th scale between the largest and smallest tree nails in Jaagers formula is .3333 mm. Hardly a  significant amount when viewed with the normal human eye. The difference becomes even less when in all probability you are dealing with tree nails that are somewhere in the mid range anyway.  

 

If 1.25 mm is what works for you then Jaager worked it out with his formula. Might give him a thanks.

 

Still don't know what ship/period you are building or are contemplating to build so really sorry i can't comment on your decision further than that.

 

Lou

Lou

 

Build logs: Colonial sloop Providence 1/48th scale kit bashed from AL Independence

Currant builds:

Constructo Brigantine Sentinel (Union) (On hold)

Minicraft 1/350 Titanic (For the Admiral)

1/350 Heavy Cruiser USS Houston (Resin)

Currant research/scratchbuild:

Schooner USS Lanikai/Hermes

Non ship build log:

1/35th UH-1H Huey

 

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I ve used many thousands of treenails in my current boat, mainly to hold the planking in place (no glue used). I also use 1 mm screws to temporarily hold things together and then remove them and fill the holes with tree nails. For a quick way of making them in bulk, at any size have a look at this

 

https://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/13063-tree-nails-in-bulk/&tab=comments#comment-398038

 

 

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