18TH Century Dry docks for 1st rates

[Kevin]

silly question time

 

how would a 1st rate be repaired below the waterline, was it always a case of demasting and leaning to one side, or was there actual docking facilities

 

reason for asking is i dont have a stand for my HMS Victory, i dont have recesses made for pedestals, and was thinking of a dry dock scenario, 

 

any suggestions, i dont want to have to remove the masts lol

 

Edited April 8, 2019 by Kevin

[amateur]

Chatham had docking facilities, but I don't know how they were used. And the story goes that Portsmouth had its first dock around 1500.

No idea whether that was a dock as we know it now, or just a place where they could geet to the underside of a ship.

 

Jan

[trippwj]

How old is the dock the Victory is berthed within?

 

For reference, Drydock 1 in the Charleston, MA (USA) dates to about 1815 and is more than large enough for the Constitution, so likely large enough for a first rate.  If the early US had one of that size, I am quite sure Britainia did.

 

 

 

[Kevin]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMNB_Portsmouth

 

i am thinking of going down the road of a dry dock cutaway with my Victory in it, possibly two long sides and one end, as i need to ensure i have enough support to keep the build stable, if one end was open it wold show some detail of the hull, has anyone seen this done as a display

Edited April 8, 2019 by Kevin

[druxey]

At one time Longridge's Victory in the Science Museum was displayed in a dry dock setting.

[Talos]

Portsmouth Dockyard had several drydocks in the 18th century, including a double-length one that could handle two ships. The current dock Victory is in was rebuilt around 1800 by Samuel Bentham. Here is a map from 1773 that shows several of the docks (the dockyard is at the top of the map).

 

[Mark P]

Good Evening Kevin;

 

In the eighteenth century dry dock facilities for 1st rates existed at most dockyards. As they did in the 17th century, in fact. 

 

Many first rates were built in dry docks, and floated out to launch them, rather than launching then stern-first from a slipway, as was normal for smaller vessels. Nelson's 'Victory', completed in 1765, was built in a dry dock at Chatham, and floated out (after a bit of panic when it was realised only a few hours previously that the dock gate was a little too narrow for her.

 

If you search the NMM website under ship models, there is a very nice model of her as built, but sitting on a slipway, so wrong in that respect, but it will give you some idea of what a dock looked like. The ship herself looks far more attractive than the 1805 version, also. Well worth a look.

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

[Kevin]

Thank you everyone for the comments, at present i will press ahead a try to complete the build before the end of this month, a i will be attempting to put her into a dry dock, i suppose the year does not matter, as i doubt that little would be shown to date it, unless i threw in led dock lighting , now there is a thought 

[bruce d]

20 hours ago, Kevin said:

.... will press ahead a try to complete the build before the end of this month, ....

Hello Kevin,

I saw this and thought it might cast some light on your subject:

It is 'Shipbuilding on the Thames at Redriff' in the NMM, object ID = BHC1868, dated 1792

The description is " A scene on south bank of the Thames at Rotherhithe, looking east to the tower of St Anne's church, Limehouse. Two ships are shown on the right, viewed from the starboard quarter and flying the red ensign. Both are, by type, merchant vessels but that on the left, on the stocks just prior to launching, appears to be a naval transport flying a naval pennant from her central flagstaff and a white St George's jack. The other is refitting in a dry-dock. Piles of timber are stacked on the wharf between these two with a Dutch flag prominent on a quayside hoist. A ship on the far right is shown on the water, apparently with her rig struck down to her lower masts. On the left of the vessel ready for launch stands another under construction on the same slipway and in-frame up to her top-timbers. In the right background, in starboard broadside view, is another merchant vessel with only her lower masts standing, probably at the inland end of a dock or basin, voiding to the Thames out of sight on the left. Houses lie beyond and on the left of the skeletal ship is a low building with a red roof and a pile of timber in front of it. Men can be seen on ladders working with the timber. Two merchant ships are moored off the point, in stern view, with the masts of a third visible beyond. Others lie in the river on the left, where a cutter is also tacking upstream in the distance. In the foreground on the right a couple sit in a Thames skiff being used as a water taxi. In the centre a Dutch trading dogger is coming upstream, her starboard leeboard visible, and the male passenger in the skiff gestures towards her while his oarsman turns his head to look out for her. Although similar craft often appear in Dutch paintings, its presence combined with the Dutch flag on the quay indicates that the artist had intentionally established a strong Dutch connection. It is possible that the picture, painted in 1792, marks a contemporary event of Dutch or Anglo/Dutch significance such as the 100th anniversary of the Anglo-Dutch defeat of the French at the Battle of La Hogue in 1692. The prominence of the man gesturing in the skiff may indicate that he has a commercial interest in the scene. The shipyard shown was previously thought to be Quallet's at Pitcher's Point. However, this had gone by 1792 and Richard Horwood's map of that year suggests that it is more likely to be Young's yard with the 'inland' vessel beyond also be in Young's other dock further round the point, though topography has been distorted to fit it in. The Dutch elements may be a compliment to Peter Everitt Mestaer, whose yard was to the right (west) of Young's, where the moored ship is alongside, and whose name suggests Dutch background. If this interpretation is right the buildings and stacked timber are likely to be those of Thompson's yard beyond Young's. In the early 18th century ribbon development along the Thames linked Deptford to Rotherhithe and London. Daniel Defoe commented in 1724 that 'the docks and building yards on the riverside between the town of Deptford and the street of Redriff or Rotherhithe are effectually joined and building daily increased'. Despite this evidence the painting is curiously emptied of bustle and human activity. Whitcombe was born in London in about 1752 and painted ship portraits, battle scenes, harbour views and ships in storms. Although his output was vast, little is known about him. He produced a large number of subjects from the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars, 1793-1815, and exhibited at the Royal Academy between 1783 and 1824. His depiction of ships implies specific knowledge of life at sea, although he probably spent most of his career in London. Many of his works were engraved and they included 50 plates to James Jenkins's account of 'The Naval Achievements of Great Britain', published in 1817. The painting is signed and dated in the lower left corner, 'Thos. Whitcombe 1792'. "

 

Every little bit helps.

Bruce

[Kevin]

ty Bruce,

 

i have been looking at all sorts of photos today, but seam to be over complcating the issue for myself, if i do a 4 sided dock i will loose all detail below thee waterline but will secure the build,

 

one side of the dock and a dock bottom appeals to me but the (how the hell do i keep her upright) keeps ringing in me ears, then do i copy her as she is now or at some time in the past

Edited April 10, 2019 by Kevin

[Old Collingwood]

Why dont you do a Long side  (at the rear of the ship)   and an end  (could be the gate),    you could secure her as I think they did  with beams secured from the dock walls (steps)  and attached to the hull  (possibly pins)   and  similar under her keel  onto the keel dock blocks.

 

It would be secure and look Fantastic.

 

OC.

[Old Collingwood]

A rough scetch  just to show a front on view showing the dock wall on the right  and beams and keel blocks (in brown)

 

OC.

[mtaylor]

Kevin,

I've seen some photos from the NMM where they have the ship much like what OC shows but instead of walls and all the timber, there's keel mounted on the beam and one line of side supports down both sides of the hull that intersect the ship about where the second one up touches the ship.   There's at least one I remember of the Victory displayed this way.

[bruce d]

[Kevin]

Thank you, i had an idea over night along those grounds, i eill first of all create a dock bottom with enough uprights to stabilise her. then slide it into a diorama dock, , i have to go work now so i will be back later tonight

[Kevin]

https://portsmouthdockyard.org.uk/timeline/details/1495-worlds-first-dry-dock

[paulsutcliffe]

Hi Kevin

The Bellona model in the nmm is shown on a sort of dry Dock, the picture on the front of the ship of the line by Brian lavery shows it quite well, if that helps or not I don't know

Regards

Paul

 

Edited April 11, 2019 by paulsutcliffe

[Kevin]

28 minutes ago, paulsutcliffe said:

Hi Kevin

The Bellona model in the nmm is shown on a sort of dry Dock, the picture on the front of the ship of the line by Brian lavery shows it quite well, if that helps or not I don't know

Regards

Paul

 

do you mean this one paul

[dvm27]

If I'm not mistaken the Bellona model depicts it in it's launching cradle. You've a lovely model Kevin and quite frankly I think it would be best displayed on pedestals or cradle within a simple case.

[paulsutcliffe]

1 hour ago, Kevin said:

do you mean this one paul

Yep that's the one, as Greg says a launching cradle, check out from the front though with the cables  etc holding it in

Edited April 11, 2019 by paulsutcliffe

[bruce d]

This was the arrangement for launch, not found anything yet for drydock.

Edited April 11, 2019 by bruce d