A question about varnish.

[danbloch]

I would appreciate your recommendations for what varnish to use. I've finished gluing the planks to my deck and now the instructions have me painting varnish to seal it.

They recommend "nitrocellulose pore-filling varnish with a satin finish." Is this my best bet and if so do you have product recommendations? Some say oil based, some water based...

 

Thank you for your help. 

 

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Edited May 17, 2020 by danbloch
Spelling

[stuglo]

just think if you have to glue something to it afterwards.

[Jaager]

6 hours ago, danbloch said:

They recommend "nitrocellulose pore-filling varnish with a satin finish."

The satin finish or matte is because of scale effect.  What is gloss in RL, is not when viewed 50-100 times farther away.

Pore filling implies that the wood supplied actually has pores.  The ideal species of wood used for a ship model should have pores that are too small to be noticed.

Varnish is a verb as well as a noun and a specific type of product.  As a verb it covers any sort of clear finish. 

If you did not have to deal with pesky pores, the traditional, most forgiving, most compatible with other coatings or paints, has the least problem with out of scale buildup, not at all toxic  -  is shellac.  It comes premixed or as flakes.  The flakes offer near water clear to garnet, depending on the type chosen.

Mask any areas where deck houses, bitts, hatch coaming  (the spell checker here - a database with nautical words, and suggestions would be helpful).

A sand n' sealer would fill the pores, but it is also way out of scale thick when dry.

Check for fine finishing on up scale furniture methods,  but maybe mixing plaster of paris with half strength shellac, scraping the surface when dry, and applying full size shellac over that.

 

A significant segment here subscribes to the better living thru chemistry and "modern" synthetics and plastic polymer products.  Some of us are dinosaurs, who prefer more traditional materials.

 

[Bob Cleek]

Shellac can also be used as a filler if one doesn't mind rubbing the built-up gloss down with rottenstone and pummice, fine metal wool, or a Scotchbrite pad. Note that "orange" shellac will darken as additional coats are applied. "Clear" or "bleached" shellac remains clear regardless of the number of coats.

 

I'd be hesitant to put plaster of Paris into shellac to produce a filler unless one were going to paint over it. The plaster is white. 

 

Like Jaager, I'm also very partial to shellac for all its versatile uses in modeling. 

[Jaager]

1 hour ago, Bob Cleek said:

I'd be hesitant to put plaster of Paris into shellac to produce a filler unless one were going to paint over it. The plaster is white. 

I have no direct experience with plaster of paris as a filler.  I remember it from a book on fine furniture finishing.  I thought it strange too.  The best I could speculate about it is that the particles are translucent when exposed to shellac.  Otherwise, Black Walnut would look like it had white measles.  .... I checked my library and I can't find it.  It may have been pumice.  Anyway, it was so startling that it stuck with me.  "Never mind."   It is better to never use a species of wood where a coat of half cut shellac is not an effective sealer. 

[danbloch]

13 hours ago, Jaager said:

The satin finish or matte is because of scale effect.  What is gloss in RL, is not when viewed 50-100 times farther away.

Pore filling implies that the wood supplied actually has pores.  The ideal species of wood used for a ship model should have pores that are too small to be noticed.

Varnish is a verb as well as a noun and a specific type of product.  As a verb it covers any sort of clear finish. 

If you did not have to deal with pesky pores, the traditional, most forgiving, most compatible with other coatings or paints, has the least problem with out of scale buildup, not at all toxic  -  is shellac.  It comes premixed or as flakes.  The flakes offer near water clear to garnet, depending on the type chosen.

Mask any areas where deck houses, bitts, hatch coaming  (the spell checker here - a database with nautical words, and suggestions would be helpful).

A sand n' sealer would fill the pores, but it is also way out of scale thick when dry.

Check for fine finishing on up scale furniture methods,  but maybe mixing plaster of paris with half strength shellac, scraping the surface when dry, and applying full size shellac over that.

 

A significant segment here subscribes to the better living thru chemistry and "modern" synthetics and plastic polymer products.  Some of us are dinosaurs, who prefer more traditional materials.

 

Thank you for taking the time to answer me. You gave me alot of information that is very foreign to me and I feel more uncertain then when I started.

I THINK you suggested that I use Shellac. So something like this from Amazon?

https://www.amazon.com/Rust-Oleum-316-Bulls-Shellac-2-Pint/dp/B000LNQBBI/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=shellac&qid=1589799474&refinements=p_85%3A2470955011&rnid=2470954011&rps=1&s=hi&sr=1-3

[Jaager]

That is exactly what I recommend that you use.  For the first coat, cut some it 50:50 with shellac thinner.  Long ago and far away, that used to be methanol - wood alcohol - but if your drink it, your liver metabolizes it to formaldehyde - and you die.  It all seems to be ethanol now - with a trace of something noxious and emetic - and is called denatured alcohol.

Drug store alcohol has too much water and water turns shellac white.  That is why shellac is not used on tabletops - not everyone uses a coaster.

My local hardware has this brand and pints or quarts of denatured alcohol.  I checked Home Depot and Slowes - they only list quarts of Zinsser.  I go the hardware store route.

An old tee shirt square is as good as anything else for application.  The first coat will just soak it and not leave all that much on the surface. The next full strength coat will cover the surface, but it is not thick enough material to need skilled brush application. a soft rag is enough.  Alcohol repairs mistakes and a Scotch-Brite  pad will smooth the surface, if needed. 

You can use a single edge razor blade to to smooth the surface, with an alcohol cleaning, before you apply any shellac.  But if you have open pores, the dust from using sand paper may fill them some.  Scrapping does not leave any residue behind.

[danbloch]

15 minutes ago, Jaager said:

That is exactly what I recommend that you use.  For the first coat, cut some it 50:50 with shellac thinner.  Long ago and far away, that used to be methanol - wood alcohol - but if your drink it, your liver metabolizes it to formaldehyde - and you die.  It all seems to be ethanol now - with a trace of something noxious and emetic - and is called denatured alcohol.

Drug store alcohol has too much water and water turns shellac white.  That is why shellac is not used on tabletops - not everyone uses a coaster.

My local hardware has this brand and pints or quarts of denatured alcohol.  I checked Home Depot and Slowes - they only list quarts of Zinsser.  I go the hardware store route.

An old tee shirt square is as good as anything else for application.  The first coat will just soak it and not leave all that much on the surface. The next full strength coat will cover the surface, but it is not thick enough material to need skilled brush application. a soft rag is enough.  Alcohol repairs mistakes and a Scotch-Brite  pad will smooth the surface, if needed. 

You can use a single edge razor blade to to smooth the surface, with an alcohol cleaning, before you apply any shellac.  But if you have open pores, the dust from using sand paper may fill them some.  Scrapping does not leave any residue behind.

So first coat is 50/50 clear matte shellac and denatured alcohol.

Second coat is just the shellac. 

 

I don't understand your last paragraph. You are saying to use alcohol, (the denatured alcohol?), to clean before the first 50/50 coat and apply it with a razor?

 

Sorry for all the questions. This is my first time working with wood. 

[danbloch]

13 minutes ago, SpyGlass said:

Dan - what kit are you building ?

 

I think Jaager is referring to the fact that in finishing a deck it is often best to prepare the deck by "scraping" using a blade rather than sanding - gives a nice even surface. Rather like this 

And the earlier comment about deck fittings holds true - for the best adhesion it is good not to glue to varnished surface - though in most cases you probbaly would get away with it

I am building the Polaris from OcCre: https://www.occre.com/polaris.html

 

Its my first model so I struggle alot. I started a post on what type of glue to use, (instructions call for wood, contact and quick drying), and the response I got from the community is to mostly use wood glue, so now I am questioning everything the instructions are telling me. This goes for the deck finishing as well. I love all the help I am getting here, but the responses are very different from what the instructions say. And now you are suggesting that I shouldn't use the shellac because I can't glue things to it?

Im really confused. 

[Jaager]

Dan,

If you look at SpyGlass' photo, you will see drifts of wood scrapings.  A vac will get most of it,  but a solvent rub will get what is left.

 

SpyGlass was not saying not to apply a clear finish, he was saying it is good to:

Mask - blue painters tape or green frog tape or the old crepe paper masking tape if you must.  Cover any areas that will have wood glued to it, but just those areas and maybe a hair less.  So that there is not a bare zone outside the glued on structure - neat looks and all that.  .  PVA bonds to porous surfaces - the polymers invade the substance of the wood.  A smooth glassy surface = no bond.  Now, you can prime and coat the whole deck with shellac, and then scrape the shellac off of the bonding sites, but it takes real talent and skill not to take off too much or scrape too deeply.  Prevention is easier.

 

Commercial varnish vs shellac  -  mostly a personal preference situation.  But most varnishes work better if the surface is primed first.  The common and traditional primer for other clear finishes or paint is half strength shellac.  You really have to work hard to find something that is not compatible with shellac.

Old style varnish is boiled ( cooked to polymerize it - so that it will dry in your lifetime) linseed oil in mineral spirits.

Modern stuff is plastic ( like polyurethane ) in either mineral spirits or lately water.  It tends to be both thicker than shellac and glossy.  If you apply 10 coats, shellac can be glossy too.  It is just not a look that you want for this type of surface.

 

Buffing the surface of a clear coated surface, before the next coat,  produces a smoother and better looking surface.   Tradition is to use 0000 steel wool.  BUT, steel wool leaves bits of itself behind.  If it is not totally removed, the steel residue can rust and stain a model.  Shellac is soft enough  that a plastic abrasive pad will smooth it without having to worry about rust.

[danbloch]

19 minutes ago, SpyGlass said:

Had a look  - Polaris is a simple kit - the sort of thing which is excellent as a first build.

 

I would  say that  if it is your first build  keep it as simple as possible - at times on this site there is simply tooo much information and there are always several ways how to do anything !! The great danger is that you try to get perfect and get discouraged  - so  many kits are never finished.

Better a not quite perfect  finished model than a never complete half done one

 

And the great way to learn is by doing.

 

But I wonder if this site should have a  "handy facts section " - like Jaagers warning about steel wool - I leant that lesson as one of my hull  got a bad case of the" black spots " a few weeks after I had proudly finished it to perfection.

 

Thank you I agree, but I am still looking for a specific answer. Can you just tell me to "use this product and do it like this."

Should I just use clear matte varnish and apply a couple coats with a brush?

[vaddoc]

Danbloch, it is difficult to recommend a very specific finish as things work differently for different situations and people. For example, I never liked shellac and I use a lot a water based sanding sealer, Tung oil and water based varnishes-enamel varnishes if I need extra tough protection. A lot of people use wipe on poly-never used it myself. Matt varnishes can be temperamental if the mat medium within is not stirred carefully.  

I think you need to try a few finishes on scrap pieces of wood and see what you like and what works for you. Cheap plywood is great to try finishes. Also, there are a lot of threads with relevant discussions with a wealth of information-have a look.

 

 Do not try your chosen finish on the model itself, a failure on a large surface will need a lot of work to fix.

[danbloch]

19 minutes ago, SpyGlass said:

Where are you located ? The trade names for products vary round the world.  

I always use a satin myself but no reason not to use a matte. just personal preference.

I normally use Ronseal satin coat clear varnish - interior or exterior but you have to be careful to get the solvent based one - they have a  water based one which is nearly identical.

And  as I say i find it wise to dilute it at least 20 %  . And I  brush apply on decks.  I usually use two coats straight on but the many guys use more coatswith sanding between - I am too idle for that !

If you make a mixture of 50/50 varnish and white spirit you get what  is really a " wipe on" varnish.  That I use on hulls I usually apply there with a lint free cloth.

There are some products in the US sold as wipe on ( MinWax ?) -   a US resident could better advise on the brands

I really appreciate this thank you!

[danbloch]

4 minutes ago, vaddoc said:

Danbloch, it is difficult to recommend a very specific finish as things work differently for different situations and people. For example, I never liked shellac and I use a lot a water based sanding sealer, Tung oil and water based varnishes-enamel varnishes if I need extra tough protection. A lot of people use wipe on poly-never used it myself. Matt varnishes can be temperamental if the mat medium within is not stirred carefully.  

I think you need to try a few finishes on scrap pieces of wood and see what you like and what works for you. Cheap plywood is great to try finishes. Also, there are a lot of threads with relevant discussions with a wealth of information-have a look.

 

 Do not try your chosen finish on the model itself, a failure on a large surface will need a lot of work to fix.

This is helpful thank you. I wanted to see if there was a "standard," and now I realize everyone does it slightly different, so I will jumo in and try something and see how it goes. 

[Bob Cleek]

 To summarize, there are different approaches. The easiest and most fool-proof is shellac. Varnishes and sealers are messy and can leave brush strokes if you don't know what you're doing. Most cost a lot more than shellac and denatured alcohol and have much shorter shelf-lives.

 

Do this and you shouldn't have any problems:

 

Get the Zinsser clear shellac and a quart or gallon of denatured alcohol at the paint or hardware store. (Save the Amazon shipping.) Stir the shellac in the can before use. Use a brush to apply it. Apply full strength out of the can to some scrap wood of the same species as what you intent to seal on the model. Just apply generously, or even just dip it in the can and shake/wipe off the excess. It is the consistency of water and will soak right into the wood. Let it dry (a few minutes) and see if it looks okay. If you think it's too thick, add some denatured alcohol to some shellac and repeat the testing process. Make sure the surface is totally clean before applying any finish. Use a "tack rag" from the paint or hardware store to pick up the dust. Keep the tack rag in a zip-lock plastic bag and it will last a long time. You can also use a bit of masking tape to pick up dust with the sticky side. When you have it like you want, apply to your model with the brush.

 

If you have properly prepared the wood surface prior to applying the shellac, you shouldn't need to do anything more for the finish. If it is too glossy (applied too thickly,) the excess shellac can easily be removed at any time with denatured alcohol. If the surface was dusty, you can rub the sealed surface with rottenstone and pummice, bronze wool, or a scotchbrite pad. (Bronze wool avoids the rust problems of steel wool, for a price.)

 

Clean your brush with denatured alcohol. Take care in cleaning the edge of the can and lid and replace the lid well. If your shellac ever thickens, you can easily thin it by adding more denatured alcohol. There's no risk to your health using these materials. 

 

You should have no concern about adhesives sticking to a surface sealed with shellac. In any event, all parts of a wood and metal model should to the greatest extent possible be secured not only by an adhesive, but also by some sort of mechanical fastening. This is usually a small peg set with glue into a drilled hole. 

 

Shellac is also very good for sealing rigging knots and stiffening rigging lines and coils of rope so it hangs naturally on the model. An application of denatured alcohol will easily soften the dried shellac to permit untying if need be. (Unlike other adhesives!) 

[danbloch]

44 minutes ago, Bob Cleek said:

 To summarize, there are different approaches. The easiest and most fool-proof is shellac. Varnishes and sealers are messy and can leave brush strokes if you don't know what you're doing. Most cost a lot more than shellac and denatured alcohol and have much shorter shelf-lives.

 

Do this and you shouldn't have any problems:

 

Get the Zinsser clear shellac and a quart or gallon of denatured alcohol at the paint or hardware store. (Save the Amazon shipping.) Stir the shellac in the can before use. Use a brush to apply it. Apply full strength out of the can to some scrap wood of the same species as what you intent to seal on the model. Just apply generously, or even just dip it in the can and shake/wipe off the excess. It is the consistency of water and will soak right into the wood. Let it dry (a few minutes) and see if it looks okay. If you think it's too thick, add some denatured alcohol to some shellac and repeat the testing process. Make sure the surface is totally clean before applying any finish. Use a "tack rag" from the paint or hardware store to pick up the dust. Keep the tack rag in a zip-lock plastic bag and it will last a long time. You can also use a bit of masking tape to pick up dust with the sticky side. When you have it like you want, apply to your model with the brush.

 

If you have properly prepared the wood surface prior to applying the shellac, you shouldn't need to do anything more for the finish. If it is too glossy (applied too thickly,) the excess shellac can easily be removed at any time with denatured alcohol. If the surface was dusty, you can rub the sealed surface with rottenstone and pummice, bronze wool, or a scotchbrite pad. (Bronze wool avoids the rust problems of steel wool, for a price.)

 

Clean your brush with denatured alcohol. Take care in cleaning the edge of the can and lid and replace the lid well. If your shellac ever thickens, you can easily thin it by adding more denatured alcohol. There's no risk to your health using these materials. 

 

You should have no concern about adhesives sticking to a surface sealed with shellac. In any event, all parts of a wood and metal model should to the greatest extent possible be secured not only by an adhesive, but also by some sort of mechanical fastening. This is usually a small peg set with glue into a drilled hole. 

 

Shellac is also very good for sealing rigging knots and stiffening rigging lines and coils of rope so it hangs naturally on the model. An application of denatured alcohol will easily soften the dried shellac to permit untying if need be. (Unlike other adhesives!) 

Thank you. I just ordered these exact things. (Amazon Prime so free shipping).  I just needed some direction, I didn't realize there were so many options!

[Bob Cleek]

31 minutes ago, danbloch said:

I just needed some direction, I didn't realize there were so many options!

Yes. Finishing wood has become one of those things like mousetraps, everybody's trying to market a better one. At best, they haven't come up with much of anything better than the old tried and true methods. (Although some of the polyurethane "bar varnishes" are remarkably durable.) Norm Abram was always touting Minwax's "wipe on poly" finishes on his New Yankee Workshop, along with all the newest Delta stationary power tools. The show's sponsors were, you guessed it, Delta and Minwax. Nothing wrong with Minwax wipe on poly if you don't mind paying the same price for half as much expensive material cut with cheap paint thinner. That kind of marketing would get a dope dealer whacked in a hot minute. Woodworkers are more easily duped than junkies are, I guess.

 

By the way, I seal all my wood and card material on models with shellac. It's a very good moisture barrier which minimizes wood movement when the ambient humidity changes.  Softwoods like basswood can be sanded after sealing with shellac and will not leave a "fuzzed" surface. Shellac stiffens paper and card stock and prevents adhesive "bleed-through." It's what confectioners use to make jelly beans and M&M's shiny, too. Shellac has lots of uses.

[danbloch]

14 hours ago, Bob Cleek said:

Yes. Finishing wood has become one of those things like mousetraps, everybody's trying to market a better one. At best, they haven't come up with much of anything better than the old tried and true methods. (Although some of the polyurethane "bar varnishes" are remarkably durable.) Norm Abram was always touting Minwax's "wipe on poly" finishes on his New Yankee Workshop, along with all the newest Delta stationary power tools. The show's sponsors were, you guessed it, Delta and Minwax. Nothing wrong with Minwax wipe on poly if you don't mind paying the same price for half as much expensive material cut with cheap paint thinner. That kind of marketing would get a dope dealer whacked in a hot minute. Woodworkers are more easily duped than junkies are, I guess.

 

By the way, I seal all my wood and card material on models with shellac. It's a very good moisture barrier which minimizes wood movement when the ambient humidity changes.  Softwoods like basswood can be sanded after sealing with shellac and will not leave a "fuzzed" surface. Shellac stiffens paper and card stock and prevents adhesive "bleed-through." It's what confectioners use to make jelly beans and M&M's shiny, too. Shellac has lots of uses.

Thanks again for taking time to help me. That goes for everyone in this thread! My Shellac arrives Friday and I can't wait to get started again. Ill be back with more questions soon I am sure. 

[M.R.Field]

I have used shellac for many years to dampproof the model buildings I make from Card, from highly specific card like CS 10 line board to cornflake packets.  They are still, after 35 years in some cases, perfect, despite moving with me to all sorts of places including living on 2 boats.

 

Shellac comes in many forms. The most common is French Polish which is used on fine furniture. Also known as button polish, but essentially the same shellac, which is a natural plant based substance.  In Britain we would always thin it with what we call Methylated Spirits, sometimes a purple colour (which doesn't show), sometimes clear, but always with the most wonderful "Grandad's shed" smell.  My Grandad was a top cabinet maker and made his own stains and polishes with meths. as the base.  I still have a bottle of one of his stained polishes, which is so old now it smells of the best red wine and looks like vintage port!

 

When I tried to find denatured alcohol here I drew a blank and it took an Anglophile American chum to offer the fact that it's what we Limeys call Meths.  It's what we burn in the boilers of Mamod and S.E.L. toy steam engines too (another of my passions).  It has a wonderful sweet smell. It is purple allegedly to stop winos drinking it!

 

Finally, although I use cellulose sanding sealer (as on my Vanity cutter build's deck), I do have some shellac based sanding sealer and that has a French chalk filler in it to help fill grain.  It doesn't dry white.

I would never use any water based product on wood. It would always raise grain and fuzziness.  And we need nice smells in the workshop.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Martin

[vaddoc]

There are many options to seal and finish wood and everyone does things differently, what works for one does not work for another. But technology has moved on and a lot of modern products are excellent.

I almost exclusively use water based sealers and paints, they dry and are ready to sand in 20 min and are not toxic. Very easy to use and a very long shelf life. A quick touch with the sanding paper makes the surface smooth, even reflecting light if needed. I ve been so happy with the results that really did not look further. For darker woods I like Tung oil very much. 

Try a few things and see what you like.

[Bob Cleek]

5 hours ago, vaddoc said:

I almost exclusively use water based sealers and paints, they dry and are ready to sand in 20 min and are not toxic. Very easy to use and a very long shelf life. A quick touch with the sanding paper makes the surface smooth, even reflecting light if needed. I ve been so happy with the results that really did not look further. For darker woods I like Tung oil very much. 

Try a few things and see what you like.

Try shellac and see if you like it.   It dries in less than 20 minutes and less if you blow on it. It is not toxic at all. It's edible, save for the denatured alcohol, and used in candy manufacturing. It sands easily once dry and a perfectly smooth surface is easily obtained. It's also used as a fine furniture finish. Not to mention that it's far less costly than any of its equivalents.

 

Tung oil is fine for making traditional varnish, but in raw form, it takes a long time to dry. (It doesn't really dry. As an oil, it "polymerizes," if that's the right term for it.) In order to speed drying, "driers" are often added. These are seriously hazardous heavy metals, although less so in the small amounts used for that purpose.

 

I agree that  there are many options and that "technology has moved on, " but often while that technology may offer ease of use or other consumer-enticing qualities, its toxicity, compatibility with other finishes, and longevity may be in question. Just sayin'. Everybody's mileage seems to differ these days, it seems. Pick your poison.  

[vaddoc]

I did tried Shellac Bob, never really liked it! Also I dislike the smell of methylated spirits. You can get "boiled" Tung oil which polymerises much faster but I have had no problems with the normal one. Smells fantastic too!

I think the main advice should be to test on scrap wood, not on the model! A few months ago I was too impatient to test thinning my polyurethane varnish and applied directly to my rudder, painted 3 colours each with a dozen coats. When the varnish congealed I had to sand it and start again!

[BobG]

On 5/18/2020 at 10:42 AM, vaddoc said:

A lot of people use wipe on poly

I have used Satin Wipe-on-Poly on 3 models including my Medway Longboat and I have been very happy with the finish. I have also found that glue will bond just fine over it. I tried some tests where I compared the strength of two pieces of yellow cedar wood glued together with bare wood and on wood that had been finished with Wipe-on-Poly. Both of the joints were very strong. It's easy to use and I think it looks great to me so I'm happy with it.

[Bob Cleek]

13 hours ago, vaddoc said:

You can get "boiled" Tung oil which polymerises much faster but I have had no problems with the normal one. Smells fantastic too!

Tung oil does have a nice aroma. The "boiled" tung oil, as with "boiled" linseed oil, isn't really boiled. It has Japan drier (cobalt, manganese) added to it to speed polymerization. 

[danbloch]

On 5/22/2020 at 5:33 AM, Bob Cleek said:

Tung oil does have a nice aroma. The "boiled" tung oil, as with "boiled" linseed oil, isn't really boiled. It has Japan drier (cobalt, manganese) added to it to speed polymerization. 

I have some follow-up questions if you don't mind...

 

After I applied the double coat of shellac and let it dry, the next step was to glue the deck onto the "ribs," (I don't know what to call it). I had two problems:

1) I had to weigh it down to allow the glue to dry, and since it is curved I needed something pressing into the center. I placed the boat center down onto a roll of tape and placed books on top. This resulted in leaving a circular mark in the shellac finish from the tape roll pressing in, as shown in the pictures below. How do I fix this?

2) Getting the deck to stick to the ribs was very difficult and I showed my "beginerism" by using way too much glue, as shown in the picture. However, I am thinking that since this is on the underside of the deck, it won't show and isn't a problem. Is this ok?

[Jim T]

This has been an informative and very helpful thread.

 

Jim

[turangi]

I'm not sure if that's residue from the tape but I would rub down the area with Alcohol and see what happens. You could even do the whole deck and just reapply the shellac. If it is tape adhesive residue the alcohol will probable remove it, if it isn't the rubdown should even out the finish and another coat could be applied. The beauty of shellac is it is very forgiving and problems quite easily corrected unlike some of the solvent based finishes. Don't panic or get discouraged, you will sort it out. 

[Bob Cleek]

5 hours ago, danbloch said:

I have some follow-up questions if you don't mind...

 

After I applied the double coat of shellac and let it dry, the next step was to glue the deck onto the "ribs," (I don't know what to call it). I had two problems:

1) I had to weigh it down to allow the glue to dry, and since it is curved I needed something pressing into the center. I placed the boat center down onto a roll of tape and placed books on top. This resulted in leaving a circular mark in the shellac finish from the tape roll pressing in, as shown in the pictures below. How do I fix this?

2) Getting the deck to stick to the ribs was very difficult and I showed my "beginerism" by using way too much glue, as shown in the picture. However, I am thinking that since this is on the underside of the deck, it won't show and isn't a problem. Is this ok?

1.   The problem of securing planks to deck beams can be addressed in a variety of ways. 

 

a)   You can drill a small hole in the plank where a trunnel would be set and use a push-pin through that hole to temporarily hold the plank against the deck beam until the glue dries. Then plug the hole with a tiny wooden peg of the same material as the plank. (Drilling a small hole first prevents splitting when the tack is placed.)

 

b)   You can use a small dot of fast-curing CA adhesive ("Super Glue") on each deck beam with wood glue on either side of it to "tack" the plank to the deck beam. The wood glue will then dry while the CA holds it and will provide the primary bond.

 

c)   You can glue the planks as you have done, but also drill small holes through the plank and into the beam and drive scale trunnels into the holes to hold the planks down. The trunnels have to be sized to fit tightly into the holes. When water-based wood glue is applied to the small trunnel pegs, they will swell slightly when the water is absorbed and hold the plank fast. This method is tricky and will take some experimenting to master.

 

d)   You can glue the planks as you have done with wood glue and use a plank bending iron or similar heat source to heat the top of the plank above each deck beam. The heat will cause the wood glue to harden and hold very quickly. Care must be taken not to scorch the top of the plank, of course.

 

I'm not sure what sort of tape it was that transferred to the deck planks, but it's adhesive is probably soluble in acetone or "Goof Off," a solvent sold in paint stores to remove paint splatters. "Goof Off" is great stuff for modeling purposes. It will remove most paints and varnishes and works well for cleaning air brushes, etc. It is much less aggressive than acetone and won't eat down into painted surfaces below the paint you want to clean off of them. Try a bit of "Goof Off" on a soft cloth and see if that removes the tape adhesive that has transferred to the deck surface. It that doesn't work, exercise the "thermonuclear option" and wipe it off with a soft cloth with acetone on it. Do this in a well ventilated place and be aware that acetone fumes are explosive, so keep it away from open flames. Lighter fluid can also be used instead of acetone. (Carbon tetrachloride ("cleaning fluid") also works great, but it's not readily obtainable anymore due to its toxicity.)  The dried shellac should be impervious to these solvents, but you should take a scrap piece of planking stock and shellac it, then test the solvent on that piece when the shellac dries to make sure the solvent isn't going to damage the shellacked surface. Also, if you put the pencil marking for the seams and fasteners on after the shellac, test this in a similar fashion to make sure the solvent won't spread the pencil lead all over the deck surface and make a huge mess.

 

If there weren't so much pencil lead on the surface, I'd say that the tape adhesive could easily be removed along with the shellac beneath it by simply applying alcohol to the shellacked surface and wiping it all off and reapplying the shellac, but I fear doing so would end up spreading a mixture of alcohol, shellac, and pencil lead all over the surface which would probably end up requiring the whole surface to be sanded clean to repair that mess.

 

Alternately, you can lightly sand, or better yet, lightly scrape with a sharp edged blade, the deck surface to remove the tape adhesive and see if that works. Additional thinned shellac can be applied over the scraped area. This will take some care. You can also sand or scrape the entire deck, removing the pencil-marked plank butts and fastener "dots" and refinish the deck entirely. This would permit you to reconsider your planking length and butt spacing, which can be determined by use of standard construction practices. (Use the search engine here to find discussions on plank length and plank butt spacing.) Plank fasteners would never be black, as you've depicted them, but rather would be wooden, being either trunnels (pegs) or metal fasteners (spikes or screws) in counterbored holes covered with wooden plugs. From a scale distance, these would be invisible. Their appearance can also be faked by using a piece of scale metal tubing (the diameter of the plug you want to mimic) with its edge sharpened. The tubing is tapped with a small hammer to create a light circular indentation which appears as a plug on the face of the plank. Some obsessive-compulsive modelers have gone so far as to employ this technique using hypodermic needles to obtain very tiny "plugs."  

 

2)   There's no problem whatsoever with excess glue in places where it doesn't show. In fact, the structure of a bulkheaded model can be considerably stiffened and strengthened by applying generous fillets of glue or epoxy at all hidden joint angles where the backbone and bulkheads meet anything else, particularly the sub-decking.

 

Hope this helps!

[danbloch]

1 hour ago, Bob Cleek said:

1.   The problem of securing planks to deck beams can be addressed in a variety of ways. 

 

a)   You can drill a small hole in the plank where a trunnel would be set and use a push-pin through that hole to temporarily hold the plank against the deck beam until the glue dries. Then plug the hole with a tiny wooden peg of the same material as the plank. (Drilling a small hole first prevents splitting when the tack is placed.)

 

b)   You can use a small dot of fast-curing CA adhesive ("Super Glue") on each deck beam with wood glue on either side of it to "tack" the plank to the deck beam. The wood glue will then dry while the CA holds it and will provide the primary bond.

 

c)   You can glue the planks as you have done, but also drill small holes through the plank and into the beam and drive scale trunnels into the holes to hold the planks down. The trunnels have to be sized to fit tightly into the holes. When water-based wood glue is applied to the small trunnel pegs, they will swell slightly when the water is absorbed and hold the plank fast. This method is tricky and will take some experimenting to master.

 

d)   You can glue the planks as you have done with wood glue and use a plank bending iron or similar heat source to heat the top of the plank above each deck beam. The heat will cause the wood glue to harden and hold very quickly. Care must be taken not to scorch the top of the plank, of course.

 

I'm not sure what sort of tape it was that transferred to the deck planks, but it's adhesive is probably soluble in acetone or "Goof Off," a solvent sold in paint stores to remove paint splatters. "Goof Off" is great stuff for modeling purposes. It will remove most paints and varnishes and works well for cleaning air brushes, etc. It is much less aggressive than acetone and won't eat down into painted surfaces below the paint you want to clean off of them. Try a bit of "Goof Off" on a soft cloth and see if that removes the tape adhesive that has transferred to the deck surface. It that doesn't work, exercise the "thermonuclear option" and wipe it off with a soft cloth with acetone on it. Do this in a well ventilated place and be aware that acetone fumes are explosive, so keep it away from open flames. Lighter fluid can also be used instead of acetone. (Carbon tetrachloride ("cleaning fluid") also works great, but it's not readily obtainable anymore due to its toxicity.)  The dried shellac should be impervious to these solvents, but you should take a scrap piece of planking stock and shellac it, then test the solvent on that piece when the shellac dries to make sure the solvent isn't going to damage the shellacked surface. Also, if you put the pencil marking for the seams and fasteners on after the shellac, test this in a similar fashion to make sure the solvent won't spread the pencil lead all over the deck surface and make a huge mess.

 

If there weren't so much pencil lead on the surface, I'd say that the tape adhesive could easily be removed along with the shellac beneath it by simply applying alcohol to the shellacked surface and wiping it all off and reapplying the shellac, but I fear doing so would end up spreading a mixture of alcohol, shellac, and pencil lead all over the surface which would probably end up requiring the whole surface to be sanded clean to repair that mess.

 

Alternately, you can lightly sand, or better yet, lightly scrape with a sharp edged blade, the deck surface to remove the tape adhesive and see if that works. Additional thinned shellac can be applied over the scraped area. This will take some care. You can also sand or scrape the entire deck, removing the pencil-marked plank butts and fastener "dots" and refinish the deck entirely. This would permit you to reconsider your planking length and butt spacing, which can be determined by use of standard construction practices. (Use the search engine here to find discussions on plank length and plank butt spacing.) Plank fasteners would never be black, as you've depicted them, but rather would be wooden, being either trunnels (pegs) or metal fasteners (spikes or screws) in counterbored holes covered with wooden plugs. From a scale distance, these would be invisible. Their appearance can also be faked by using a piece of scale metal tubing (the diameter of the plug you want to mimic) with its edge sharpened. The tubing is tapped with a small hammer to create a light circular indentation which appears as a plug on the face of the plank. Some obsessive-compulsive modelers have gone so far as to employ this technique using hypodermic needles to obtain very tiny "plugs."  

 

2)   There's no problem whatsoever with excess glue in places where it doesn't show. In fact, the structure of a bulkheaded model can be considerably stiffened and strengthened by applying generous fillets of glue or epoxy at all hidden joint angles where the backbone and bulkheads meet anything else, particularly the sub-decking.

 

Hope this helps!

The included instructions had me pencil in the lines and dots before the shellac went on. I don't really want to completely refinish the deck, (unless you think its a good idea), so I will try and scrape/sand it off first, or ill try the Goof Off. Can you explain what you mean by "reconsider your planking length and butt spacing?" Again, I am just following instructions. Did I do something poorly?

[Bob Cleek]

"The included instructions had me pencil in the lines and dots before the shellac went on. I don't really want to completely refinish the deck, (unless you think its a good idea), so I will try and scrape/sand it off first, or ill try the Goof Off. Can you explain what you mean by "reconsider your planking length and butt spacing?" Again, I am just following instructions. Did I do something poorly?"

 

It's good that you shellacked over the pencil marks. That will prevent the pencil lead from smearing if you try to remove the tape adhesive with solvent. I'd try the solvent, Goof Off or acetone, first. The adhesive will probably wipe off easily. If not, then try scraping. Scraping is the more radical option. If you need to, you can always scrape and sand the surface down to bare wood and refinish the whole thing. You wouldn't be the first of us who's done that. (Don't ask me how I know this!  )

 

Well, it's not that big of a deal, but black dots don't represent the appearance of a laid wooden deck. Metal fastenings through the planks into the deck beams are always covered with a wooden plug of the same species of wood used for the planking, or fastened with trunnels (pegs) and, from a distance, are virtually invisible. I don't know why the instructions would have one represent deck planking fastenings with a black pencil dot.  Metal fastenings are always set deeply into the deck planks and plugged with wood so that fastenings, which were often iron on older ships would not rust and would not stand proud when the deck wore down some. If trunnels (wooden pegs) were used to fasten the deck planks, they were wood-colored and not black. (Trunnels were often made of a slightly darker wood of a different species, frequently of locust.) The wood plugs or trunnels also permitted the decks to be "holystoned," that being "sanded" clean with flat stones having a hole in the center which permitted a long handle to be inserted so they could be swung back and forth like a mop. This kept decks, which were often covered with tar dripping from the rigging aloft, particularly in the heat of the tropics, clean, but at the cost of considerable abrasion of the wood over time. Holystoning wouldn't be possible if nail heads were standing proud of the surface of the deck.

 

As for the planking, I'm not certain of the scale of your model, and it is a somewhat esoteric detail which may not matter to you at this point in your modeling, but there are scale considerations with plank length. How long would the average deck plank be on your vessel? The longer the better. Planking stock was rarely longer than twenty-four to thirty feet long because that was the limit of what could be gotten out of the tree. A deck would not be planked with six foot planks. The distance between the planking butts (ends) should be somewhere in the range of 18' to 24'. On the model, that should be reflected in the applicable scale size. The length is significant because it affects the butt spacing in the same way bricks are laid so the vertical joints are staggered. If the plank butts all were placed on the same deck beam, that would be a very weak deck at that point. If the planks are staggered "like bricks in a wall" so that the butts are all as far apart as possible on each deck beam, that will yield the strongest deck structure possible. There are methods of laying out the deck planking to "stagger the butts." The below thread explains the methods of laying out deck planking in great detail. This is a small detail and failing to do it correctly doesn't "ruin" a model at all, but it is good to remember that a model is a collection of small details which  make up a whole. The more small details that are done right, the better the model.