Rigging without sails for a kit that has them - what to keep or remove?

[cbeckenb]

Hi all,

I am working on the Occre Corsair, which comes with sails and the instructions assume you will use them.

I do not want to put on sails, but I am not sure what things I should leave off or not. The instructions are pretty good about showing what rigging belongs to the sails:

 

 

But there are things like the blocks next to the mast on the yards that don't appear to be used except for sails.. do I just leave those off then?

Or in this diagram there are obviously lots of lines for sails, but should I just leave those out entirely? Would some of these things be left on the ship even without sails?

 

(there are 8 sheets of similar diagrams)

 

Any of you more experienced folks and ship experts have advice on what I should do?

[Jim Lad]

If a ship were in port for only a short time with the sails sent down then all the sail rigging may well have been left in place, however if the sails were sent down for an extended period their associated rigging would also have been sent down, so it's really entirely up to you whether you show the sail rigging or not.

 

John

[allanyed]

You can pretty much include all lines, including buntlines, leechlines, sheets, and tacks.  If you look at some contemporary model photos such as those at RMG and Preble Hall, you can see how they rig as most contemporary model do not include sails.   I agree with your decision not to install sails as there are no existing kits that I have seen or heard about that have sails that are remotely close to being to scale.   One photo of a model at Preble Hall  as an example without sails follows.  Hopefully other members will have suggestions of where to look for more information. Obviously you will need more close ups &c but this will give you an idea of the look without sails.  Lots of beautiful models are ruined when cloth sails are added unless the model is a large scale such as 1:12 or maybe 1:24.  If you do decide to go with sails, consider silkspan.  There is an inexpensive booklet by David Antscherl available from Seawatch Books and some You Tube videos on how to make sails with silkspan as well as some information here at MSW.   

 

Allan

 

   

 

 

[Gregory]

Without sails, I think braces and lifts make for a clean look.

[popeye2sea]

On 7/22/2021 at 6:37 PM, Gregory said:

Without sails, I think braces and lifts make for a clean look.

Braces and lifts are not sail rigging, so they would be there regardless.  Even if you do not wish to include lines for the sails like the sheets and clews, bow lines and leech lines, the blocks on the yard would have stayed in place even after unreeving the lines.

 

Just in case you were not aware, in your rigging diagram above, the lines in red are the braces and lifts. They will stay rigged with or without sails.

 

Regards,

[cbeckenb]

Thank you for the advice, everyone!

I am examining some photos of brigs in the RMG collection trying to get an idea of what lines are included. Not being familiar with them all, it is taking some research to figure out what line is what. Lennarth Petersson's book is a great resource while I figure this out.

 

I like the idea of leaving on as much as possible (where it makes sense) since I think rigging is one of the most impressive features of model ships (and it's my favorite part of the build).

So the strategy will be to leave the blocks and such on the model, and as I get closer to the rigging stage I think I will get a better understanding of how it will all go. If it turns out too busy I might end up leaving some out.

[Gregory]

11 minutes ago, cbeckenb said:

 I think rigging is one of the most impressive features of model ships (and it's my favorite part of the build.

 

There are the trees, and there is the forest..

 

While the rigging in many ways defines these ships and their models, what the modeler hopes to achieve is worth consideration..

 

If you are going to model without sails, I feel a lot of the sail handling rigging would detract from what you have in the absence of sails..

 

 

Edited July 25, 2021 by Gregory

[allanyed]

C.

Remember  that Lennarth Peterson's book is specific to one ship and one era, a three masted British 36 gun 5th rate of 1785 so other sources may be worth investigating that are closer to a brig such as your corsair.  

Allan  

 

[glbarlow]

I rigged Pegasus with every line it would have including sail handling, without including sails.  It's a lot of work but worth doing at least once, it does make a compelling model to see how much rigging the real ships carried. It isn't necessary to include the sails if you want to include the sail tackle. Really your aesthetic choice on how you want to see it completed with or without.

Edited July 25, 2021 by glbarlow

[John Fox III]

There is a bolt rope attached to the outside perimeter of sails, to which blocks and lines were attached. When I built models without sails I added just the bolt rope, which allowed me to include all the sail rigging to the model.

 

Anchor's A Weigh!

John Fox III

[cbeckenb]

6 minutes ago, allanyed said:

C.

Remember  that Lennarth Peterson's book is specific to one ship and one era, a three masted British 36 gun 5th rate of 1785 so other sources may be worth investigating that are closer to a brig such as your corsair.  

Allan  

 

 

Hmm good point.

The Occre Corsair is fictional and does not really have a time period established anywhere that I can find so I am not too concerned about being period-correct. Only hint is that it's supposed to be a merchant vessel converted for privateering, but that doesn't really tell me anything.

 

"This originally merchant brigantine was transformed when it got into the hands of the corsairs, and fitted out with 16 cannons and 4 falconets, which all helped them to carry out their misdeeds with better chances of success."

[cbeckenb]

9 minutes ago, John Fox III said:

There is a bolt rope attached to the outside perimeter of sails, to which blocks and lines were attached. When I built models without sails I added just the bolt rope, which allowed me to include all the sail rigging to the model.

 

Anchor's A Weigh!

John Fox III

 

Is that this rope I've highlighted here?

[allanyed]

C,

That brings up even more of an issue.  Were they Barbary Corsairs, or French Corsairs?    Sounds like it might have been the Arab corsairs as the French corsairs were state authorized privateers.  

 

John,  the bolt rope was "stitched" around the entire perimeter of the sails.  How did you rig the bolt rope to the model without the sails?  Pictures??  Probably a simple answer but I just cannot get my head around this one.  Thanks!!!

 

Allan

[John Fox III]

C.

The bolt rope goes around, stitched to, the entire perimeter of the sail, top/bottom and both sides. Basically it completely surrounds the sails, as Allan says it is stitched to the outside perimeter. The line you outlined above is just part of that bolt rope.

 

Allan

Simply make a loop of line as long as the perimeter of the sails, adding blocks where necessary to run rigging if there was a real sail. Unfortunately, no photos as when I did make larger scale models without sails I had a very old, limited digital camera and only have entire model shots. At the top edge, i.e. at the yard, the bare bolt rope can be laid along the yard and wrapped as if there was a sail, or attached to the jack stay if the yard had them, just as if there were a sail attached to the bolt rope. For jib sails it's the same, add blocks for the sheet lines and uplift/downhaul lines at the bolt rope corners, plus rings or lines tying the bolt rope to the stays.

 

Anchor's A Weigh!

John Fox III

[Gregory]

1 hour ago, John Fox III said:

The bolt rope goes around, stitched to, the entire perimeter of the sail,

Exactly..

Hard to wrap my head around this with no sail present..

 

It would be like adding reef points with no sails..