HMS GREYHOUND by Jackson7 - Corel - Collaboration With My Past Self

[Jackson7]

I'm sure you're all in a terrible amount of suspense. Did I wreck the ship at some point in the last forty-eight hours? 

 

I was thinking the same thing. But my internet went down last night and I couldn't get the result back until now.

 

Here's what happened.

 

 

First, I drew a line in pencil on both sides about where I wanted the keel, and I used tacks to secure a plank to the side for reference.

 

Next, I cut using an x-Acto knife, trying to keep away from both the keel and the pencil line.

 

 

The process was long and nerve-wracking, but easier than expected. Plywood is weak, and at some points the walnut wood keel naturally separated from it without much trouble. I could easily scrape off the remaining flakes of plywood on it without any trouble.

 

 

I used sandpaper wrapped around a straight board to grind down the rough edge of the keel. To my surprise and joy, it came out so straight and smooth that it looked like I had never cut it at all. 

 

After extensive measurements to make sure I wouldn't have to repeat the whole miserable procedure, I wiped off the sawdust and got to gluing. I used the time-honored "Gulliver's Travels Technique" to provide pressure over the whole structure.

 

 

It worked, although the wood was a tiny bit curved and was also now slightly shorter than the hull. It appears the keel got narrower as it went down.

 

 

 

To correct the curve, I sanded away the worst bits. By the end, the warping was hardly noticeable.

 

The stern of the ship was too long anyway according to the diagrams, so I felt no concern whatsoever about taking the sandpaper to that too.

 

 

At present, everything lines up wonderfully, and looks straight and flat.

 

Thanks for the advice, @harlequin and @Snug Harbor Johnny! I couldn't have done it without y'all.

 

 

[GrandpaPhil]

Looking good!

[Jackson7]

Christmas is near! The angels sing, the bells ring, and the planks once more resume the march along the hull of my frigate.

 

To make the garboard plank, I used office clamps to hold two plans together, then sanded them until they made a good curve. Because I sanded them together, they are now exactly alike. and will be perfectly symmetrical on both sides

 

 

Then, I began to bend the next plank, using their curve as a model. I traced the curve of the garboard planks onto my wooden anvil, then boiled the plank I needed bent for twenty minutes. 

 

 

When the curve wasn't enough, I boiled it again, then added more bend. When it was as perfect as I could get it, I did a little sanding on the inside of the curve.

 

By the end, the two pieces fit together perfectly.

 

 

 

 

When this step was done, I sanded the top edge of the first garboard plank to an angle so it would fit cleanly onto the ship. It feels good to be making progress again.

 

 

 

 

 

[Jackson7]

Since last update, I put the two garboard planks on. They glued on well, and there's now no bare space between the hull and the keel.

 

I've just glued on the second hull plank, and am shaping the third. 

 

So far, everything is going beautifully.

 

[Jackson7]

Merry Christmas and happy New Year to you all. I visited with family and left the ship at home. 

 

Since I last posted, I've added three more planks. Everything is coming together smoothly.

 

The nice think is that I've learned from the first layer of hull on how to fit the rest together well. 

 

The only setback was accidentally stabbing my finger while putting in one of the tacks. Blood, sweat and tears is the name of the game on these things.

 

 

 

[Jackson7]

 

I haven't given many updates because most of these pieces have been pretty similar, but i'm now up to eight planks. 

 

Only one real disaster happened. I broke one of the planks while putting it on, and it's now too short to go onto any part of the lower hull. 

 

The experience only confirmed my intuition that I need to buy more 1x4mm walnut wood. But for now, I'll just take it one step at a time.

 

It's probably a good time here to talk about my long-term plan for the whole hull. 

 

According to measurements I made early in the process, the center of the ship is about 17.5 planks from keel to gunwale. The stern is 16 planks, and the bow is 15.

 

At the bow, I effectively make it 16 planks too by trimming the garboard plank to a point. That leaves me about 1 plank to lose plus whatever measuring inaccuracies I inevitably perpetrate. 

 

That still leaves me one plank and change short of the center.

 

To solve that problem, I plan to take one millimeter off the end of four planks on each side. So far, I've given two planks this treatment, and they look good.

 

 

 

I'll compensate the remaining two millimeters with the last couple planks where it'll be less difficult to measure an irregular curved surface.

 

I'm very dependent on eyeballing.

 

Of course, the fun part of the last two will be discovering how to fit planks to the hull without leaving nail marks.

 

My working theory is to use boiling and bending to get planks to the most perfect shape I can manage, then use weights, fingers, tape, or a combination of all of the above. 

 

If there's a better technique, I'll hope to discover it before then.

 

 

[Jackson7]

 

I'm at the 1/3 done mark. Six planks on each side. Sanding one side of each plank to an angle along the whole length has worked like a charm. These ones are a far cleaner fit than the other planks.

 

Looking from the inside of the ship, I can't see a single mote of light through the lowest part of the ship.

 

After I sand 1mm off the current two planks, I'll have dropped one plank width off the stern and two plank widths from the side.

 

This change leaves me with about 17.5 planks in the center, and about 17 at either end. I can sand out that difference by eye once I have only a few planks left. With my current tools--and the difficulty of measuring a curved surface--I trust that method more than I trust my ability to get that clean of a measurement.

 

There's only one piece of bad news. I'm now sure I'm seven planks short of actually completing the ship. Five are missing, and two in the kit are somewhat deformed.

 

What's the best store to order 1x4mm walnut strips in the USA?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[allanyed]

The forward portion of the planks are supposed to taper to about half the width that they are midships.  You need to mark out with a tick strip the width of the planks along each bulkhead to get them exact.  If you study the planking tutorials here at MSW and look at a few build logs you will see what I mean and they will help you wind up with a very nicely planked hull.  The planks should not bend as you have them.   The first layer of planking is actually closer to how they should look.  If you study a plank expansion drawing as well, it will give you an idea of the shape of the planks.  One example is below (the outboard planking is the lower drawing) and there are a few on the Wiki Commons site as well as at the RMG site.  

As to finding wood, I will be very surprised if anything you find is a good color match to the material you already used.   I hate to say this (and this is just one opinion thus probably not worth a whole lot) but you are probably better off to remove all the second layer planks and start over with better planking material such as Alaskan cedar, Castello, or some other close grained wood rather than the wood that you have which is extremely grainy.   Allan

 

 

[Jackson7]

Hello @allanyed, thanks for your comment.

 

I'm glad to get your advice. Unfortunately, it probably got to me about three months too late. As matters stand, I'm afraid I'll have to work with the planking strategy I have. 

 

"I am in blood wood/ Stepped in so far that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o’er.”—Macbeth

 

[allanyed]

Jackson

Three months too late??  That is not really that much time lost to do things correctly, but most of us (me included) have been guilty of being too lazy to make things right at times and then regret it later.

Allan

[Jackson7]

 

http://modelshipworldforum.com/resources/Framing_and_Planking/plankingprojectbeginners.pdf

 

Your answer leaves me wondering about several things I've previously evaluated. You're probably right that if I truly had the will, I could actually remove what I've done so far. 

 

My current planking technique comes from these two posts. The first one says that curving the planks onto the hull in my current way keeps the hull from becoming 'clinker built,' and the longboat is a build where this technique seems to have worked out decently.

 

Is there something different about building a large ship that I missed? What exactly is wrong with the technique I'm using?

 

 

Edited January 21, 2022 by Jackson7
Left some words out.

[Jackson7]

 

 

After long consideration, I've decided to continue with the current planking of the hull without changing my plans. 

 

I appreciate the advice, but I've elected not to follow it.

 

Here are my reasons:

 

1: The first layer of the hull went on relatively badly, and I sanded it to an extreme thinness in some places to remedy those errors. I don't trust that these planks will survive if I attempt to separate what I've already glued in place. I also don't want to drive tacks through the hull into the supporting wood a third time. There has to be a limit somewhere on how much it can bear, and I'd prefer not to discover it by snapping something irreplaceable.

 

2: I've just ordered another shipment of appropriately-sized walnut planks. They look right online. If they don't work, I might consider using a gentle stain to fix the color.

 

3: If anything proves truly unfixable with the present challenges, I can measure and sand problem planks until they fit together well.

 

At any rate, 'a doomed voyage' has a certain appeal all its own.

 

At this point, I have four more planks done, with about twenty to go.

 

 

 

 

[Jackson7]

 

This step marks the halfway point on the hull!

 

Finished applying the third plank from the top on both sides. It's pretty much identical, so one side does the photo fairly well.

 

After a few careful measurements, I've discovered that I have about eight and a half planks left in the middle. In the bow, the ship is about seven planks wide, so I need to file away one millimeter per plank on four planks. On the stern, I need to lose about two millimeters.

 

If I can do that, everything should fit in well. The real magic trick will be finding a way to put the last plank on without nail marks, but I do have a cunning plan... I'll explain later.

[Dave_E]

Press onward! 👍🙂 I’ve pulled up my watch chair.

[allanyed]

Jackson,  Sorry to beat a dead horse, but unless you remove the garboard and the five strakes above it  and start again this will be even a bigger frustrating mess.  The problem started when you put on the garboard strake upside down.  Again, look at the contemporary planking expansion above and the sketch  below to see what I mean.  Dirk's tutorial on planking that you used was his own idea.  He worked with me on a project and we discussed and emailed about this in March, 2009 and in the end he agreed it was a bad idea as it does not work.  Notice he showed no photos as he never could get it to work.  Why it is still on MSW is a mystery.  If you study the tutorials by Chuck Passaro and David Antscherl you will have no problems.  https://thenrg.org/resources/Documents/articles/LiningOffYourHullPlankingTutorialAndFan.pdf    and https://thenrg.org/resources/Documents/articles/APrimerOnPlanking.pdf

Allan

 

 

[Jackson7]

Hey @allanyed, it's no problem. I appreciate all the help I can get. As the Bible says, "wounds from a friend are worth more than kisses from an enemy."

 

I haven't responded yet because it's a busy week, and I have made little progress on the ship.

 

I'm open to fixing the ship in the way you describe, but I doubt at this point whether it's even physically possible. The planks I'd have to cut through are a ton thinner than the earlier drastic repair I made, and they seem to be at least modestly well-aligned as it is.

 

You've see that on the beginning of this hull, I didn't build very well and compensated for several errors by doing a lot of sanding. There are places where the bottom layer is not even half a millimeter thick. 

 

I use a strong glue for all my stuff, and I'm not sure if I can take back what I've done already without causing more damage than I would have averted.

 

Do you think it would fix the bad alignment if I sanded the outer layer of planks down until they formed a straighter line?

 

Also, the longboat in this link seemed to work with the planking structure Dirk used: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/1465-18th-century-longboat-by-bobf-finished-model-shipways-148-tri-club/page/2/

 

 

Does that mean it'll work on my ship if I'm careful, or is there some element at play that I failed to grasp?

 

[allanyed]

I really see no way to fix this without removing the planks and starting over, but other members here might have some better advice.  The main problem is that your garboard curves in the wrong direction at the forward end.  It needs to curve to match the run of the rabbet.   My apologies for not having more precise information.   Study the other planking tutorials and forget Dirk's.  The methods given by Chuck Passaro and David Antscherl are diverse but both work.

Allan

[VTHokiEE]

I have a thought (it is entirely up to you whether it is good or bad as I'm undecided) but if you really don't want to back track your best bet might be to paint below the waterline (I have no clue if this would be historically accurate or not so it may not be something that you want to do). If you did cover up the lower belts of planking with paint then you could potentially fit a drop plank or two in order to correct that curve at the bow then sand/fill/etc below the waterline and paint it so that the planking down there is hidden. I'm aware this is much easier said than done (and you could still add drop planks to correct the curve without painting and learn from it going forward). Good luck whichever way you end up going with it.

[Dave_E]

Hey Jackson,

I’m guessing that if you tried sanding the outer layer down, you’d damage your first layer, and depending on how thin the first layer is, the attempt might be disastrous. If you’re quite certain that may happen, fill in the bow with carefully shaped planking so to get the form Allan illustrated above and then fill everything (so you basically won’t see the planking curves) and then paint it as VTHokiEE suggested. I think you could get away with that… it’s what I would do. 👍

[Jackson7]

Hey all, thanks for the advice. I'll think through it. It's always helpful to take time on these things.

[Jackson7]

Hello all, 

 

It's been several months. I've been very busy, and the prospect of what I might have to do to the Greyhound was depressing enough that I wasn't very much in the mood to start even when I had time.

 

At this point, I have slowly come to the conclusion that the only way to really fix the hull is by stripping the whole bottom portion. If I do that, I risk stripping the likely too-thin layer underneath. That's the worst possible option. But that best possible option has the most risk. 

 

After all this time off, I'm also more willing to endure the difficulty of re-doing what I've done already too. So despite my concerns, that option looks more and more attractive. 

 

I've decided on a compromise. I'll try to remove the highest plank on the bottom. If it goes wrong, I've only messed up a single place, and can work to fix it, then try to use the less perfect method.

 

If it goes right, it's potential proof of concept for doing the whole thing again. 

 

I only have to get this ship done once, so a little more time taken isn't that bad of a prospect.

 

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

  A.) Looking at the images of the work done so far, you only need to modify the planking near the bow.  Starting several inches out, draw a pencil line that show the top three planks tapering down to nothing as the line ends up where the top of the third plank from the bottom 'should' be (more or less).  Cut carefully along this line with a couple of light cuts using an X-Acto (a flexible steel ruler can be a guide - temporarily taped in place with blue painter's tape as you go).  You're only going partway down into the planks, so you can go back and pare the face of the planks with the knife held even with the surface of the planks.  This will be a controlled 'whittling' , and you don't have to go down all the way to the first planking either.

 

The lower planks can then be sanded down gradually (surface tapered, actually) until they are thin at the bow.  Glue planks with the shape you want over what's left after sanding.  Then once the glue is cured, the added material can be sanded until the added wood is 'fair' with what they were glued to.  Then you can continue planking with tapered planks up from there.

 

  B.) If that seems involved, you can glue strongly tapered planks at the very forward end to produce a triangular 'adjustment' ... a sort of 'fill-in' so you can plank normally up from there.  When the model is mounted, the area in question will be very hard to see ... in other words, few people (if any) will notice what is way 'down under'.

 

  C.)  Ships of this type were likely coppered, so if you take any one of the coppering options (a lot is on the forum about that) the planking underneath can be far from exact due to being subsequently covered.

[AJohnson]

On 4/9/2022 at 5:09 PM, Jackson7 said:

Hello all, 

 

It's been several months. I've been very busy, and the prospect of what I might have to do to the Greyhound was depressing enough that I wasn't very much in the mood to start even when I had time.

 

At this point, I have slowly come to the conclusion that the only way to really fix the hull is by stripping the whole bottom portion. If I do that, I risk stripping the likely too-thin layer underneath. That's the worst possible option. But that best possible option has the most risk. 

 

After all this time off, I'm also more willing to endure the difficulty of re-doing what I've done already too. So despite my concerns, that option looks more and more attractive. 

 

I've decided on a compromise. I'll try to remove the highest plank on the bottom. If it goes wrong, I've only messed up a single place, and can work to fix it, then try to use the less perfect method.

 

If it goes right, it's potential proof of concept for doing the whole thing again. 

 

I only have to get this ship done once, so a little more time taken isn't that bad of a prospect.

 

Hi,

 

Sorry, I've been trawling my followed threads and missed some pages back in my feed including this log.

 

Did you take the plunge and strip back your planking?  Hope you still plugging away at the old Greyhound.  It's okay to take months if not years breaks in builds - if your hearts not in it, then that is a sign to do something else until it is.  😉