Flying Fish 1860 by JimmyK - Corel - 1:50

[JimmyK]

My wife bought me this model 12 years ago and I started building a while but I lacked many tools and there are no instructions so for a beginner like me it was frustrating and the interest droped after finishing the first planking. A couple of months ago the interest started again and my first issue was to get some of the required tools which I have done and I was on my way.

I have seen on other forums that this kit is not the best and I can confirm this as well but I have nothing to compare with as this is my very first model, but I would not recommend it for a beginner like myself. Just the lack of instructions is hard and when you expect them, and following the drawings by drawing number has given me surprises from later drawings that shows some details as should have been done in a earlier stage. Maybe this depends on my own lack of experience, but as there are no instructions...

It does not get any easier when parts included do not apply to the drawings, so far two of them was so wrong that I must build new ones to fit as they should be, on other places I will have to accept the fact that some parts are not like the drawings, this maybe this is something that you must accept?
I fumble in the darkness with some things and think that "I will do it like this", not knowing if that is correct or not.
The worse thing with this kit is the fact that some parts are actually missing, so far: around 100mm anchor chain, missing some wood, missing one metal part to the capstan

All of this have made me do mistakes, not crucial (yet, guess it depends on whom is looking) so I came to the point where I decided to complete the ships as good as I can and accept the fact that there are mistakes and to do it as well as I can. I guess/hopes it will be a nice looking ship in the end after all.

 

Now I needs help with some lines that I noticed today on one drawing.
As I am working on completing the deck furniture and items I saw on the deck where both the masts are that there are three markings

On another drawing they are marked as 158,159,171 and 173.174.182.
Looking on the part list, as is all I have to follow, shows this for the no 158,159,171 and 173,174,182 = Nothing

Could this also be part 144 – Ring with leg, 144 can be seen on pic1, I suspect it is as it looks like this but I don't know.
As I have not yet placed the deck furniture it would be best to know this before I continue. I can't make out on the rigging drawings either what it is.

 

[Keith Black]

 Jim, first let me welcome you to MSW. As to your problem, I'm not build familiar with this kit but that looks correct. we have a member who has completed the kit and created a photo album, please see the below link. 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Keith Black

[Gregory]

Like Kieth says your best help will be other build logs.  Similar rigs ( schooners ) will be of help.

Rigging Period Fore-and-Aft Craft - by Lenarth Petersson should be some help..

Here is a topic by Dr PR that will be a lot of help

 

 

A lot gets lost in translation with many European ( not UK ) kits.

The 'ring with leg' is an eyebolt..

A big problem with Corel is they will create a kit based on lines from a public domain source then proceed to make everything else up..

It may include some accurate information, but it can be hard to sort out. ( My Resolution build is a good example)

With a good rigging guide as mentioned above, you can ignore the kit rigging plans..

 

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Gregory

[JimmyK]

Keith and Gregory, thank you.

Looking at JEBs work made me even more confused as I now see another ship but it should be the same, as Gregory pointed out it seems like Corel picks up some info and adds what is fun when releasing this models. I will look into the links you both gave me and use that instead as it seems the best way is to ignore Corels drawings as much as possible.

Let me show what really made me wonder.
Look at the capstan and compare it with JEBs, two different things. When I first saw the anchor chain on the drawings I wondered why an anchor chain would lie open over more then half of the deck, and when it is in use it will probably rip edges, poles and a pipe to pieces, but I must follow the drawing.
Looking at JEBs build makes the path of the chain sensible, I will place it like that instead .

 

JEBs stern also don't look like my drawings and my guess is that mine is wrong, also look at what I think is a chimney pipe on the deckhouse, who would place that directly in front of a roof window, unfortunately I have already completed that structure following the drawing so I will leave it as is.
The rounded stern I was not able to make, maybe my fault or it was not possible due the hull itself.

I also saw that JEBs have a different solution for holders to some rigg components, actually what I got in the box, looks like them on the drawing, but they not the same as the in the drawing and they are impossible to apply as they are shown here due pos 31 is not wide enough.

The material is also changed on my kit as you can see below on the hull planking and more details that differ, so this is another ship kit.

 

At least I know now that I don't need to worry so much over the drawings and will try to finish this vessel as I can by looking on others and learn about rigging
 

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by JimmyK
Spelling

[Gregory]

Looks like some nice progress in spite of lack of proper direction..

 

Every build is a learning experience..

[Keith Black]

 Jim, I like seeing you're going to push through regardless.

 

 Please take a moment to introduce and tell us a bit about yourself in the New Member Introductions section (see link) and then start a build log for the Flying Fish. In your build log you'll be able to ask questions, address build issues, and post photos. A build log is one of the best ways of getting help.

 

  https://modelshipworld.com/forum/3-new-member-introductions/

[Keith Black]

 Regarding the kit differences, it's probably due to the difference in age between JEB's kit produced in the early 80's and yours some thirty years later. Manufacturing differences would/should be expected over a thirty year span.

 

 In this plan drawing, those are chainplates. JEB's solution was to simply put brass pins in the hull, ran a line around the pin head and up to the deadeyes. Can you rework the chainplates provided with the kit? There are suppliers who provide model bits. 

 

 I agree, the stove pipe doesn't look right. Straight up capped with a top would be more accurate, IMHO. Almost everyone 'kit bashes' because kit manufactures don't always provide the best materials.  

 

[Gregory]

The galley stack that far aft seems a bit anachronistic to me, but I can't say for sure if it is wrong..

 

[Keith Black]

 Gregory, wouldn't wind blow down the stove throat with the stack pointed aft? A straight pipe with a rain cap on top makes more sense to me but I don't claim to be an expert but I do have almost twenty years experience living in houses with wood or oil stoves. Smokey downdrafts are the pits.  

[mtaylor]

I was thinking what Keith thought about the stack.  Some did swivel but you'd never, ever want one set up for the wind to blow into it.

 

Kit technology and research have improved very much.  The older kits, particularly cerain manufacturers, never bothered to put much time into research for a kit.  Just follow the advice of the build log and give it your best shot.  

[Keith Black]

21 minutes ago, mtaylor said:

Some did swivel but you'd never, ever want one set up for the wind to blow into it.

 

 Mark, because of changing wind direction I don't see that stack design as bing viable as there's no vane to rotate. Now, if the stack was mounted out the cabin wall we'd be ready to cook slab bacon and biscuits. 

[JimmyK]

23 hours ago, Keith Black said:

 Jim, I like seeing you're going to push through regardless.

 

 Please take a moment to introduce and tell us a bit about yourself in the New Member Introductions section (see link) and then start a build log for the Flying Fish. In your build log you'll be able to ask questions, address build issues, and post photos. A build log is one of the best ways of getting help.

 

  https://modelshipworld.com/forum/3-new-member-introductions/

Ok, I will do this thanks

Edited December 12, 2021 by JimmyK
error

[JimmyK]

17 hours ago, mtaylor said:

I was thinking what Keith thought about the stack.  Some did swivel but you'd never, ever want one set up for the wind to blow into it.

 

Kit technology and research have improved very much.  The older kits, particularly cerain manufacturers, never bothered to put much time into research for a kit.  Just follow the advice of the build log and give it your best shot.  

Mark, I will try to do this hoping for the best

[catopower]

Jimmy,

 

I have to say, I'm really impressed with what you've done so far. When I read that this was your first wooden ship model kit, I did not expect to see such a nice job with the woodwork.

 

I worked on this same kit a LONG time ago. Unfortunately, I don't have any photos of the model. 

 

What I do remember is that in appearance and deck arrangement, the kit follows very closely to the drawing of the ship in book The American Fishing Schooner, 1825-1935, by Howard I Chapelle (pg 95). Now, some people say Chapelle's deck arrangements can't be trusted. But, lacking other information, I see no problem basing the construction on it. And, it seems pretty much what Corel based their kit on.

 

The only flaw that I see, is that I believe that Corel mis-interpreted the plan and put in a raised forecastle. 

 

Anyway, if you can get access to a copy of this book, there's a large amount of detail information – pretty much the entire second half of the book.

 

Also, I strongly recommend the instruction book put out by BlueJacket, Inc, for their book Gloucester Clipper Fishing Schooners, which is used for their model kit "Smuggler". It should be available separately from the kit and is an excellent source for model details on this ship type, though it's for a ship from 20 years later. Still, it was by Erik A. R. Ronnberg, Jr., who has a lot of background connection on the subject. 

 

Edit: I just found it on Amazon.com for $15 here.

 

By the way, both Chapelle's drawing and Ronnberg's drawing show the charlie noble or galley stack similar to what you have now on your model. So, unless you have actual information that's better than these sources, I wouldn't change it.

 

Good luck and keep up the nice work!

Edited December 17, 2021 by catopower

[ccoyle]

Jimmy, you are experiencing the joy of discovery -- the joy of discovering all the niggling little foibles in this particular kit. Corel have a good reputation as a kit manufacturer, but it is my sincere belief that when it comes to their products, you get what you pay for. Their expensive kits get rave reviews, and their less expensive kits, like FF, often appear to be crappola grande. In the case of FF, they tossed in a lot of off-the-shelf fittings that are either period-inappropriate, out of scale, or both. You can see my version here. I took many liberties with the kit in order to make it somewhat representative of a West Coast bald-headed schooner. BTW, I ran into some of the same difficulties you have described, e.g. the round stern, which the kit instructions do not describe at all. I actually wrote a rather unflattering review of this kit on another now-defunct forum.

 

It really is not much fun to work on a kit that frustrates rather than rewards, and I would hate to see your enthusiasm for the hobby wane simply because your kit is a bad design. As I said in your other thread, don't hesitate to set this one aside if it gets too maddening. Kit design and manufacture has come a long, long way since FF was produced, and there are many excellent kits out today that are designed specifically for beginning modelers -- and they can actually be built.

 

Cheers!

[JimmyK]

12 hours ago, catopower said:

Jimmy,

 

I have to say, I'm really impressed with what you've done so far. When I read that this was your first wooden ship model kit, I did not expect to see such a nice job with the woodwork.

 

I worked on this same kit a LONG time ago. Unfortunately, I don't have any photos of the model. 

 

What I do remember is that in appearance and deck arrangement, the kit follows very closely to the drawing of the ship in book The American Fishing Schooner, 1825-1935, by Howard I Chapelle (pg 95). Now, some people say Chapelle's deck arrangements can't be trusted. But, lacking other information, I see no problem basing the construction on it. And, it seems pretty much what Corel based their kit on.

 

The only flaw that I see, is that I believe that Corel mis-interpreted the plan and put in a raised forecastle. 

 

Anyway, if you can get access to a copy of this book, there's a large amount of detail information – pretty much the entire second half of the book.

 

Also, I strongly recommend the instruction book put out by BlueJacket, Inc, for their book Gloucester Clipper Fishing Schooners, which is used for their model kit "Smuggler". It should be available separately from the kit and is an excellent source for model details on this ship type, though it's for a ship from 20 years later. Still, it was by Erik A. R. Ronnberg, Jr., who has a lot of background connection on the subject. 

 

Edit: I just found it on Amazon.com for $15 here.

 

By the way, both Chapelle's drawing and Ronnberg's drawing show the charlie noble or galley stack similar to what you have now on your model. So, unless you have actual information that's better than these sources, I wouldn't change it.

 

Good luck and keep up the nice work!

Thanks catopower
That seems to be an excellent advise with the Gloucester CFS. However I am afraid that maybe I have come to far with the build now as basically all deck items is done (not nailed in position yet), shipwheel in the stern is left and the holder to the wheel (whatever name it has, shipwheel holder maybe ) is out of scale so I must make a new one else it is done. I have some building left in the fore on the outside else it it is more or less time to place the masts that I will turn/grind down to somewhat correct measures. I am about to create a build log for my model and have questions to ask about the masts happy to receive good advise when the build log is done and you will see how far (or not) I have come.

[catopower]

Hi Jimmy, All, l

 

Let me add that Ronnberg shows that the anchor chain is not run belowdecks at all. Rather, there is a chain box on deck next to the forward companionway hatch, on the opposite side of the galley stack.

 

I was going to send a photo from the book, but I have to run out to a work appointment right now. I'll do so when I get back.

 

[JimmyK]

2 hours ago, ccoyle said:

Jimmy, you are experiencing the joy of discovery -- the joy of discovering all the niggling little foibles in this particular kit. Corel have a good reputation as a kit manufacturer, but it is my sincere belief that when it comes to their products, you get what you pay for. Their expensive kits get rave reviews, and their less expensive kits, like FF, often appear to be crappola grande. In the case of FF, they tossed in a lot of off-the-shelf fittings that are either period-inappropriate, out of scale, or both. You can see my version here. I took many liberties with the kit in order to make it somewhat representative of a West Coast bald-headed schooner. BTW, I ran into some of the same difficulties you have described, e.g. the round stern, which the kit instructions do not describe at all. I actually wrote a rather unflattering review of this kit on another now-defunct forum.

 

It really is not much fun to work on a kit that frustrates rather than rewards, and I would hate to see your enthusiasm for the hobby wane simply because your kit is a bad design. As I said in your other thread, don't hesitate to set this one aside if it gets too maddening. Kit design and manufacture has come a long, long way since FF was produced, and there are many excellent kits out today that are designed specifically for beginning modelers -- and they can actually be built.

 

Cheers!

I see what you mean ccoyle, it is just my normal bad luck as got this model, but as I said earlier I think it will be  a nice looking schooner done by a novice when it is finished. I have no intention of giving up on this build even as set backs comes here and there, the latest today when I found our that there are missing 2 brass rings to the mast. My major problem with this kit is actually what am I building. Is it really the Flying Fish? I should have had the manual that catopower told about earlier in this project
In a way it will be a good learning object for me even if not the easiest one, learning many things envolved in this hobby this is how I treats this kit now.
Thanks
Your FF version is very nice looking .

[JimmyK]

15 minutes ago, catopower said:

Hi Jimmy, All, l

 

Let me add that Ronnberg shows that the anchor chain is not run belowdecks at all. Rather, there is a chain box on deck next to the forward companionway hatch, on the opposite side of the galley stack.

 

I was going to send a photo from the book, but I have to run out to a work appointment right now. I'll do so when I get back.

 

Hi.
I saw on another ship that Keith posted here, there the Anchor chain was not running over more then half of the ship as you speak also of, I have already changed that as I belive that makes sense instead of having a chain all over the ship smashing things to pieces

[Gregory]

20 minutes ago, JimmyK said:

My major problem with this kit is actually what am I building. Is it really the Flying Fish?

There were probably any number of ships/boats named " Flying Fish .. 

It is highly unlikely that Core used the actual plans of a ship of that name..

Don't let that stop you from enjoying the experience..

[catopower]

Well, I called my client because the information she sent me precluded the need for me to come out and help her out today. Wish she had sent it to me earlier in the week, as I now have a gap in my schedule. But, what the hey...

 

So, here's that photo, if it's any use to you. Again, this is from the Gloucester Clipper Fishing Schooners book. You can also see how Corel apparently misinterpreted what is called the "fish" in the drawings as a break in the deck, which is why they gave it a raised forecastle.

 

 

The book also shows that the chainplates are most probably internal to the bulwarks planking, so you wouldn't see any metalwork, and the deadeyes are mounted directly to the rail at timber heads. Also, while not in this photo, the plans shown in the book do show the stack on the aft cabin roof directly forward of the skylight. 

 

Oh, and just to allay your fears as to what you are building. I'm pretty sure it's actually the Flying Fish. Here are the plans published by Chapelle...

 

When dealing with companies, particularly the older European manufacturers, just bear in mind that these kits are produced primarily as an enjoyable pastime, resulting in a model that represents the original ship, and looks beautiful on a shelf in your home. Scale and historical accuracy are taken into account, but only so far as their standardized components are able. There are also some liberties taken where the manufacturer's knowledge or capabilities may be lacking, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2021 by catopower

[Gregory]

1 hour ago, Gregory said:

It is highly unlikely that Core used the actual plans of a ship of that name..

Looks like I stand to be corrected.. 

[JimmyK]

That was really a big difference with the anchor details and all around it actually, thank you very much. Unfortunately I glued the small black anchor chain covers on the deck earlier today and I also made a hole in the deck where they are placed. Maybe I can still improve some of the details there
This is how it looks today, none of the deck furniture is glued on place yet. And yes it seems like it really is the Flying fish

Edited December 17, 2021 by JimmyK