A few questions about lining off / planking / planking fan

[MangoFox]

Hi all, 

 

I'm about to start first planking on my first model, the HMS lady nelson. I'm a bit stuck on a few points, I've been reading and watching a bunch of material, but everything I learn seems to add another question. 

 

So first, I know I will need 13.2 planks at midship. I measured all the other bulkheads, cut out some strips of paper to their sizes and laid them on the planking fan (pictured below) so that 13 planks fit into them, then marked them off. (ruler and plank was just to hold down the strips while I took the picture).

 

Is this how the planking fan should be used or did I miss something entirely? 

 

What is the significance of 5/32" ? 

 

 

 

After completing all these strips I noticed something was wrong with the stern measurements. I re-watched the Modellers Shipyard video.  On this final bulkhead the guy got "41mm" (without showing you where he measured between).  All the other bulkheads are measured from the base of the gun port pattern to the base of the false keel.

I measured from the base of the false keel up 41mm at  landed the lower part of the bulkhead, pictured below (so I guess this is the measurement the MSY guy got). I'm not sure why he didn't also measure the bulkhead. I'm missing something about how this area is divided/lined off. 

 

(I measured with the seamstress tape in the background, just used the callipers for the photo) 

 

How do  you account for the rest of the final bulkhead / tick it off correctly? 

 

If I'm tapering down from midship (full plank width) to the widths required at the first and final bulkheads; are the measurements/tick strips for the bulkheads in-between just a guide for when you lay your plank?  

 

 

 

Finally, I created a trick strip for the forward most bulkhead (using the planking fan as I mentioned before). 

 

To mark off the bow termination pattern, do I transfer the marks to that first bulkhead (picture below), then use the same measurements for the termination pattern? (2nd picture below)  

 

 

 

I considered dividing the hull into bands, but its a small model and I haven't got my head around the finer points of that process either. (i.e. making sure the bands are in the right spot at both the bow and the stern). Plus, as this is my first ship, I currently have no spare planks laying around. 

 

Just an FYI, I'm new to modelling, new to woodwork, and new to ship terminology, so I'm learning at lot all at once here. Please be gentle, and I may have some follow up questions. 

 

Cheers,

Mango. 

[Ryland Craze]

The 5/32" mark on the planking fan is drawn to reference where the tick marks would be for a plank that is 5/32" wide. 

 

It also looks like you will need only 11 planks on bulkhead 1 based on your last picture.  The two planks at the keel look like they will terminate at the stem (bow) before they reach bulkhead 1.

[MangoFox]

2 hours ago, Ryland Craze said:

It also looks like you will need only 11 planks on bulkhead 1 based on your last picture.  The two planks at the keel look like they will terminate at the stem (bow) before they reach bulkhead 1.

 

I get that, so that would mean if at midship I need 13 planks, then bulkhead 2 may only need 11 or 12, because the garboard plank (and possibly next plank up) will terminate before bulkhead 2? right?

[druxey]

Some of the planking terminates before reaching the stem. The garboard (strake next to the keel) ends just where the stem begins to curve. Look at the planking tutorials on this site to get the idea. Nothing wrong with your 'fan' and the way you are using it.

[MangoFox]

Just to add some context, 

 

These are the MSW videos measurements (and all within 1mm of my own measurements) 

 

 

 

 

That final measurement in red is throwing me off.

 

First, I'm not understanding why suddenly we are not measuring the bulkhead under where the red measurement stops. The rule changed without explanation. 

 

Second,  if I'm dividing 41mm by 13.2 planks (3.1mm) to form my taper at the stern, wouldn't that create too much of a taper at the second last (68mm) bulkhead, which will already need stealers. Additionally, how does it account for the area not measured on the final (red measurement) bulkhead? 

 

Still struggling to wrap my head around the end result, tried counting the planks in other peoples build logs to get more of an idea but the pics are either too poor a quality or the stealers throw a spanner in the works. 

 

I'd prefer to understand this as correctly as possible before proceeding, I don't want to have to "unglue" a bunch of planks, and risk swelling the false keel when I finally figure out the piece of the puzzle I'm missing. 

 

Cheers for the comments so far, still not getting it. 

 

Mango. 

[tlevine]

Mango, take a look at my half hull build log.  This goes through the details of planking the hull, what is called "spiling".  I think this will answer some of your questions. 

 

At the stern, you should be measuring from the keel rabbet all the way up, just as you did the others.  What you will discover is that in order to fill in the space, you will need to add a plank.  Also, the aft ends of the other planks will need to be wider than at the midship area.  

 

 

[glbarlow]

Lining the hull properly eliminates the guess work. I've built both Flirt and Lady Nelson, the hulls are different,

[druxey]

That red line measurement should run all the way along the post, up the transom bulkhead and to the 'corner' where the strip representing the topside comes; just like the other green measurements.

[bartley]

You have deadwood above the last two bulkheads.  This region should be thinned down but if this ship is double planked you might not want to plank in this region on the first planking otherwise the is region will end up two thick for the stern-post.  You can estimate the width of this region with two planks on each side and compare that with the width of the stern-post

[MangoFox]

On 8/23/2022 at 12:18 AM, tlevine said:

At the stern, you should be measuring from the keel rabbet all the way up, just as you did the others.  What you will discover is that in order to fill in the space, you will need to add a plank.  Also, the aft ends of the other planks will need to be wider than at the midship area.  

 

Hi Toni,

 

Thank you for linking the log. I've read through the whole thing, the explanations of your method are a fantastic guide. 

 

The Lady Nelson is a double planked hull. As this is the first layer I don't think a butt shift pattern is necessary and might complicate the process a bit. I like the final result of the butt shift pattern so will consider that for the second layer ....if I'm ready for a "second layer of challenge" ha!. 

 

Just in regards to the last part of your comment "the aft ends of the other planks will need to be wider than at the midship area". This is where I'm struggling most.  

 

- The planks supplied in my kit are 5mm. The midship is 66mm, therefore requires 13.2 (5mm) planks. 

- The transom counter bulkhead measurement (the red measurement from before, when measured like the other bulkheads) is 77mm. So 15.4 (5mm) planks. (thus the need for stealers).

 

Just for reference, from the midship bulkhead, back towards the transom counter bulkhead, my measurements are:

66mm, 62mm, 60mm, 68mm, 77mm. 

 

This isn't causing me an issue when considering the width of the planks from midship to bow, because every bulkhead measurement is smaller then the last, indicating that its just going to be a gradual taper from midship to bow. 

(Just a note here; if someone could tell me which measurement to divide by 13.2 (planks) to determine the taper from midship to stern, and how you came to that conclusion, that's probably all I need to get moving. Currently I'm thinking of using the 60mm measurement divided by 13.2. Logically, that would allow my 13 planks to fully cover the 2 midship bulkheads,  then next 2 bulkheads towards the stern, before the planks start to sperate out again and require stealers). 

 

Otherwise: 
Those measurements make it seem like my plank (at midship) starts at the full 5mm width, begins to taper for the next 2 bulkheads, then returns to its full 5mm width, with stealers needed at the sternpost. 

 

It leaves me with these questions: 

Should the aft end of all the planks be the full 5mm width? 

OR

Should I slightly taper the planks (using the 60mm measurement divided by my 13.2 planks so the strakes don't shrink then widen again), then add stealers when it becomes necessary?

OR

Should the planks at midship not be the full 5mm?  

 

 

 

After reading your half hull thread (which I'm going to read again). I'm thinking my best course of action is; 

 

- Lay the first 4 planks from the false deck down. From midship to transom,  use the 60mm bulkhead measurement, divided by 13.2 planks (gives me 4.5mm), so taper .5mm off each plank from midship towards the stern. 

- Lay the garboard plank (which I will leave the full 5mm except for where it terminates at the bow). 

- Lay the broad strake (also full 5mm width) 

- Re-measure the un-planked gap at mid ship, taper the planks to whatever measurement necessary towards the bow. Still only taking of .5mm from midship to stern.

-Check to make sure I'm not getting a "Smiley face" at the bow, and if I am, cut away the curvature so that the next strake has a horizontal line to follow. 

-Allow planks at the deadwood section to lay naturally, eventually filling those gaps with stealers. 

 

Sorry for the long-post. I hope this was coherent. 

 

I know there is an element of "Get in there and learn by doing". I thought planking was going to math, starting to realise its art. 

 

Very much appreciate the input from all of you. 

 

Cheers,

Mango. 

 

[MangoFox]

On 8/23/2022 at 2:06 AM, SpyGlass said:

 The second planking will benefit if you also cater for the thinning of the keel towards the stern - often done by terminating some of the lower first planking somewhat.

Some rather simplistic suggestions.

For the first planking the narrowing does not have to be perfect - you can if you wish sort of "line up" a the hull by fitting a full width strip half way up the hull.

Count the planks above that and narrow them to say 2/3 width at the stem. That should  give a close  general fitting - you can move the line strip a bit or remove entirely if you wish. .

 Garboard I find is always best fitted along the keel from the stern.  The main thing is - keep it horizontal - you will need to cut the bottom to match the curve of the keel towards the stem.

You should not need to narrow strips at the stern but you will almost certainly need stealers. You will of course need to preshape the strip and some degree of edge bending will be needed - many methods to do that.

But for first planking i favour steaming or soaking  a bit and pinning it into place and leave to settle ovenight thats without glue !!!  Anyway once you have your firts planking on you have an excellent illustration of where the second planks should lay.

 

Hi SpyGlass, 

Cheers for the advice. You mentioned in your quote above. "You should not need to narrow strips at the stern but you will almost certainly need stealers".

 

This really is the bit that I got stuck on, how much to taper from mid-ship to stern. As I've mentioned in a post above, midship to bow seems a bit more straight forward as each bulkhead gets progressively smaller towards the bow. As it widens towards the stern, you would assume no tapering needed, but the instructions / videos I've seen, one specifically for the Lady Nelson I might add, has the modeller tapering both ends of the plank.

 

Just want to make sure I'm able to achieve a consistent width between planks at the bow, midship and stern. as opposed to having a bunch of planks growing and shrinking  causing a 'wave' effect along the hull. 

 

You also mentioned "the first planking does not have to be perfect".

Totally agree, I know it will not be perfect, I'm sure wood filler is going to be doing some heavy lifting at one point or another. Just want to achieve some precision so I don't end up with a clinky warped hull that I have to unglue or fight for all of the second planking. 

 

As for "terminating some of the first planking strakes before the sternpost". 

I will more then likely have to do this. The plan so far is to just "feel this part out" - or bring them to the end of the false keel and sand them back however much is necessary. I haven't glued on the sternpost yet (because of other peoples sound advice) so sanding back shouldn't be a challenge. 

 

Cheers for the help, all the advice is greatly appreciated.  Wouldn't stand a chance at completing this without you lot. 

Cheers,

Mango. 

[tlevine]

The double-planked hull gives you the luxury of cobbing it together and using wood filler to compensate any small gaps between the planks.  Butt shifting only comes in to play for the visible planking.  I presume your two planking layers are a little different width?  If they are the same, start your first layer of planking top-down and your second layer bottom-up.  Plan on 14 planks amidships, not 13.  Remember that you will be sanding a slight bevel into the planks to get them to fit tightly around the curve of the hull.  This will be less of a factor at the stern, so you may only need one stealer, instead of two.  Overall, your comments epitomize why I have not built a double-plank-on-bulkhead model in at least fifteen years.

 

 if someone could tell me which measurement to divide by 13.2 (planks) to determine the taper from midship to stern, and how you came to that conclusion, that's probably all I need to get moving. Currently I'm thinking of using the 60mm measurement divided by 13.2.   Think of the midships as your baseline.  So use the midships measurement, 66 mm.  Again, there is no such thing as a 0.2 plank.  Unless you have access to a few wider planks, divide each bulkhead into fourteen lines of planking.  Use a tick strip (a piece of paper the length of the bulkhead) and divide it into fourteen equal sections.  Do this for every bulkhead.  When the width of the planks exceeds the width of your kit-supplied planking, it is time to insert a stealer and start dividing by fifteen.

 

The key to the prevention of the smiley-face is taking care not to run the garboard and broad strake too high up the stem.  Keep the questions coming!

 

 

[mtaylor]

Mango, Toni is right on how to mark off and plank.   I'll add the following file to help out.  It's a planking fan. Simple to use... 

 

plankingfan.pdf

[MangoFox]

On 8/26/2022 at 6:46 AM, SpyGlass said:

Just a query - what width are the planking strips on Lady - they seem to be quite wide ?

 

The first layer is 1mm x 5mm Limewood, the second is 1x4mm Walnut

 

Cheers,

Mango.

[MangoFox]

On 8/26/2022 at 5:11 AM, tlevine said:

So use the midships measurement, 66 mm.  Again, there is no such thing as a 0.2 plank.  Unless you have access to a few wider planks, divide each bulkhead into fourteen lines of planking.  Use a tick strip (a piece of paper the length of the bulkhead) and divide it into fourteen equal sections.  Do this for every bulkhead.  When the width of the planks exceeds the width of your kit-supplied planking, it is time to insert a stealer and start dividing by fifteen.

 

Thank you Toni,

 

Out of all the instructions/guides I've read and watched so far, this reply makes the most sense . I can see how this would allow me to make tick strips that will act as a good guide for where the planks need to lay, and give me a better idea where the stealers are going to land.

I had so far assumed the ".2" of a 5mm plank would only end up being 1mm over the whole hull and probably not visible without close scrutiny, but adding the extra plank makes sense.

 

Just a few additional questions;

 

- I've seen a few guides that say to leave the garboard strake full width (except for where it needs to be shaped at the bow). I've heard the same for the first plank from the deck (in my case directly below the gun-port pattern), and the broad strake.

 

Is that sound advice for reasons I don't understand yet, or is it just because they're generally bigger strakes on the real ships, and a lot of modellers are going for scale accuracy (which I'm OK to let slide for a first model)?

Either way, if no tapering should occur on those planks, does it make sense to lay those 2 or 3 planks first, then take all the measurements?

 

- I've also seen a few log's / guides (even a comment from SpyGlass above)  mention that "tapering the planks too early" caused them issues.

 

So how do you determine what point is the correct one to start the taper? 

 

Finally;

 

- Would I be correct in assuming that "Not letting the garboard / broad strake run too high" isn't in the tapering or narrowing, but in the positioning of the plank, (basically the difference between the 2 pictures below)?

 

Below: Run up too high (after being shaped at the bow)

 

Below: Closer to correct (after being shaped)

 

Cheers for the replies, you've all been extremely helpful.

Mango.

 

[druxey]

Do read (or re-read) the planking primers on this site! They explain and show you how to do this really well.

[Kevin Kenny]

You have been given a lot of great advice Mango. I have just completed a series of 10 videos that you might find useful if you have the time.  They run about 20 minutes each. I have just completed  planking a swan class ship .

 This is the first one  in the series.

best regards

 

kevin

[tlevine]

Without having the model in hand, it is difficult to be definitive but I would guess that the garboard strake should end halfway between the two fore bulkheads.  To give yourself a gluing surface will require a filler piece.  It's all a learning experience.  Remember, it's only wood.  If it doesn't turn out you can remove the planks and re-do it.

[MangoFox]

On 8/29/2022 at 8:54 AM, Kevin Kenny said:

I have just completed a series of 10 videos that you might find useful if you have the time.  They run about 20 minutes each

 

Thanks Kevin,

 

I'll give them a watch, I'm sure pick up quite a bit.

Cheers,

Mango.

[MangoFox]

19 hours ago, tlevine said:

I would guess that the garboard strake should end halfway between the two fore bulkheads.  To give yourself a gluing surface will require a filler piece.

 

Thanks Toni,

 

I'm sure for this part I can just reference some logs of the Lady Nelson + some experienced modellers. The tapering and the measurements from the MSY guide was really what had been throwing me off. Feeling more confident about it after all the useful info everyone provided in this thread. 

 

I appreciate the time you took to  read and reply.

 

Cheers,

Mango

[MangoFox]

On 8/29/2022 at 6:36 AM, SpyGlass said:

Thanks for the widths -they  just seemed very wide in the pics.

My point about narrowing  was simple that some logs shows a dip in the run on teh quarter - which I think was caused by starting to taper a bit too early But on first layer it doesnt matter. 

And if you are going to tick and line then that shoudl be handled.  About garboard  there is a tendecy when building for that strake and the lower strip generally to "rise up" at end against the stem,

Better not to let it happen !

But the reference was NOT to the position of the  overall position of the strake - just the end should not be taken too far along the keel which would start that " rise" - heres a pic of my temporarygarboard strake for Speedy as an illustration.

The garboard itself I fit hard down on the first planking - with the edge against the keel chamfered to fit flush against the keel - the chamfer angle of course changes considerably along the length

 

Thanks for the tips, the reference photo helped a lot too, I appreciate you taking the time to reply to all the question.

Feeling much more confident about the process and ready to start the next full day I get to chip away at it.

 

Cheers,

Mango.