Le Gros Ventre by Richard Dunn - 1:24 - POF - from Ancre plans

[Richard Dunn]

I have been waiting years to find the time to do a built up model that uses my trade skills a little more than my 1/35 Wahine and given the downtime I have with gluing and priming with that model I have decided to start this model now even though I still work full time. This is not going to be a fast build as I have to balance other things in my life but do want to get the frames and Axial structure done in a few months at least.
I have opted to model the framework in 3D first to check the plans and also to give a more precise fit to parts due to the scale increase.
I have approached Gerard Delcroix in regards to a couple of matters already and thank him very much for his help in regards to a few minor things I have found already.

I will start with an overview of the model as it is now and the preparation of the timber, in this case American Cherry and Anigre as well as ebony for the deadeyes and any other small parts that look good in Black timber.

My choice for scale is simple, my eyesight is not as good as it once was......that's it......
Oh and it looks wicked at that size, I like big in case anyone who has seen my other model has not noticed..:-)

I will be making use of CNC at times, much like Marsalv's build which I have been heavily inspired by along with a few other builders of the Ancre Monograph ships.
I will be cutting my futtocks individually though with CNC rather than the Harold Hahn method of cutting from a pre glued framed, I don't want to waste that much timber as it's not cheap!!
Currently at about $1200 already for wood alone.

 

Anyway Timber stock for a 1/24 model.

I asked myself how much do I need and instead of trying to work it out I though about it from a weight point of view and having the model and volume of the model parts as cubic millimeters I have allowed for 60% waste and purchased double the result so should be fine.
time will soon tell once frames are cut.

If anyone sees a mistake in the 3d model PLEASE let me know I would rather get it right before cutting parts out, of course the 3D model will be built in parallel stages and will not be complete before I start on wood.

 

These 3 planks of wide Cherry is only half, I went back and bought the same again... its very hard to picture the amount so went over.

 

this is the wood after its been dressed to a more workable stock size, and to allow more further milling into quarter sawn blanks.
I should also say I have picked some very knotty boards that will give natural crooks for stern knees and apron etc.

Cherry Left and Anigre on right for contrasting colour parts and all deck planking.

I did get a short print of a plan but waiting to hear back about a new one. 

That's reduced the planks down to something I can store so I will talk about the 3d aspect of the model soon but here are some images.

I have to say having been a professional marine modeller these plans lines are fantastically fair for 2d work and all credit goes to Gerard for a job well done and the beautiful work, the only minor issue I had was on the frame toptimber line around frames 2-8 where the outward flare of the frames seems to be hard to grasp, but if you look at the arrangements in plan view the line becomes clear.

Below the frames cut from a single fair hull surface inside and out can be seen as well as the separate futtocks

The darker brown parts forward are final and ready for labelling and printing templates.

Below is the new inner line of the forward filling frames I found were too low where they butt against frame 1 leaving a void between the top of the floors and ceiling planks, so I increased the height while fairing it into the line of the frame floor tops up to frame one and the breasthook Q where the line goes up the stem to leave a rebate for the ceiling planks.
Thanks for the advise on this Gerard.
 

Some details of the floor joints.

 

 

[ChrisLBren]

Wow this will be fun to watch - I am building this ship in 1/36th and love the larger dimensions.  At 1/24th will be incredible.  There is currently a build log on the Ancre site for a build in 1/24.  If you havent seen it - its worth checking out.  

[Richard Dunn]

Thanks Chris, I have been watching yours to, but I missed the Ancre forum, I have never seen a link to it on the site.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Richard Dunn

[Saburo]

Looking forward to seeing what you make of this build project Richard. My copy of the Ancre's Le Gros Ventre is on the way.

Bill

[Richard Dunn]

Anybody know where the Ancre build forums is?, I can't see it anywhere, wondering if it's invite only or on another site or something

Unless you mean this
model at 1/24th scale by Alain. F. BERTRAND

Edited December 1, 2022 by Richard Dunn

[Tobias]

On 12/1/2022 at 7:50 AM, Richard Dunn said:

Anybody know where the Ancre build forums is?, I can't see it anywhere, wondering if it's invite only or on another site or something

Unless you mean this
model at 1/24th scale by Alain. F. BERTRAND

 

Hello Richard, 
wonderful to see you building Le Gros especially in this impressive scale. Here is the link to the French forum. 
Good luck I stay tuned, greetings Tobias

 

https://5500.forumactif.org/

[Richard Dunn]

Thanks Tobias, at least I know that I was looking at the right one now and not missing something.

 

 

 

[marsalv]

Hi Richard,

I will be very happy to follow your construction. In the 1:24 scale, a truly impressive model will be created. Will you be building just the hull or the whole model?

[Richard Dunn]

I plan on doing pretty much what you have done in regards to what's planked and what's not and fully rig the model.
Although I will cross that bridge when it comes up,

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

On 11/30/2022 at 4:17 AM, Richard Dunn said:

Anigre on right for contrasting colour parts and all deck planking.

Wood color is a very interesting subject. For years, I used different exotic wood colors and I did like it.  The choice of the wood colors is primarily a personal choice and we must be careful not to use too much  "contrasting effects".

In the recent years, I changed that choice and I prefer to use only 1 kind of wood. For 1/24 scale I would classify cherry as a prime choice. The wood we use should be ideally similar to oak at 1/1 scale to oak at 1/24 scale. Cherry does a very good job at this level. You must be careful in the choice of the planks you will use. Cherry has few wood grain configurations. The best one is the one that runs parallel to the plank and the one to avoid is the one where the grain runs perpendicular to the plank.

[Richard Dunn]

8 hours ago, Gaetan Bordeleau said:

Wood color is a very interesting subject. For years, I used different exotic wood colors and I did like it.  The choice of the wood colors is primarily a personal choice and we must be careful not to use too much  "contrasting effects".

In the recent years, I changed that choice and I prefer to use only 1 kind of wood. For 1/24 scale I would classify cherry as a prime choice. The wood we use should be ideally similar to oak at 1/1 scale to oak at 1/24 scale. Cherry does a very good job at this level. You must be careful in the choice of the planks you will use. Cherry has few wood grain configurations. The best one is the one that runs parallel to the plank and the one to avoid is the one where the grain runs perpendicular to the plank.

I Have chosen Cherry because of it's workability having built Queen Ann  furniture from it in the past which also involves a fair bit of carving.
Also because it has a fine grain and is very close to pear in appearance.
The wood has about 8-10 % Sapwood white which is cream in colour and I am going to use this but not in frames, I don't like the checkerboard effect in frames where some futtocks are an extreme change. I will use varying shades of wood to accentuate the frames but use the sapwood for other things...if at all to be honest.
In regards to grain the whole purpose of quarter sawn is to provide dimensional stability to the timber as it only shrinks in 1 direction and does so evenly and in a predictable way,
Grain being parallel is true although it most important in wood that needs to be bent.

In guitar building when we prepare wood for bracing the top of a guitar it is so important we don't have runout we split the wood off the stock with wedges and dress from there so the grain is as perfect and straight as it can be, easy with spruce and cedars but not so easy with harder woods, also very wasteful in comparison to careful selection.
When you have to bend planks over a hot iron like when I bend guitar sides if you have any ( runout) in the grain it will start to delaminate from itself but when making guitar sides we bend 3mm thick hardwood as wide as 140mm around a 40mm radius and that's extreme, it takes a while to learn this so I have no problem with bending!.
You learn this on easier woods like mahogany and maple but hardwoods like rosewood are harder to master, imaging trying to bend fiddleback maple which is effectively lines of end grain...it takes years to master it.
I hate to think how much wood has been wasted learning this part of the craft.

Of course bending model planks this way is something anyone can do at the sizes we deal with.
Have a watch of this to understand what bending this way can accomplish and then look below at the tight curves done the exact same way.
This is Indian Rosewood in the video and is a hard oily timber, the oil heats up and rubberises the wood and then resets when cool.
I found this clip but it's not affiliated with me in any way.

 

 

 

 

Here is some fine inlay work below, each tiny square of dyed veneer in these patterns is abou.6mm x .6mm square and made into the binding around the edge and the rosette

Here you can see a tight bend in the 3mm Rosewood sides bent around a small radius, a lot of people think its laminated but proper luthiers bend them from solid.
 

Mother of Pearl and Abalone inlay into Ebony, the width of that image is roughly 50mm in real world terms  and are cut out with a jewellers fret saw.

A couple of other shots

Edited December 4, 2022 by Richard Dunn

[Richard Dunn]

I am going to finally make a start today. I will get the building board done and I also need to change the way the forward half frames 1&2  connect to the deadwood after talking to Gerard.
I want to be very clear about why I am doing this.
I am not changing the plans for the sake of it but when I modelled the frames in 3d I found that the way its drawn in the Monograph  when applied to my 3d model left a section of missing frame below where the frame heel is, some of you may have noticed this yourselves, it needs to extend down over the deadwood and terminate at the bearding line .
because this would result in a taper to nothing it would not be done like this in reality as it would rot in the same way as scarphs are not left to run out but are nibbed, the only way this could be done is to rebate the frames into the sides of the deadwood as well, much like the main frames are on every second floor.

I have spoken to Gerard about this and he is agreement that this is the most reasonable, consistent  solution and is supported by some period drawings of the time.
Models built at 1/48 and maybe even 1/36 may not even need to worry about this as the detail is so small and depending on your accuracy of the work  it may or may not be obvious...if it's even seen in the final model.
At 1/24 I feel it needs to be done as planks should never sit over voids in a frame for no reason, especially that low down in the hull, except limber holes of course.

Some people may say this has happened because I have messed up in my model somewhere, I haven't....but even if I had the factors which contribute to this are the width of the deadwood which is known, the fineness of the lines in the forefoot which would need to be really off to make a difference and the last factor is the distance of the rebate line from the outer face of the keel and stem parts, which is also known, so it is very unlikely it's an error.
The smallest athwartships distance on the wedge on the forward most frame is 2.5mm at 1/24.
The resolution is to do a joint like this, this is just a 3D doodle not the final result but one I quickly did while talking to Gerard.

The joint underneath is this but may need to be a bit deeper as I feel its still too thin on the extended portion.

 

[druxey]

Certainly the English scored the deadwood for the heels of the frames for exactly the reason you state. It would be the only reasonable solution to the problem.

[Richard Dunn]

Yeah it seems logical, even putting aside the obvious different practices of various countries at the end of the day there are only a couple of options really that present themselves to common sense.
I doubt the builders of the day said" Oh we can't do that, that's the English way of doing it" they did what was effective, easiest and worked.

Edited December 10, 2022 by Richard Dunn

[Richard Dunn]

I have a question re the joint used for deck carlings into the main beams.
Is it a tenon or a blind slot so they can be fitted from above?.
Seen here highlighted yellow.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Richard Dunn

[Richard Dunn]

A progress shot of framing in cad, just the waterways and clamps and the rest is pretty easy.

 

Edited December 16, 2022 by Richard Dunn

[Richard Dunn]

Some more shots of the structure. nearly ready to start printing patterns and cut some wood.

Due to scale i want to have very fine lines, .02mm to be precise in the patterns so the fits are really good, its the whole point I am digitising the plans into 3d.
Just the beam knees and all the dovetails and checks in deck joints to do but finally got it all to work in accordance with the plans, it took 4 goes to get the main deck as I encountered some  difference between amount of sheer in main deck in fore end from Lines to Inboard profile.

Edited December 18, 2022 by Richard Dunn

[Richard Dunn]

An example frame 12, although individual futtocks will be laid out separately

 

Frame_Test.pdf

Frame12_Futtock_patterns.pdf

Edited December 18, 2022 by Richard Dunn

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

holly molly Richard, le gros ventre in 1:24 wow. i hope you woudnt mind i follow watching from first row  . wishing luck, I plan to try first  pof after adding up in machine arsenal in workshop eyeing for ventre as second pof build starting something easier, seems like this vessel is becoming star of show on ancre offerings being very popular. it is very beautiful vessel indeed. 

cad drawings are incredible indeed. 

 

[Richard Dunn]

I am not taking any credit, that goes to Gerard for the amazing work he did.

[botra288]

Richard Dunn

very interesting, I will follow with great curiosity 🙂

[Tonphil1960]

Very nice. She’s going to be big. Looking forward to seeing it progress. Tony 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Tonphil1960

[Richard Dunn]

Not that big really, although rigged she will be I suppose.

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Richard Dunn

[Richard Dunn]

The building board made from finger jointed red oak and the nice strong bearer's.

The board is 150mm longer then hull each end so the hull is not that big really, the plate glass which is of coarse for frame assembly is 350 x 350mm x 6mm.

Also the final quantity of wood...maybe overkill but also you can see the ebony for the deadeyes and other parts.

Edited December 23, 2022 by Richard Dunn

[Richard Dunn]

A little disappointed in Ancre, I had a large part of the lines plan missing as it did not print the bow and advised them on 14/11/22 with a photo and not only have I not got a replacement but not even had a reply to the email.

[Richard Dunn]

Keen to hear what others who have done this build say but I am going to make a prediction, I expect the hardest part of fitting to be the fitting of the waterways and outer binding strakes to the dovetails in the top of the deck beams.

[Richard Dunn]

Some updates to the CAD model as of tonight, better go and have Xmas eve.

[Richard Dunn]

stern updates.

[Chuck]

Lovely!!!

[Richard Dunn]

For anyone wanting to look at it, it is still not finished but is close to being structurally done here is a 3d pdf, you just need Adobe reader and turn on layers to be able to turn parts off.
if you find any problems please let me know.

 

I recommend using shaded outline view
Its not pretty to view in this way but at least its secure.

 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2022 by Richard Dunn