Decorative trim/rail

[DaveBaxt]

Sorry if this should be under metal work as the Trim I have bought from caldercraft and is made out of brass. Below is a photograph of one of 3 different section. I intend to use this mainly on the hull. There are certain areas of the ship I am building which require this to be shaped/bent into position. My question is this.Would it be possible to shape this into an end like a scroll or does this need to be carved out of wood .See photo below. I know some modellers make theirown rail and I have thought I would see how well the brass works. However I am not sure I could carve the end of the rail/trim

Edited May 13, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[Bob Cleek]

From looking at the photo, it appears this molded brass bar stock wasn't intended for use with a scroll attached, so you'll have to do some scratch modification to use it as hull trim. 

 

I don't know how you would carve a scroll in the end of the brass section because it doesn't' look like there's enough "meat" on it to carve the scroll, which is wider and of a different section than the brass stock you have. I suppose you could silver solder a piece of brass stock of sufficient size to accommodate the scroll shape to the molded brass bar stock, and then cut the scroll shape with a jeweler's saw and then shape the relief of the scroll using jeweler's files and suitably-shaped burrs in a flex-shaft or rotary grinder. 

 

Your other option is to carve wooden scroll ends and then glue them adjacent to the squared off end of the molded brass bar stock, or, better yet, join with a lap joint. The wood would be much easier to carve, but probably tedious to fair into the milled brass bar stock. 

 

It may be that the bigger challenge if you intend to use the molded brass stock as hull trim will be attaching it to the hull. Your hull will be finished with some coating, so whatever you use to glue it to the hull is never going to hold any better than the finish coating without mechanical fasteners. I'd suggest drilling holes in the back of the molded bar (being careful not to break through to the face of it) and silver solder brass lill pins with the heads removed into the holes. Those pins would then be inserted into corresponding holes on the hull and glued in with epoxy on the brass lill pins.

 

On balance, I think it would be easier to shape a piece of fine-grained hardwood strip of sufficient size to accommodate the scrolls you want and glue wooden pieces at the ends from which to carve the scrolls. These can be secured to the hull with fine wooden or bamboo pegs set in holes in the hull in the same manner as the lill pins mentioned above. I'd strongly advise using mechanical fastenings like pegs or pins because this sort of curved trim is very prone to springing loose over time, since gluing anything under tension to a painted or varnished surface is not going to be very strongly attached. Even if you are attaching it "bare wood to bare wood," where the adhesive would hold much better, you'd have quite a challenge holding it in place while the glue dries. 

 

If you want to paint these trim pieces a contrasting color from the hull, it's much easier to paint them before installation and then attach them after the hull is painted or varnished than trying to mask and get perfect separation lines top and bottom because it's very difficult to get a perfectly masked line at the "inside right angle" point of attachment between the trim piece and the hull. Attaching the trim piece requires a perfect fit on the faying surfaces in order to avoid the trim piece appearing as if it were glued on, which would spoil the illusion of reality necessary in a good model. Trim pieces are one of those details to which a viewer's eye is particularly drawn and a neat job is required.

 

If you fabricate your own wooden trim pieces, it's well worth getting a set of Artisania Latina Micro-Shapers instead of fabricating your own at these scales. These scrapers are drawn repeatedly over a suitably sized piece of strip wood until the desired depth of cut is obtained. There are at least two different sets of three scraping plates, each of which has many different shapes cut into the edges. The shapes can be used singly, or in combinations, to yield just about any shape one could want. Each scraper has a different size range of shapes. I suggest you buy them from Artisania Latina directly, as they seem to be the least expensive source these days. (MicroMark wants twice the price for them!) Micro Shapers A for Models & Miniatures by Artesanía Latina (artesanialatina.net)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 13, 2023 by Bob Cleek

[DaveBaxt]

As ever a great reply Bob. I had a feeling wood is probably the way to go and you have added some excellent tips. The micro shapers look like an excellent tool for making your own trim. In fact the photo I added is from Beef Wellingtons Diana, where has made his own shaperes using made from safety razorblades. Something which I might try myself. However I am just looking at different ways to achieve a similar result. So I might look into the ones supplied by Artisina. It also looks like I might have to try my hand at carving the scrolls on the end. Perhaps someone might add any tips on how this is achieved as well. Thank you again Bob.Best regards Dave

[RossR]

I used these shapers for a part on my Occre Frigate Diana and the worked great.  They are designed for metric sized planks, so if you have non-metric planks you may want to order some wood also.   

[DaveBaxt]

4 hours ago, RossR said:

I used these shapers for a part on my Occre Frigate Diana and the worked great.  They are designed for metric sized planks, so if you have non-metric planks you may want to order some wood also.   

 I definately will give those shapers ago.They look great on the video. I have noticed that they are possibly being used on lime or perhaps some other type of soft wood. I have quite a bit of lime and lots of  walnut in small sizes. Do you think they would work on walnut too? Perhaps it is possible to use these for making the scrolls out of a square or round flat piece of wood. Any one tried this?

Edited May 13, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[Gregory]

Dave,  the scrolls in the image you provided are part of the hair brackets, extensions of the cheeks, which are quite different than the typical moldings running the length of the ship, which are similar to the brass pieces you show.   

 

Here is a reference from Chuck's Winchelsea which shows how they are built up from lase cut parts.

 

It might not be too difficult to make similar parts from scratch.

 

 

The rail caps may end in a scroll, but the molding pattern is still somewhat diffierent than your brass pieces.

 

I apologize if I am not understanding what you wish to accomplish.

[DaveBaxt]

Thank you Gregory for your input and your thinking is correct and that is exactly what I am trying to achieve and will be interesting to see how they are built up using a laser printer. I was hoping that someone somewhere might make them and then sell them. Hopefully someone will think it is worth their while to do this. Anyway thanks again and I will take a look.Best regards Dave

[RossR]

4 hours ago, DaveBaxt said:

Do you think they would work on walnut too? Perhaps it is possible to use these for making the scrolls out of a square or round flat piece of wood. Any one tried this?

I used it on Sapelli.  I haven't tried it on Walnut, but is think it would work well.  go slow and take just a little wood off at a time.  

[Gregory]

13 minutes ago, DaveBaxt said:

I was hoping that someone somewhere might make them and then sell them.

No kit was getting those features  ( headrails ,etc. ) right until Chuck came along..   Vanguard is making some very respectable stuff.

 

I'm hoping to get up to speed in Fusion360 and create some respectable parts on my own with CNC..  I'm spending more time on method, than I am on ship building.

Maybe I will get to a point where I can help someone out with their kits, but I'm not really interested in doing any full-time production stuff.

 

[Beef Wellington]

4 hours ago, DaveBaxt said:

Perhaps it is possible to use these for making the scrolls out of a square or round flat piece of wood. Any one tried this?

Thats exactly how I made the scrolls Dave, I tried to include the detail of how these were made in my log.  It was something that scared me off for a bit, but of course once you get going, it tends to come together after thinking things through.  I have not tried scraping profiles in the supplied walnut, but I suspect the grain may be too big.  Pear or boxwood is very close grained and ideal for this type of finish.

Edited May 13, 2023 by Beef Wellington

[allanyed]

3 hours ago, Gregory said:

Maybe I will get to a point where I can help someone out with their kits

 

Kudos!!!!!!!! 

Allan

[Bob Cleek]

Cutting a scroll end to that shape is quite easy if done with a jeweler's saw. Carving the inside scroll relief is not difficult. all it takes is removing some wood to create the relief. You'll probably screw up the first three or four attempts on the first go-round and then get the hang of it. It's not hard. Cut the lines straight down with a razor knife and then remove the wood between the cut defining lines. Also, leave a "tail" or handle on your workpiece from which it can be held when you are working on it. Then you can put it in a vise or otherwise clamp it down and still have two hands free to carve. When the carved piece is finished, cut it from the tail and glue it to the molded strip.

[CPDDET]

11 hours ago, DaveBaxt said:

 I definately will give those shapers ago.They look great on the video. I have noticed that they are possibly being used on lime or perhaps some other type of soft wood. I have quite a bit of lime and lots of  walnut in small sizes. Do you think they would work on walnut too? Perhaps it is possible to use these for making the scrolls out of a square or round flat piece of wood. Any one tried this?

I have used them on cherry wood with great results. Don't know about walnut.

[DaveBaxt]

On 5/13/2023 at 8:11 PM, Gregory said:

No kit was getting those features  ( headrails ,etc. ) right until Chuck came along..   Vanguard is making some very respectable stuff.

 

I'm hoping to get up to speed in Fusion360 and create some respectable parts on my own with CNC..  I'm spending more time on method, than I am on ship building.

Maybe I will get to a point where I can help someone out with their kits, but I'm not really interested in doing any full-time production stuff.

 

That would be amazing but it would depend upon how much ot your time you would want to take up but making perhaps something that is needed in a popular scale would be ecellent news. Any making of such items as discussed here I would happily pay for but I would imagine you have many friends on this forum and others who would say the same but understand if you decided not to. Best regards and thank you again for your input.

Edited May 15, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[DaveBaxt]

10 hours ago, Beef Wellington said:

Thats exactly how I made the scrolls Dave, I tried to include the detail of how these were made in my log.  It was something that scared me off for a bit, but of course once you get going, it tends to come together after thinking things through.  I have not tried scraping profiles in the supplied walnut, but I suspect the grain may be too big.  Pear or boxwood is very close grained and ideal for this type of finish.

Yes Jason I have been following your log with interest and have now got my safety razor blades and a dremel diamond cutting wheel to make my own shapers. It was your good self who made me think of all this in the first place. . I therefore thank you again for your help in producing such beautiful work on you Diana and sharing you work experiences with us. Keep it up as it is always very helpful.

              I had a feeling that that might be the case regards walnut having too big a grain, but fortunately I have a good stock of boxwood which I bought for making masts         Best regards Dave

[DaveBaxt]

I would like to thank everyone who has participated in this great thread and I apologise to any person who I have not acknowledged personally. Some great replies which has set me hopefully on the right path to producing something that looks reasonable to the eye. Best regards Dave

[Ed Ku20]

Hi All,

I am working on the railings and molding strips for my Rattlesnake build.  I was going to make my own by using the Dremmel on a chisel blade.  The Artesania scrappers look like an awesome tool.  I have two questions:

1. Could these be used on wood that is in fractional dimensions?  For example could you use 2 x 5 mm scrapper on a 1/16" x 3/16" piece of strip wood?  Not a perfect fit, but could it work?

2. Or, if not, does anyone supply a similar product in english fractional dimensions?

 

Thanks,

Ed

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by Ed Ku20

[CPDDET]

In my opinion, I would sacrifice a bit on exact dimensions in order to produce better detail on the workpiece. But that's just me.

I don't know of scrappers that come in decimal or fraction, only in mm. I've used these with good success after experimenting using at different angles to the workpiece. I've also learned to work pieces longer than what's needed. At one end you need material to hang on to and at the finished end I've always had to trim off a bit to get a consistent shape in the finished piece.

[allanyed]

1 hour ago, Ed Ku20 said:

I was going to make my own by using the Dremmel on a chisel blade.

Please don't ruin a chisel.  There are several different rails on most ships, often 6 our more.   A stiff back razor or a piece of an old hacksaw blade works beautifully.  Chuck a thin abrasive wheel in your Dremmel and then grind grooves in the blade to whatever shape is appropriate for any given rail. 

 

When making the rail itself, multiple shallow drags/cuts along the length of the wood to be used is easy to do MOST of the time if you use an appropriate wood.   Tight grained species rather than the open grained woods often seen on builds is the way to go.  Open grained woods will make the adventure more difficult and often times does not look as good in the end.

 

Allan

[Ed Ku20]

3 hours ago, CPDDET said:

I've used these with good success after experimenting using at different angles to the workpiece.

Hi Dave, Thanks for your input!  Did you purchase direct from Artesania or somewhere else?  Which size or sizes did you get?

 

3 hours ago, allanyed said:

Please don't ruin a chisel

Allan, I didn't mean an actual chisel!  I've seen people put grooves in a used Exacto chisel blade.  The one drawback I see to that is, you pretty much have to custom make one for different shapes & sizes of wood you are working on.  Thanks for the tips!

[CPDDET]

I believe I got a set of 3 plates from Micro Mark for about $17. 

https://www.micromark.com/Artesania-Latina-27300-Micro-Shapers-Set-A-3-Plates?gclid=CjwKCAjw04yjBhApEiwAJcvNoR63cw32-NOTLCL_VQ2n-SnBrivpcjabL7pR4VKYouNLh6bxcoJ0XxoCHccQAvD_BwE

[allanyed]

2 hours ago, Ed Ku20 said:

Allan, I didn't mean an actual chisel!

Phew!!!! Thank goodness

[DaveBaxt]

Here is a link to Beef wellingtons log of the HMS Diana page 26, where he gives links to the Dremel Diamond cutting wheel and the safety razor blades required to make your own shapers. He has had excellent results working on the trim. Hope this helps.