Ship of Theseus

[mtaylor]

Interesting article on the ship of Theseus.

 

https://www.livescience.com/human-behavior/what-is-the-ship-of-theseus-thought-experiment

[Louie da fly]

It's like Captain Cook's axe - same axe he used, but the shaft has been replaced 50 times, the head has been replaced ten times.

[dafi]

Reminds me on a certain ship in Portsmouth ...

 

... and one in Boston ...

 

... me heratic ..

 

...

 

XXXDAn

[Harvey Golden]

15 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

It's like Captain Cook's axe ...

This is interesting, the national variations on the theme. As an American, I first heard of this idea as being "George Washington's axe."  Funny how in the end that Theseus' ship was just replaced by a bunch of axes.  

[Chuck Seiler]

    Doesn't this also apply at the human (or any organism) level.  Human cells die and are replaced regularly.  While the frequency varies from organ and cell type to another they are all eventually replaced within a few years.  Quite literally, "I ain't the man I used to be", but I am still me.

[popeye2sea]

14 hours ago, dafi said:

Reminds me on a certain ship in Portsmouth ...

 

... and one in Boston ...

 

... me heratic ..

 

...

 

XXXDAn

USS Constitution still has about 12% of her original wood.  Doesn't fit the conundrum.

 

Regards,

Henry

[davyboy]

When Constitution reaches the same age as Victory I doubt if she will still have 12% of her original Timber Henry. Just saying 

 

Dave 

[popeye2sea]

Ah, but Constitution is only 30 years younger than Victory.  Her original wood will be there for many years to come.

 

Regards,

Henry

Edited May 29, 2023 by popeye2sea

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

On 5/28/2023 at 3:37 PM, Chuck Seiler said:

    Doesn't this also apply at the human (or any organism) level.  Human cells die and are replaced regularly.  While the frequency varies from organ and cell type to another they are all eventually replaced within a few years.  Quite literally, "I ain't the man I used to be", but I am still me.

  A medical expert informed me that brain neurons are not replaced, so as they die off, so do "you" - your intellect, that is.

[Chuck Seiler]

3 hours ago, Snug Harbor Johnny said:

A medical expert informed me that brain neurons are not replaced, so as they die off, so do "you" - your intellect, that is.

Although, since we only use a portion of our brain, I would like to think those spare neurons step up and replace the dead ones.  That's my story and I'm sticking to it.  Unfortunately, at my age, the brain cell boot camp isn't cranking out the new recruits like it used to.

[Jaager]

Two of the reasons for preserving an obsolete ship:   

sentimentality - a cultural symbol -  purposes that both Constitution and Victory serve quite well

true historical exhibit - as direct evidence and data for what the ship actually was in the instant of time it purports to represent. 

 

If the Ship of Theseus - had been repaired by using the same source material (species of tree, etc.), with the identical shape, and attached using the method that is identical to the original - even if none of the actual molecules are those of the ship as launched - it would be just as valid as if it had been teleported.  The information would be identical and equally valid.

Both Victory and Constitution are failures by this standard.   Constitution underwent "improvement" and "modernization" probably about every 20 years while on active serve  and after it was saved from the breakers, been manipulated and adjusted to the preconceptions of whatever committee was in charge when repairs of the effects of time, oxygen, microbes, electromagnetic radiation, was required.   Victory has seen its share of the same.   Both are chimeric rather than being a frozen instant of time.

 

Would that we had now, and in the past,  a more elaborate and minutia obsessed version of HAAMS  for every vessel of some importance. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

11 hours ago, Chuck Seiler said:

Although, since we only use a portion of our brain, I would like to think those spare neurons step up and replace the dead ones.  That's my story and I'm sticking to it.  Unfortunately, at my age, the brain cell boot camp isn't cranking out the new recruits like it used to.

  Here's something for retirement ...

 

[popeye2sea]

11 hours ago, Jaager said:

Two of the reasons for preserving an obsolete ship:   

sentimentality - a cultural symbol -  purposes that both Constitution and Victory serve quite well

true historical exhibit - as direct evidence and data for what the ship actually was in the instant of time it purports to represent. 

 

If the Ship of Theseus - had been repaired by using the same source material (species of tree, etc.), with the identical shape, and attached using the method that is identical to the original - even if none of the actual molecules are those of the ship as launched - it would be just as valid as if it had been teleported.  The information would be identical and equally valid.

Both Victory and Constitution are failures by this standard.   Constitution underwent "improvement" and "modernization" probably about every 20 years while on active serve  and after it was saved from the breakers, been manipulated and adjusted to the preconceptions of whatever committee was in charge when repairs of the effects of time, oxygen, microbes, electromagnetic radiation, was required.   Victory has seen its share of the same.   Both are chimeric rather than being a frozen instant of time.

 

Would that we had now, and in the past,  a more elaborate and minutia obsessed version of HAAMS  for every vessel of some importance. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I disagree with this argument.  Ships, any ships, and especially naval vessels, undergo frequent and constant modifications throughout their useful lives.  How many times have you researched a build only to find that you had to choose what variant to build?  Who is to say that the ship with modifications made is any less than the original vessel.  Would you say that about yourself after a surgery? Are you not the same person?

 

As I mentioned further above in this thread, Constitution is a living, continually changing vessel. Still an active US Navy ship. Still with the 12 to 13 percent of her original structure intact. 226 years old, she requires constant maintenance. That is what happens during the major dry dockings that happen at about twenty year intervals.   During her early years "improvement and modernization" was nearly constant with captains making changes to rig and armament as they saw fit. The "committee" (US Navy History and Heritage Command) has been collecting and archiving materials since 1800.  They are still using plans for Constitution from the 1790's to perform maintenance and repair on the vessel. Constitution is not, and never has been, a snapshot in time exhibit.  You will find on board structures from her construction in 1795, masting and rigging modifications from the late 18th and early 19th centuries, armaments from the early 1800's, hull modifications from the early 1800's, equipment that was added in the 1920's, modern fire fighting systems, and modern materials used in maintenance.  She is an amalgam of her 226 year history who's function is to promote the Navy's history and heritage.

 

Also, she was never at risk of being broken up.  That is a myth arising from the famous poem by Oliver Wendell Holmes.  The Navy at that time was debating how much money to spend, what her role would be, and what the scope of her repairs should take. From the war of 1812 on, the Navy realized what a national treasure she was.

 

Regards,

Henry

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

  Its interesting that many mistakenly think Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. wrote 'Old Ironsides'.  Holmes Jr. was a Civil War officer who shouted something like, "Get down, you fool" to President Abraham Lincoln at Fort Stevens (outside Washington D.C.) in 1864, when Confederates under Gen. Jubal Early were skirmishing at perhaps the weak point in the city's defense ring - having failed to break in the previous day before Grant's reinforcements arrived.

  Lincoln was the only sitting president to come under direct enemy fire during wartime.  Holmes went on to a notable Supreme Court Career (associate judge), including a number of 'landmark' decisions with lasting effect.

[Roger Pellett]

I know a little about the “preserved ship biz” here in the USA having worked for 10+ years as a volunteer to prepare National Historic Landmark Status (NHL) documentation for the Whaleback Steamship Meteor.  In the end I was unsuccessful as a new executive director arrived on the scene (previous experience running the local zoo!) and didn’t bother to submit the material on to the necessary people.

 

NHL status is the gold standard for US Government recognition of things historic.  It is, therefore, the door thru which any federal financial support much pass.  The program is administered by the National Park Service who publish complex guidelines for the program.  A couple of salient points:  First, the project should (must?) have a connection to an important historic thread, and of course the authors of the guidelines did not include the history of technology as being one of these!  Second, and more relevant to USS Constitution, applicants are required to determine a “period of significance” to which the object will be restored.  Things that cannot be restored to this state usually do not qualify for NHL status.

 

As Henry points out, USS Constitution is a commissioned US Navy warship.  Because of this the NHL program does not apply to her.  She gets her funding as a line item in the Defense Department’s annual budget.  She is Public Relations asset for the US Navy and a large majority of the people who see her probably  have no interest in understanding her historic accuracy or lack thereof.

 

In my opinion this should not prevent the Navy from developing a plan to determine a period of significance to which the ship should be restored.  This would include replacement of Mid Nineteenth Century and later features in favor of those associated with her service in the War of 1812 or the Barbary Wars.  This would include replacement of her head, some bulwarks, and stern decorations.  Note, the presence of original structure or lack thereof is not a major NHL criteria.

 

It would seem that the Royal Navy Museum is doing better with HMS Victory as they seem to be making a real effort to return her to appearance when she fought at Trafalgar. 
 

Roger

[popeye2sea]

8 hours ago, Snug Harbor Johnny said:

  Its interesting that many mistakenly think Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. wrote 'Old Ironsides'.  Holmes Jr. was a Civil War officer who shouted something like, "Get down, you fool" to President Abraham Lincoln at Fort Stevens (outside Washington D.C.) in 1864, when Confederates under Gen. Jubal Early were skirmishing at perhaps the weak point in the city's defense ring - having failed to break in the previous day before Grant's reinforcements arrived.

  Lincoln was the only sitting president to come under direct enemy fire during wartime.  Holmes went on to a notable Supreme Court Career (associate judge), including a number of 'landmark' decisions with lasting effect.

It was actually Oliver Wendell Holmes, SR. that wrote the poem.

 

Henry

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

9 hours ago, popeye2sea said:

It was actually Oliver Wendell Holmes, SR. that wrote the poem.

 

Henry

  Exactly my point, but sometimes I may not communicate as clearly as desired.  I should have included Jr's Dad's name as well, instead of simply 'mistakenly'.  Holmes Sr was a noted poet, with a large body of work.  As with many artists, he's mainly remembered for a single work.