(inexpensive) Lathe recommendations

[palmerit]

I'm approaching the mast and spar stage and I am thinking about buying a mini-lathe. I've seen some jerry-rigged options using a drill, a workbench, a vise, and homemade jigs, but while I own a couple of drills, I'd need to buy a workbench and a vise and make jigs, so buying a mini-lathe seems the best option. I also know these can be shaped entirely by hand tools. I've been to Colonial Williamsburg and saw how a harpsichord can also be built using nothing but hand tools. But that's not for me. I don't have a lot of time to spend on this new hobby and retirement is at least a decade away.

 

Which Model?

 

The Proxxon DB 250 seems to be the popular inexpensive option. From what I've read, it has a "pass through" capability to be able to handle long dowels, which many other cheap (or cheaper) options do not. Is that right?

Taig is also recommended (assuming it is available in the US). Does that also have "pass through"? There seem to be some versions priced around the same as the Proxxon, with others priced closer to the Sherline. Is there a similarly-priced Taig that does all the same as the Proxxon that I should look at. I'm a bit overwhelmed at the number of Taig models. Would someone recommend a Taig over a Proxxon?

 

Sherline is also recommended, but is way more than I would want to spend. Right now, I can't imagine doing metal work, and I'll be focusing just on shaping masts and spars. If I get further into this hobby, I'll consider something fancier.

 

Are there other (relatively inexpensive) mini-lathe models someone recommends? 

 

Which Add-ons and Tools?

 

What "add ons" would I need to buy (or would be recommended)? e.g., Are there accessories to add to the Proxxon (made by Proxxon) that are necessary or very useful that don't come with the base kit, or are there combo kits that someone recommends? 

 

Are there specific tools someone recommends? Is it better to use files or chisels to shape masts and spars? I have some inexpensive files. Perhaps for a lathe I should buy some better ones? And if chisels, any recommendations?

 

Apologies for creating yet another topic on lathes and the basic questions. I used a lathe once 45 years ago in wood shop class in junior high, but haven't since. I have read a bunch of useful posts here on lathes. I've seen specific mention of the DB 250 as a specific Proxxon model. While I've seen some posts about the Taig (and other models) I haven't been able to figure out which specific model folks recommend. And I've seen folks note that they needed to buy some "add ons" and tools but it's been harder to figure out what those add ons and tools were. 

[Dziadeczek]

I am sure you'll get tons of advice and opinions, but before you decide, you will have to answer yourself a question, what kind of a lathe you need?

A metal lathe (for turning both wood and soft metals) or a wood lathe (for wood only)?

I have a Sherline lathe for more than 20 years now. Still works fine.

Edited October 4 by Dziadeczek

[Landlubber Mike]

I started with the DB 250 and loved it.  It help immensely with making the masts and spars for my Badger build quickly and accurately.  There is a pass through hole for longer work.  I think for most wooden modeling objectives, it's a really good lathe.  I had also bought the two chucks for it.

 

I did end up selling it a few years ago to upgrade to a long-bed Sherline for more functionality - I got into small wooden turning projects, and the Sherline can turn metal.  I also liked the digital readout functionality to help with accuracy.  There are many accessories Sherline offers that make it a one-stop machine for small work across different types of projects.

 

That being said, a Sherline is significantly more expensive than the DB 250.  If you ever are thinking about getting a mill, Sherline does have a conversion option that allows you to buy one machine and use it for both milling and lathe operations instead of buying two separate machines.

[palmerit]

Right now I'm really just thinking wood. I understand something like the Proxxon DB 250 is wood only. Who know what I might want to do in the future.

 

If something isn't much more expensive (and better quality) I'd get that. Something up to $500-600 US would be okay, thought I'd prefer to pay less. No way I'm spending upwards of $1000 or more, which is that I've seen some of them go for.

 

I'd certain love some recommendations on particular models. I'm really at a loss as to what specific models to look at and what a basic "start set" might look like. For now for just doing masts and spars. If it lets me do more later that'd be cool.  

 

My son took a wood turning class in high school (their principal was a wood turner and the class had four students because he donated his old one) and it looked like a lot of fun. I don't even know if a lathe for wood turning more generally would be general purpose for also doing the kinds of things you might do for model ships, turning masts and spars. As I said, I'm clueless right now. I'm certainly open to getting something that might allow me to explore other directions.

 

I'm not in a rush to buy something today certainly. I'm just trying to figure out the landscape of possibilities and I'm overwhelmed by the options, especially having no clue what really to look for and how to tell whether a particular lathe might do what I want immediately (for model ships) and what it might allow for later. I saw some combo packs for some of the lathes online and I have no idea what combo of add-ons is even needed. 

[palmerit]

2 minutes ago, Landlubber Mike said:

I started with the DB 250 and loved it.  It help immensely with making the masts and spars for my Badger build quickly and accurately.  There is a pass through hole for longer work.  I think for most wooden modeling objectives, it's a really good lathe.  I had also bought the two chucks for it.

...

That being said, a Sherline is significantly more expensive than the DB 250.  If you ever are thinking about getting a mill, Sherline does have a conversion option that allows you to buy one machine and use it for both milling and lathe operations instead of buying two separate machines.

So what would be an entry-level Sherline model that would do everything a DB 250 would do, just so I can compare? It sounds like a Sherline is more upgradeable than a Proxxon? Guessing the same might be true for Taig?

 

How do I know what basic add-ons are needed to get started? I saw that some of the models had packages, but I don't even know what combo would be necessary to get started. Sorry for all the questions.

 

(I don't even know what a mill is used for, except that I had some guys I went to high school with whose dads were machinists, and I assume they used mills.)

[Landlubber Mike]

1 hour ago, palmerit said:

So what would be an entry-level Sherline model that would do everything a DB 250 would do, just so I can compare? It sounds like a Sherline is more upgradeable than a Proxxon? Guessing the same might be true for Taig?

 

How do I know what basic add-ons are needed to get started? I saw that some of the models had packages, but I don't even know what combo would be necessary to get started. Sorry for all the questions.

 

(I don't even know what a mill is used for, except that I had some guys I went to high school with whose dads were machinists, and I assume they used mills.)

 

With any lathe, you need something to hold the piece at the headstock (3 or 4 jaw chucks, lathe dog, center, etc.), something to hold the piece at the tailstock (center, etc.), and for wood, you need a tool rest (for turning metal, there is a tool post that holds the cutting implement which you move via the hand wheels, as opposed to turning wood where you manually hold a tool on the tool rest - though, you could turn wood on a tool post too).  It gets complicated to spell out exactly what all the various options are, but that's the basics for a lathe.

 

You could get an 8" Sherline lathe with their package A for under $1000.  I don't think you need to initially go to their package B or C, as you can always add accessories later.  Personally, I'd opt for a lathe with a 17" bed (I originally bought a used 8" lathe but sold it to upgrade to a 17" with the digital readout).  The DRO is very helpful if you can swing it.

 

Here is the milling column that converts the lathe to milling operations:

 

https://www.sherline.com/product/30503053-vertical-milling-column/#description

 

You can use a mill as a drill press as well as for milling operations which allow you to remove material laterally against the milling bit - drill bits aren't designed for that and will break.  I haven't used the mill much, and probably could have gotten away with just using the milling column for where I am with my modeling hobby now.

 

 

 

The whole lathe/mill thing is very overwhelming in the beginning, and to be honest, I didn't exactly understand their uses (minus the very basics) until I started using them and then realized what accessories I needed.  It wasn't until I took a detour and started wood turning projects like pen turning that I really understood the potential for what a lathe could do.  Of course, that meant I ended up buying accessories and upgrading to the 17" bed with DRO.  

 

You could always start with a DB 250 and then upgrade to a Sherline later if you feel the need.  I bought the DB 250 new, and sold it for almost as much as I paid for it.  It's a very good machine (at least when I bought it, don't know if there are quality issues these days), and if you're just looking to do masts and spars for most size kits, you'll be fine.  You can always upgrade in the future to a Sherline or other lathe if you want more functionality - turn metal, longer/wider pieces, accuracy to do some pretty cool stuff with the various accessories you can buy like a DRO, etc.  Sherlines are built like tanks and can be simple enough to replace parts.  Not inexpensive, but they will last a lifetime.

 

Sorry for the long post.  I was in your shoes years ago and felt confused an overwhelmed with all the options out there.  Hope this helps a bit.

Edited October 4 by Landlubber Mike

[palmerit]

So would these be the two Sherlines you're talking about:

https://www.sherline.com/product/40004100-lathe-packages-a/#description (8")

https://www.sherline.com/product/4400a4410a-package/#description (17")

 

So the "pass through" capability is pretty standard for all lathes?

 

How large (wide) of a piece could something like one of these handle? As I said, my son did some woodturning (small bowls and vases) and I don't know if these can handle something that wide (vs. masts, spars, pens, and other narrow pieces). Or if that requires a large lathe. Just thinking if this could be used for the kinds of things my son enjoyed doing it would have wider use - and justify paying more.

[Dziadeczek]

1 hour ago, palmerit said:

So what would be an entry-level Sherline model that would do everything a DB 250 would do, just so I can compare? It sounds like a Sherline is more upgradeable than a Proxxon? Guessing the same might be true for Taig?

 

How do I know what basic add-ons are needed to get started? I saw that some of the models had packages, but I don't even know what combo would be necessary to get started. Sorry for all the questions.

 

(I don't even know what a mill is used for, except that I had some guys I went to high school with whose dads were machinists, and I assume they used mills.)

 

If you are a very beginner, I think it would be a good idea to get a couple of books on the subject and familiarize yourself with some jargon and possibilities of these processes:

- The Home Machinist Handbook, by Dough Briney, and

- Tabletop Machining, by Joe Martin

(especially the first one is v. helpful, both come with some simple projects to hone your skills).

 

They primarily deal with Sherline machines, but the principles apply to other types as well.

Plus, as always, there is the internet, with various forums, You Tube, etc...

Various individual accessories you should acquire only, as they are needed for your projects, don't buy expensive packages ahead of time!

Last time (a couple of years ago) I visited Sherline factory, I noticed that they were massively converting into digital machinery - very expensive, so don't get involved with these upgrades, unless you intend to extensively manufacture complicated parts, fittings... for sale, for instance...

Also, if you only intend to shape masts and spars for your model, buying a lathe and/or mill just for it, is an overkill. Simply adapt for this task a handheld drill and shape them cheaply and quickly. Purchasing an expensive machine is a long-time investment, for years to come...

Also, you have to remember, that the central hole in a spinning shaft (pass through hole) in case of a Sherline lathe, is 10.2 mm (0.4 in) diameter.

Edited October 4 by Dziadeczek

[dvm27]

What scale will you be working at? What is the largest spar or mast you plan to turn? While turning spars and masts on a lathe are possible it is not quite as simple as you might think. You need to consider the maximum swing over bed. My Sherline has 16" so I can turn larger spars and masts. But, even with a hole in the headstock, the maximum diameter wood that can pass through is 0.040". If you are turning long spars or masts you will encounter deflection so a steady rest would be highly recommended. No matter which lathe you purchase there is a learning curve and it will take some time before you turn out (literally) passable spars. 

 

It is actually very easy (and satisfying) to make a mast with just a chisel or miniature plane (the Veritas mini-plane is fantastic). Depending on the period you are working in, masts and spars were not always round over their entire length. Many had octagonal centers and tapered ends. You may wish to look at Volume 4 of The Fully Framed Model, by David Antscherl, for a complete description of how to hand make masts and spars. It's actually easy and much less expensive than purchasing a lathe.

[Pirate adam]

I have been fortunate enough to have been able to build a nice collection of model building tools over the years. I have a Sherline lathe and love it. With that as context, I am in agreement with Greg that a lathe is not only not required for making masts and spars, it really isn’t that great a tool for it.
 

The reason I say that is most masts and spars have lots of sections that aren’t round. It is usually easier to start with a piece of wood with a square section, then cut or file that into an octagon. Once you have an octagon it is usually quite easy to create the round sections with plain old sandpaper. I have found that to be tons easier than using the lathe.  Making spars on a lathe is actually weirdly difficult. There are lots of examples of making masts that way on this site. 
 

If you are looking to buy a lathe that would be good for both ship model and woodworking projects, I would recommend looking at some of the mini and midi lathes sold by Woodcraft, Rockler, or others. 
 

Just my 2 cents worth. Opinions vary.

 

Adam

[Landlubber Mike]

4 hours ago, palmerit said:

So would these be the two Sherlines you're talking about:

https://www.sherline.com/product/40004100-lathe-packages-a/#description (8")

https://www.sherline.com/product/4400a4410a-package/#description (17")

 

So the "pass through" capability is pretty standard for all lathes?

 

How large (wide) of a piece could something like one of these handle? As I said, my son did some woodturning (small bowls and vases) and I don't know if these can handle something that wide (vs. masts, spars, pens, and other narrow pieces). Or if that requires a large lathe. Just thinking if this could be used for the kinds of things my son enjoyed doing it would have wider use - and justify paying more.

 

Those two are what I could consider, as the A packages have a lot of the basic accessories you would need.  Personally, I'd go with the longer bed as you then can handle longer stock and won't be as concerned with the pass through capacity of the lathe - though, the longer and thinner the stock, the more you would need a steady rest as Greg noted.  I'd also consider the DRO package - it's a very nice upgrade to have.  Buying it after will not only cost you more, but you might also have to change out some of the hand wheels which not only adds to the cost, but also the hassle factor as you need to put in work to swap everything out.  I'd prefer to just have them all installed at the factory from the beginning.  Same with wanting to upgrade from an 8" bed to a 17" bed - I think when I looked into it, it was just worth selling my 8" used lathe and buying a new 17" lathe rather than buy a replacement 17" bed.

 

Just as an FYI, for the width of pieces that you could turn, you can only turn pieces up to 3.5" diameter with the standard head and tail stocks.  Sherline sells riser blocks for the headstock and tailstock that increase the diameter to 6" - though they warn that the motor strength is the same, so you shouldn't try to turn bigger projects that will require a stronger motor.  I ended up getting the riser blocks as I needed a little more clearance for my non-ship modeling turning projects.  For typical wood turning projects, people will usually recommend a larger wood lathe over gearing out a Sherline to make it work.  I didn't want (or have room for) a wood lathe alongside the Sherline so I just sucked it up and spent the money to configure the Sherline to handle my wood turning projects.  

 

In the end, do you need a lathe for masts and spars?  You don't, but then again, you really don't need any power tools to build a wooden ship model, especially if from a kit.  Better modelers than me will say it's better to do masts and spars by hand, but personally, i found it very quick and easy to create the masts and spars for my Badger using the DB 250 versus doing them by hand.  Sure you have to do some work by hand like the octagonal sections, but otherwise, it was only a couple hours of work getting properly tapered masts and spars.  Maybe I was just lucky as I didn't find the process awkward at all - it anything, it was very simple and easy.  

 

Personally, I like monkeying around with power tools, and many times, I find they make certain model processes much easier, quicker, and more accurate.  It's like anything else in this hobby or other hobbies - just figure out what your budget is and what you want to achieve.  

 

DB 250.  Like I said before, the DB 250 is a very nice machine should you decide to get a lathe.  I think unlike many other Proxxon products, you don't need to buy a separate transformer for it - you probably would want to consider getting one or both of their chucks though.  They sell a 3-jaw chuck which is nice being all metal, and a 4-jaw chuck that I believe unfortunately is plastic.  For doing masts and spars or small wood turning projects, I think it's hard to beat this lathe.

 

Sherline.  If you think you might want a mini lathe that will give you a lot more functionality down the road besides turning masts and spars, consider the Sherline.  The cost, especially with accessories, will run you a lot more than the DB 250, but you'll have a tool that will last forever and can be upgraded with dozens of different accessories.  And like I said, you can always start with the DB 250 and upgrade later if the mood arises.

Edited October 5 by Landlubber Mike

[Landlubber Mike]

A couple of links I found on turning masts and spars on a mini lathe:

 

Turning on a DB 250:  

 

 

 

Turning on a Sherline:

 

 

[palmerit]

Thanks for all these helpful comments. Lots to think about. I was thinking it was easier to make them on a lathe, which made the decision easy. I'll need to poke around to check out the different approaches to decide what works for me.

 

I guess now the question is if someone doesn't go a lathe route, what combination of other tools would be useful? A vise? What kinds of chisels? A Veritas mini-plane. Other tools?

[Dr PR]

A lathe us a useful tool to have around, but I don't think it is the best way to make masts. A lot of experienced modelers have said the same thing. The main problem is that it is tricky to set up a lathe to create a tapered (conical) piece, and some lathes do not have all the features to do this. And masts aren't conical - the taper varies to create something like a long truncated ovoid.

 

I have made masts and spars starting with round dowels and chucking them into an ordinary hand drill (a locking trigger is very useful for this). Then I used files and sandpaper to grind the dowel down to the desired dimensions.

 

However, I like the simple method of using a small plane and files to taper the mast. Starting with a square dowel you shave off the corners to 8 sides and then again to 16 sided. Then you can round it in a drill or using files and sandpaper. This is a lot easier than it sounds! Here are some examples.

 

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/19611-albatros-by-dr-pr-mantua-scale-148-revenue-cutter-kitbash-about-1815/?do=findComment&comment=908539

 

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/19611-albatros-by-dr-pr-mantua-scale-148-revenue-cutter-kitbash-about-1815/?do=findComment&comment=904995

 

[mtaylor]

Here's a link with a lot of excellent info on lathes and also mills.  I have one of MicroMark lathes and it's adequate for what I use it for.   

 

https://www.mini-lathe.com/

[wefalck]

There are a couple of old-time wisdom for wanting-to-be machinists:

 

- Think about the maximum size (length/diameter) of piece you want to make and then buy a lathe with twice the capacity - you will most certainly underestimate the space you need for mounting etc.

 

- Tooling and accessories you will need/want will double the price of the basic lathe.

 

The good news is that you don't need everything immediately. You can buy tooling and accessories, when the need arises.

 

You can turn wood and plastics on a metal lathe, but turning metal on a wood lathe is difficult to impossible (depending on what you try to do, of course). I would go for a metal lathe.

 

Look for a lathe that can be equipped with collets and not only three- or four-jaw-chucks - much safer to operate, when working on small parts.