HMS Lion by Ian_Grant - 1/150 - RADIO - RESTORATION - WW1 Battlecruiser

[Kevin-the-lubber]

24 minutes ago, Keith Black said:

Those of us without 3D printers and the ability to use them may as well be living in the stone age, Glen. But i look at it this way, I can't burn the house down with my flint knives.

I don't think either of you need feel too envious - having seen the work you each do, I'd swap my printers (well, some of them anyway) for your abilities any day. 3D is brilliant, but probably not quite as fulfilling as doing it all by hand.

[Ian_Grant]

To me it's a tool, no more and no less, similar to the laser cutter which cuts accurate openings without me having to use an xacto knife.

 

The teenaged me sliced up some dowel and drilled holes for the guns; this time around the print can include the viewing ports for the gunners which would have been difficult by hand. Besides, I enjoy the challenge of drawing with TinkerCAD's limited number of shape "primitives".

 

 

[Keith Black]

5 hours ago, Ian_Grant said:

To me it's a tool, no more and no less

ian, I agree 100% with you. I don't disparage 3D printers, in fact I use 3D printed pieces parts sourced from suppliers. That's no different than if I was printing them myself. i admire folks like yourself who can master the printing process. 

[Veszett Roka]

I think this dispute is as old as the 3D printing in modeling industry. I agree with Ian too - this is just a tool. It is helping you to get the same, or even better result. Someone building the pieces from Evergreen slices or rods, someone fabricating them from excess pieces of plastic. The only important thing is the final result on the ship.

If we're talking about artistic sculptor talent and patience thats another topic i guess. Personally i find an accurate 3D model as attractive (artistic) as a sculpted one. Just different working hours invested into it.

[Kevin-the-lubber]

I agree, the machines are tools, same as lasers and CNC routers & mills, and so on. But 3D production can easily become the principal method, as is the case with my stuff. I guess it's down to the individual to decide how far they want to go, but my own experience is that it sucks you in. Not that I regret that, I willingly jumped in with both feet and would do the same again.

 

While writing I just wanted to add something - when I first got into 3D I assumed it would be a huge time saver, that I'd be able to knock parts together in a jiffy that would take hours or days by hand. There's a grain of truth in this, you do get far faster as your CAD and printing skills develop, but my experience has been that it often takes considerably longer than making by hand if you're designing the thing from the ground up. 

[Keith Black]

2 hours ago, Veszett Roka said:

I think this dispute

 Veszett, what dispute? No one is disputing Ian's use of 3D printing. As I said, "I don't disparage 3D printers, in fact I use 3D printed pieces parts sourced from suppliers. That's no different than if I was printing them myself. i admire folks like yourself who can master the printing process."

[Veszett Roka]

2 hours ago, Keith Black said:

 Veszett, what dispute? No one is disputing Ian's use of 3D printing.

Not us Keith, but the dispute in general, whether the modeler could use a 3D printer, or he/she must use his/her own skills and tools to model the subject. The PRO-3D folks (including you, Ian and me) says it is just another tool. The CON-3D guys says that 3D printing is just programming and anybody could produce a fine model just behind a monitor whilst he/she could be totally untalented, don't need to understand the ship in general. They thinks 3D printing is not a work.

[Keith Black]

35 minutes ago, Veszett Roka said:

Not us Keith, but the dispute in general,

Ahh.....3D printing is the future of modeling and those that think otherwise have their heads buried in the sand. Just as I'm sure some modelers a hundred years ago thought power tools were the devil's own. 

Edited January 22 by Keith Black

[Ian_Grant]

44 minutes ago, Keith Black said:

Ahh.....3D printing is the future of modeling and those that think otherwise have their heads buried in the sand. Just as I'm sure some modelers a hundred years ago thought power tools were the devil's own. 

Just as my dad's generation of toolmakers thought CNC machines were the devil's own.

[Dr PR]

Having done a bit of 3D modelling myself (USS Oklahoma City CLG-5 and modeling parts for other builds) and scratch making things by hand in wood and metal, I say both techniques are equally good for ship modelling. I put in 14 years of research on the CLG CAD model, and I am starting on my seventh year researching my 1:48 topsail schooner model.

 

However, I have doubts about the suitability of the resins used for 3D printing. I have 3D printed some tiny but very detailed parts for my future 1:96 scale model of the CLG - much better detail than I could do by hand in any material. But how long will these resin parts last? 3D printing is relatively new, especially for the home printers. Will the resin deteriorate with time? Only time will tell.

 

I am reminded of the problems that came up when pot metal parts came into fashion more than a century ago. Some of those metal parts corroded and are just dust today. And a very early (1940s) plastic body for a kitchen mixer began to crumble in only a few years.

 

So if your model is just a throw-away, or something that your heirs will have to dispose of, the 3D printed parts are OK. But I have doubts about anything you want to last beyond your lifetime.

[Ian_Grant]

You

8 hours ago, Dr PR said:

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However, I have doubts about the suitability of the resins used for 3D printing. I have 3D printed some tiny but very detailed parts for my future 1:96 scale model of the CLG - much better detail than I could do by hand in any material. But how long will these resin parts last? 3D printing is relatively new, especially for the home printers. Will the resin deteriorate with time? Only time will tell.

So if your model is just a throw-away, or something that your heirs will have to dispose of, the 3D printed parts are OK. But I have doubts about anything you want to last beyond your lifetime.

Dr PR you're right. This is a worry for me especially in an outdoor model which will be exposed to UV. Are you more worried about resin than PETG filament? PETG plastic bottles take a very long time to break down. From what I've read paint will protect the plastic from UV. I'd like to print in ABS which is very durable as demonstrated by all the relatively ancient plastic model kits still around, but it emits toxic gas when printed and we have a parrot in the house; they are sensitive to air pollution as are we all.

 

I'd like to think my ships will be around long after I'm gone, but my kids will have the final say.

 

My daughter says she will keep my Heller Victory in my memory...........🥲

[Kevin-the-lubber]

Most of the stuff I've printed in filament has been for outdoors and unpainted: all of it is still doing fine 4 or 5 years on, having had constant exposure to sun, wind, rain, snow, bird poo, squirrel warfare etc. Originally I used PLA, tried ABS as I wanted the flexibility, but couldn't get it to stick so switched to PETG which is fine for just about everything I make. I am starting to see PLA products being sold in shops now and recently read an article on a factory that runs something like 2000 FDM's churning out kids toys, so personally I don't have any real concerns about the longevity of filament prints. In fact I'd be happy to hear that it does start to crumble after 20 or 30 years as my one reservation about 3D is that I'm adding to the plastics mountain. Not by very much, but it all adds up, doesn't it.

 

Resin is a different kettle of fish. While here again I've got some extremely finely detailed prints that have sat unpainted on my windowsill for 3 or 4 years without any apparent decay, for end product I would always paint them as this acts as a UV barrier (or so I read). That even extends to tiny blocks, where a holy grail seems to be to make them so they look good enough without paint (perfectly do-able, but a different discussion). I'll still paint. I'm not sure anyone knows, or if they do, is willing to say, how long resin objects will remain as good as new. My view is that anything I print in resin is going to end up on a model of some sort, which if it's worth keeping, will probably be kept in a case, out of the sun, and get very, very little post-assembly exposure to UV. While this is not at all scientific, I'd be surprised if it didn't last decades. It would be nice to leave a legacy, but nicer still if that had a relatively short lifespan, for the same reasons as above.