My newest Challenge

[James Flynn]

Hello all.    I am new to this forum and kind of new to ship building I have built many different speed boats, and my latest build was a 5'' long Skipjack sailing shrimping boat. Now I'm wonting to dive headlong into a big 4'' long war ship scratch build I'm wanting to build the 1812 120-gun Montebello first rate triple decker war ship. However, I am struggling with the plans I have downloaded from French 120-gun Ship-of-the-Line Montebello – The Model Shipwright but there written in French and I can't read them, and being my first time working with line plans I'm having a bit of trouble understanding the front and the back of the ship I can see how the ribs cut out for the most part from the image on the left top front and back views but why are there two sets of front and back one with high walls and one without and how do I get the front rounded into what looks like a D shape when looking at the top view?  

 

Edited October 16 by James Flynn
description

[James Flynn]

you can see a full set of the plans I'm using here French 120-gun Ship-of-the-Line Montebello – The Model Shipwright

 

[Gregory]

Can you show a marked up drawing indicating where you want a " D " shape?

Edited October 14 by Gregory

[KLarsen]

The profile views on the left part of the plans only show one side because both sides have the same curve. The left part of the drawing is from midships aft, the right side from midships forward. The curved lines correspond to the vertical lines on the side view of the ship. You'll have to identify them one by one to see which corresponds to which if they are not identified.
Regarding the "D" shape I suppose you're referring to the bow? By taking the lines as I explained above you should automatically get the bow shape, though you might have to extrapolate to get the intermediate frames not shown.

 

Are you building the ships as plank-on-frame (POF) or plank-on-bulkhead (POB)? POF is quite difficult and requires you to do "lofting", getting the curve of all the frames using all the lines on the plans.

[Keith Black]

11 hours ago, James Flynn said:

I'm having a bit of trouble understanding the front and the back of the ship I can see how the ribs cut out for the most part from the image on the left top front and back views but why are there two sets of front and back one with high walls and one without and how do I get the front rounded into what looks like a D shape when looking at the top view?  

 James, first, welcome to MSW, secondly, curb your desire to jump in knee deep and start building. You need to do a ton of research on how to build a model ship before tackling building a ship of the line. Use the resources of MSW and go through build log after build log from start to finish.  Within a couple of build logs you'll understand what that D shape is at the bow and see how different builders tackle the making. The knowledge can not be spoon fed, YOU have to want to learn and the easiest way to learn is looking over the shoulders of the many fine modelers here at MSW. Use the MSW search engine to find those build logs that pertain to 19th century French warships. 

[barkeater]

The right side is the bow, and the left is the stern in the first image top left. The figure directly below is a puzzle to me as it is different. Maybe somebody else knows. Also, the lines are not the ribs but rather depict the contour of the ship. Ribs are more numerous however if you are going to do a plank on bulkhead and not a plank on frame, you can use the lines for your bulkheads. 

Richard 

This was already answered as I was formulating an answer. Did not intend to repeat.

Edited October 14 by barkeater

[Jim Lad]

Hello James, and a warm welcome to the forum.

 

You might find it advantageous to have a browse through the 'Articles' database (link at the top of the home page) to find information on reading a ship's plan. As Keith said, learn about the process before you start to build - you'll find life much easier; and more satisfying.

 

John

[mgdawson]

Hi James

The diagrams on the left are called the body plan, as mentioned above the left side of the body plan show the contours of the hull from midships to the stern and the right side shows midships to the bow. If you look carefully at the left side the midships curves on the 2 body plans are slightly different, the lower one has 11 curves drawn and the upper only has 10 and if you overlaid them you may find other differences.

 

Perhaps try putting the text between the 2 body plans into google translate it may give you a clue as to what's going on.

 

As Jim mentioned check out the article on reading ship lines plans, if you don't already, you really have to have your head around those concepts.

 

Mark

 

[KLarsen]

10 hours ago, mgdawson said:

Perhaps try putting the text between the 2 body plans into google translate it may give you a clue as to what's going on.

It says:
"Horizontal and vertical sections equidistant from the hull, outside [including] the planking".

By "hull", I suppose it means the centerline.

[wefalck]

The drawings posted here and on the linked Web-site come from the 'Atlas du Genie Maritime' that was collated from the middle of the 19th century on until about the 1880s, so contains information and plans from different periods. There is also special volume on rigging details that is a fantastic source (see archjofo's building log for LA CREOLE). The exact contents of this Atlas varies depending on the different copies preserved. It was meant as a sample book and teaching resource for naval engineering students. Unfortunately, there never seems to have been a textbook with explanations for the numerous plates.

 

Not sure what scale you want to build in. At the beginning you wrote the model would be 4" long, which is probably wrong. Otherwise it would be a veritable miniature. If you envisage such miniature, have a look at the building log in 1/700 scale here: http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=382477.

 

The two body-plans are, indeed, puzzling. As the lower one seems to show one more frame station I would venture the guess that it may refer to a possible lengthening of the ship, when in 1851 she was converted into an auxiliary steamer. However, Wikipedia on her is quite spartanic and I did not have time to dive deeper into her history. Lengething old warships to make space for machinery was a common procedure at the time.

 

Concerning the language challenges: if one dives into a project from another country, one should be prepared to learn at least the basic terminology in that other language. Today it is easy to find on-line all sorts of specialised and period dictionaries due to the libraries digitising their holdings. Take modern bilingual on-line dictionaries with a pinch of salt - they do not always get it right ... Here are some useful dictionaries that also can be found on-line:

 

PAASCH, H. (1885/1901): From Keel to Truck.- 206 + CIV p., New York/Antwerp. ... that's a classic for English, French, Dutch, and German, later also in addition for Spanisch and Italian.

 

BONNEFOUX, P.-M.-J. DE (1834 and later editions): Dictionnaire abrége de marine. Contenant la traduction des termes les plus usuels, en anglais et en espagnol.- 338 p., Paris/Havre (J.A. Dezauche/C.-B. Matenas).

BONNEFOUX, P.-M.-J. DE (1848?): Dictionnaire de Marine à Voiles et à Vapeur. Marine à Vapeur.- 771 p., X pl., Paris (Arthus Bertrand, Éditeur).

 

 

[James Flynn]

On 10/14/2024 at 1:39 PM, Keith Black said:

 James, first, welcome to MSW, secondly, curb your desire to jump in knee deep and start building. You need to do a ton of research on how to build a model ship before tackling building a ship of the line. Use the resources of MSW and go through build log after build log from start to finish.  Within a couple of build logs you'll understand what that D shape is at the bow and see how different builders tackle the making. The knowledge can not be spoon fed, YOU have to want to learn and the easiest way to learn is looking over the shoulders of the many fine modelers here at MSW. Use the MSW search engine to find those build logs that pertain to 19th century French warships. 

I thank you for your response and I completely agree with your suggestions and from the beginning planed on doing just that I don't plan on starting this build until I feel I have a decent grasp on what I need to do. This is just the beginning of my research

 

20 hours ago, wefalck said:

The drawings posted here and on the linked Web-site come from the 'Atlas du Genie Maritime' that was collated from the middle of the 19th century on until about the 1880s, so contains information and plans from different periods. There is also special volume on rigging details that is a fantastic source (see archjofo's building log for LA CREOLE). The exact contents of this Atlas varies depending on the different copies preserved. It was meant as a sample book and teaching resource for naval engineering students. Unfortunately, there never seems to have been a textbook with explanations for the numerous plates.

 

Not sure what scale you want to build in. At the beginning you wrote the model would be 4" long, which is probably wrong. Otherwise it would be a veritable miniature. If you envisage such miniature, have a look at the building log in 1/700 scale here: http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=382477.

 

The two body-plans are, indeed, puzzling. As the lower one seems to show one more frame station I would venture the guess that it may refer to a possible lengthening of the ship, when in 1851 she was converted into an auxiliary steamer. However, Wikipedia on her is quite spartanic and I did not have time to dive deeper into her history. Lengething old warships to make space for machinery was a common procedure at the time.

 

Concerning the language challenges: if one dives into a project from another country, one should be prepared to learn at least the basic terminology in that other language. Today it is easy to find on-line all sorts of specialised and period dictionaries due to the libraries digitising their holdings. Take modern bilingual on-line dictionaries with a pinch of salt - they do not always get it right ... Here are some useful dictionaries that also can be found on-line:

 

PAASCH, H. (1885/1901): From Keel to Truck.- 206 + CIV p., New York/Antwerp. ... that's a classic for English, French, Dutch, and German, later also in addition for Spanisch and Italian.

 

BONNEFOUX, P.-M.-J. DE (1834 and later editions): Dictionnaire abrége de marine. Contenant la traduction des termes les plus usuels, en anglais et en espagnol.- 338 p., Paris/Havre (J.A. Dezauche/C.-B. Matenas).

BONNEFOUX, P.-M.-J. DE (1848?): Dictionnaire de Marine à Voiles et à Vapeur. Marine à Vapeur.- 771 p., X pl., Paris (Arthus Bertrand, Éditeur).

 

 

I appreciate the time you took in responding to my post and I plan on doing everything I can to try to read this before I start, all though its written so small it's hard to figure out some of the lettering, but I am working on it. The plans I got online have no scale per say so I simply printed them off and took them to a print shop and had them blown up until the hull was 4ft. long from some of the research I have done I was thinking it to be some were around 1 to 80 scale what I was shooing for any way. Wanting to build a model around 4-5 foot long and about 4-5ft. tall and then try and make some of it remote controlled.       

[James Flynn]

On 10/15/2024 at 4:50 AM, KLarsen said:

It says:
"Horizontal and vertical sections equidistant from the hull, outside [including] the planking".

By "hull", I suppose it means the centerline.

Thank you for translating that it helped allot 

[James Flynn]

On 10/14/2024 at 1:29 PM, KLarsen said:

The profile views on the left part of the plans only show one side because both sides have the same curve. The left part of the drawing is from midships aft, the right side from midships forward. The curved lines correspond to the vertical lines on the side view of the ship. You'll have to identify them one by one to see which corresponds to which if they are not identified.
Regarding the "D" shape I suppose you're referring to the bow? By taking the lines as I explained above you should automatically get the bow shape, though you might have to extrapolate to get the intermediate frames not shown.

 

Are you building the ships as plank-on-frame (POF) or plank-on-bulkhead (POB)? POF is quite difficult and requires you to do "lofting", getting the curve of all the frames using all the lines on the plans.

I'm hoping to do a (POF) it's my plan to build it as authentic as I possibly can and then fix it so I can open it up for viewing and make some of it remote controlled. I understand I have a lot of research ahead of me this is just my beginning. Thank you for your post   

[wefalck]

8 minutes ago, James Flynn said:

I thank you for your response and I completely agree with your suggestions and from the beginning planed on doing just that I don't plan on starting this build until I feel I have a decent grasp on what I need to do. This is just the beginning of my research

 

I appreciate the time you took in responding to my post and I plan on doing everything I can to try to read this before I start, all though its written so small it's hard to figure out some of the lettering, but I am working on it. The plans I got online have no scale per say so I simply printed them off and took them to a print shop and had them blown up until the hull was 4ft. long from some of the research I have done I was thinking it to be some were around 1 to 80 scale what I was shooing for any way. Wanting to build a model around 4-5 foot long and about 4-5ft. tall and then try and make some of it remote controlled.       

There are data for the dimensions as well as a scale in metres for the small sail-plan. From this you can work out the scale for a hull of 4 ft. length. It seems that the hull was around 67 m long (= 220 ft., I didn't check where exactly this was measured), which means that at 4 ft. length we are talking of a scale of something like 1/55. 

[James Flynn]

11 minutes ago, wefalck said:

There are data for the dimensions as well as a scale in metres for the small sail-plan. From this you can work out the scale for a hull of 4 ft. length. It seems that the hull was around 67 m long (= 220 ft., I didn't check where exactly this was measured), which means that at 4 ft. length we are talking of a scale of something like 1/55. 

Oh, that's cool thank you for that that helps a lot   

[wefalck]

Keep in mind that this is only the hull, the whole ship will be something like 50% longer, taking into consideration the bowsprit etc.

 

However, I think you put a tall order onto your plate, something that will keep you busy for the next ten years ...

 

[KLarsen]

5 hours ago, James Flynn said:

I'm hoping to do a (POF) it's my plan to build it as authentic as I possibly can and then fix it so I can open it up for viewing and make some of it remote controlled. I understand I have a lot of research ahead of me this is just my beginning. Thank you for your post   

I would strongly encourage you not to make a POF build, it's a HUGE undertaking (I'm not exaggerating). It requires you to have a good understanding of how the real ship was built. Take a look at the many build logs here to get an idea of what's involved.

[GrandpaPhil]

The bottom body plan is to the outside of the planking below the waterline.

 

The top body plan is to the outside of the frames.

 

My plans for the Solferino are from the same source.

 

Looking forward to seeing a build of Montebello!

Edited October 16 by GrandpaPhil

[James Flynn]

6 hours ago, wefalck said:

Keep in mind that this is only the hull, the whole ship will be something like 50% longer, taking into consideration the bowsprit etc.

 

However, I think you put a tall order onto your plate, something that will keep you busy for the next ten years ...

 

I'm definitely hoping for a substantial challenge, but I challenge myself like this all the time I don't foresee to much difficulty once I get all the information I need again I thank you for your help   

[James Flynn]

1 hour ago, KLarsen said:

I would strongly encourage you not to make a POF build, it's a HUGE undertaking (I'm not exaggerating). It requires you to have a good understanding of how the real ship was built. Take a look at the many build logs here to get an idea of what's involved.

would you by chance know of a POF I could take a look at in regard to your quote?

 

[James Flynn]

2 hours ago, KLarsen said:

I would strongly encourage you not to make a POF build, it's a HUGE undertaking (I'm not exaggerating). It requires you to have a good understanding of how the real ship was built. Take a look at the many build logs here to get an idea of what's involved.

would you by chance know of a POF I could take a look at in regard to your quote?

 

[James Flynn]

I wish I could find better pictures of this ship or one as close to it as posable 

 

[wefalck]

Another thing to consider: for a true POF contruction, you would have to loft dozen of intermediate frames, as they were spaced very closely on these ships, only a few inches apart ... a major investment in time and in material.

[James Flynn]

Ok maybe my idea of POF is a little confused any chance you could explain it to me in a little more detail. My idea is keeping it framed inside and out so I could fill the interior with everything seen on the plans so as to keep things as authentic as posable, but you guy's attempt in steering me away from the attempt is becoming a little concerning   

[G. Delacroix]

Hello,

 

The ship is drawn according to its state in 1854.
Some explanations on the plan.
Building this "monster" is a gigantic task that will require a lot of knowledge that apparently you do not have. Quite a challenge!

 

Look here: 118 canons

 

 

GD

Edited October 16 by G. Delacroix

[JacquesCousteau]

43 minutes ago, James Flynn said:

would you by chance know of a POF I could take a look at in regard to your quote?

 

There are a lot of options you can look at in the Build Logs-Scratch Build category (https://modelshipworld.com/forum/151-build-logs-for-scratch-projects-by-era-launch-date/). KLarsen himself has a completed POF build of a small fishing boat, the Santa Caterina, which shows just how complex even a relatively simple vessel can be. He's also working on a POF build of just the stern of a frigate, La Mahonesa, which really shows the complexity of a sailing warship, while still being a smaller, simpler vessel than a ship of the line. (If you search for the ship names, you should be able to find the build logs pretty easily). For another example, again of a simpler vessel than your plan, see: 

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/19253-le-gros-ventre-by-marsalv-finished-148-pof/

It's also worth noting that all of these builds are based on monographs that include detailed diagrams of all the frames and other parts of the hull. Making a POF model from just the plans you've shown would require, as others have noted, would require a lot of working out frame shapes and the shape and dimensions of a lot of parts that don't appear on the plans, which would require a lot of research into the nuts and bolts of Napoleonic-era shipbuilding. It's up to you what you want to do, but it's worth noting that what you're proposing is a truly massive undertaking.

[wefalck]

If really wanted to reproduce a fully-framed model, you would need to make all those frames as shown above the keel in the blow-up below:

All the vertical lines above the keel indicate frames. You would have to draw each of them, paste the drawing on suitable pieces of wood and then cut them out using a scroll-saw. Frames are also made of several pieces to ensure a good run of the wood-grain. So you would have to know from how many pieces the frames are made up of and reconstruct this pattern. This kind of construction usually goes by the term 'dockyard model' (though real dockyard models often used a simplified scheme of frames). If you search for this term here on the forum you will find several models constructed this way.

In fact the Atlas du Genie Maritime gives all the construction details, but not necessarily for a particular ship.

All this requires a lot of research, planning and drawing (i.e. real lofting, copying plans is not enough). Perhaps a worthwhile project, but one has to know that one will be spending probably a couple of years of spare time just for the preparations, before cutting any wood.

I don't want to discourage you from such an ambitious project, but I have the feeling that you should build up some more basic knowledge of shipbuilding techniques pertaining to such large ships in the middle of the 19th century.

Perhaps an idea would be to split the project in two, building a POB model of such a ship and another model of a considerably smaller ship that shows such interior arrangements ...

Edited October 16 by wefalck

[KLarsen]

Another option would be to build a cross section of the ship to get a taste of what it involves. This way you could detail all of the interior without it being covered by the frames and decks.

[wefalck]

Would make a change to the usual kit-built cross-sections of HMS VICTORY 😁

Edited October 16 by wefalck

[KLarsen]

@James Flynn does it have to be that exact ship of would you consider building another similar one? Ancre has several top quality monographs (fully detailed plans and descriptions of construction) of similar French ships of the line. You could consider buying one of those so you don't need to do any lofting and a lot less research.