Venetian Carrack or Cocha by woodrat - FINISHED - 1/64

[Louie da fly]

This build never fails to bring up the interesting and unexpected. I knew there'd be an offset bowsprit, but the narrowness of the forecastle and the gaps in the planking are a fascinating surprise.

 

Steven

[woodrat]

 

Yes, Steven,  the narrowness worried me. Anything wider in this very large ship may have been unwieldy or even unstable, hence the tumblehome. The drawing seems to show a tumblehome here. Dick

 

The forestay ropes are seen well in the Tavola Strozzi, are presumably lashed  together in  their mid portion and separated at either end

Edited December 26, 2017 by woodrat

[felelo]

This is bueatiful work! Congratulations, I do believe you are in fact coming really close to what this ships looked like, this model is turning to be one of the most well made representations of the period I've ever seen!

[woodrat]

Thank you Felelo, most kind. But there are still a few things I wish I could go back and redo. Second-guessing long dead shipwrights is an interesting process. The rigging promises to be a real challenge,

Dick

[JesseLee]

Just found this. Looking very good,I love it!

[Louie da fly]

I thought this link http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/9295-medieval-top/ from the Nautical History and Research section might be useful when it comes to rigging the carrack.. 

 

Steven

[woodrat]

Thanks JesseLee and Steven. I have now completed the clinker planking under the forecastle and a beast of a job it was. I am moderately happy with the result. I used as a guide the excellent miniature from the Benincasa map (1482) which represents a very close approximation to the Trombetta nave:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 15, 2015 by woodrat

[captainbob]

It may have been "a beast of a job", but your hard work really paid off.  Well done she's looking fine.

 

Bob

[Louie da fly]

A very difficult operation, but the end result looks very good.

[tarbrush]

it really does look like it was difficult, congrats on pulling it off, it looks amazing!

[woodrat]

Thank you Cap'n BoB, John and steven. These pics show the clinker planking of the "great arch". These are the planks that the sailors would run along to gain access to the forecastle deck and the foremast. There seems to be not much protection to the sailors. Perhaps a 'lifeline' was rigged in rough weather to prevent losses overside!

Dick

 

 

 

Edited February 18, 2015 by woodrat

[cog]

Lovely, and probably difficult buid. She looks great!

[JesseLee]

Its good to see something a little different. I love this build!

[woodrat]

Thanks JesseLee and Cog. These pics show the forecastle nearing completion.

 

 

 

 

Dick

[NenadM]

Ir seems pretty tricky, but you swim throught very well

[Louie da fly]

Very nice. Really starting to get that typical carrack "look".

 

One thing that interests me, and that in the beginning I had trouble accepting, is that this carrack has such fine lines. Most modern models and representations I have seen of carracks are very tubby compared with yours, but I believe you have the right of it.

 

I think artists of the time had great difficulty portraying the bows correctly and often showed them much more rounded than they really were - not because that's how the ship was, but that they just couldn't work out how to portray the shape of a ship's bow seen from in front. The better artists like Carpaccio managed it, but others - the Beauchamp Pageant artist, for example, and even Master WA - just couldn't get it right.

 

It makes sense to me that a carrack would be designed to swim as well as possible, and I believe archaeological finds back this up. The underwater lines of the Iberian "Newport" ship unearthed in Wales even seem to have been concave at the bow.

 

Keep up the good work. She's looking brilliant.

 

Steven

Edited February 26, 2015 by Louie da fly

[woodrat]

Thanks Nenad M and Steven.

Steven, I have given a lot of thought to this and I am sure that there was a large range of hull forms in use throughout the Mediterranean, not to mention northern Europe during the fifteenth century. I am sure the regional differences were large. As you say, iconographic information is of limited reliability with some exceptions, such as Carpaccio, and we need archaeological hard evidence. However, that said, I should point out that my reconstruction is of a particular ship and should not be regarded as a generic carrack. The Trombetta illustration, to my eye, indicated a finer entry into the water than many other illustrations show:

 

One of the reasons for this may be the shape of the master frame which I developed based on almost contemporary evidence:

 

This is in complete contrast to the U-shaped frames favoured by some of the northern european reconstructors of carracks e.g. this "replica" of the Nao Victoria which looks remarkably tubby:

 

and this carrack from Lubeck:

 

Using the technique of ribbands based on master frame and tail frames which I used to simulate the method of the mediterranean shipwrights of the time:

 

I came up inevitably with somewhat finer lines.

I do not claim my reconstruction is anything more than an amateurs essay at a somewhat hazy subject and I insist that all errors are mine and I treasure them. I agree that some iconography suggests that at least some venetian navi were finer in their lines and I attach a few examples:

 

Note the variation in the hull shapes

 

 

 

Another carrack from the Trombetta manuscript

 

 

Whether experts agree or not, in the end I like the shape of my hull and probably that is all that counts as it has to sit on my mantelpiece Dick

Edited February 28, 2015 by woodrat

[Tadeusz43]

Hi,

Being impressed by the scope of the study and craftsmanship ffotek include a few of my archive.

Lisa von Lubeck in Gdańsk.

 

Tadeusz

[woodrat]

Thank you Tadeusz. I saw her when I visited Lubeck some years ago. Your pictures show well the U-shaped cross section.

Dick

[Louie da fly]

Woodrat, I agree with your analysis - I'm sure there were not only national variations but individual variations between shipbuilders to have a broad range of features and shapes in the same basic ship type. Though the following links relate to Iberian and English ships, you might find them of interest -

 

Hull design and construction, and differences between English and Iberian framing practices - http://journals.hil.unb.ca/index.php/MCR/article/view/17791/22170

 

Portuguese vs Spanish Shipbuilding Practices: https://www.abc.se/~m10354/bld/portspan.htm

 

Hull characteristics of 16^th century Spanish and Portuguese ships: http://www.patrimoniocultural.pt/media/uploads/trabalhosdearqueologia/18/19.pdf

 

There's also the (possibly Basque) Cavalaire wreck of 1479:

 

The Mediaeval Shipwreck at Cavalaire:  http://www.culture.gouv.fr/fr/archeosm/archeosom/en/caval-s.htm

 

Oak growing, Hull design and Framing Style: The Cavalaire-sur-Mer Wreck c.1479 https://www.academia.edu/6921643/Oak_growing_hull_design_and_framing_style._The_Cavalaire-sur-Mer_wreck_c._1479

 

Archaeological Report (in French) on the Cavalaire Wreck: http://medieval-europe-paris-2007.univ-paris1.fr/M.Delhaye%20(ss%20ill.).pdf . - my French isn't good enough to translate it in full, but I've had Google translate this and now I'm working on turning it into proper English.

 

 

and the Genoese Lomellina of 1516:

 

http://www.culture.gouv.fr/fr/archeosm/archeosom/en/lomel-s.htm

 

http://archeonavale.org/lomellina/an/l_6a.html

 

I was fortunate enough to go aboard the 'Matthew' replica in Bristol when I was in the UK in 2009. Unfortunately my camera's memory card filled up just before I saw her (we were actually there to see Brunel's Great Britain), so I don't have any photos of my own, but there are some good ones at http://bidefordbuzz.org.uk/2012/03/matthew-calls-at-bideford-6th-march-2/ and the photo at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Matthew-BristolHarbour-Aug2004.jpg shows the lines of her bow, which may not be as fine as those of your own carrack, but are considerably less tubby than some of the contemporary pictures.

 

Steven

Edited February 28, 2015 by Louie da fly

[GLakie]

Amazing job on a very interesting build.   Very nice! Hope you don't mind my following along. 

 

Cheers

[woodrat]

Hope you don't mind my following along. 

 

 

How could I mind, George. welcome aboard.

 

Steven, lovely pictures of the Matthew, a beautiful reconstruction (not a replica!) but what in heaven's name is that eighteenth century topsail doing above the mainyard! :Oh well, needs must! Not much tumblehome either. Interesting.

 

Note the chafing gear on the mainstay which is secured to the stem-knee through the forecastle deck.

 

The cavalaire-sur-mer wreck

Note the resemblance of this masterframe to my Trombetta masterframe (details below)

 

Dick

 

Edited March 6, 2015 by woodrat

[woodrat]

The forecastle complete

 

 

 

[woodrat]

I have added the external support frames or futtock riders. These were used to add rigidity to these relatively lightly built hulls and were a characteristic feature of these vessels. They were, however, very variable in their application, size, position and number. This vessel has these supports along its full length.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Looks like a carrack now, I think.

Dick

Edited April 29, 2015 by woodrat

[cog]

Looks like a ship with breaks!!! Those external support frames didn't help much to increase speed ... Though, it makes the build look very smart.

Well done Dick!!

[GLakie]

Those external ribs definitely gives her some style Dick! Very nice!

 

Cheers

[Louie da fly]

Somehow I managed to miss this post when you put it up.

 

SUCH a beautiful ship . . . (sigh).

Edited April 14, 2015 by Louie da fly

[woodrat]

Somehow I managed to miss this post when you put it up.

 

SUCH a beautiful ship . . . (sigh).

Thanks Steven.

When are you going to start your dromon?

Dick

[Louie da fly]

I wish I knew. Even if I could justify taking the time off from renovating to make a start (which I can't), it's impossible because we currently live in a building site - even the rooms which have been finished are filled with stuff (disassembled cupboards, boxes of floor tiles, ceiling lights etc, homeless furniture) to go into the incomplete rooms when they're finished. There's nowhere to make a model ship even if I could spare the time right now. 

 

Fortunately, after over two years, we are finally approaching the end - plasterboard's up and due to have the joins gooped up in the next week, then painting, fitting architraves etc, second fix on plumbing and electricals etc etc etc. But it's going to be months yet . . .

 

On the positive side, I've nearly completed drawing the plans for the dromon. I was thinking maybe I should start a build log, even if I can't do any building yet.

 

Steven

[woodrat]

On the positive side, I've nearly completed drawing the plans for the dromon. I was thinking maybe I should start a build log, even if I can't do any building yet.

 

Steven

I think you should, Steven, if only for the sake of your sanity. The research and planning of the dromon would be of interest to many at MSW.

Dick