Harvey 1812 by Floyd Kershner - Artesania Latina - 1:48 - 1812 Baltimore Clipper

[Nirvana]

Floyd, I wish there was someway for us to help you with the pets, but our clan just expanded with another dog.

Don't know if my son mentioned about him.

One of the pet rescues called up (they know how successful we are with our homemade food, and long lifespan on the dogs),

they needed a foster family for an overweight Beagle. I said no, Admiral yes, I lost  even with the argument we have four dogs, two goats she can't be with (allergies)(her idea as well) and a kitty. When he arrived he weighed 85lb, within a week down to 77. Don't know his current weight. But he is great fun and a great snuggler.

Hmm, I think I never seen a mobil workshop. There is a company making aluminium trailers (have one of their smaller one) so checked their website, they have a perfect fitting trailer to put a workshop on. All you need afterwards is a space for the trailer.

[Blackie]

Hi Floyd

As I said earlier, I started the Harvey years ago and I am still building it. I remember that the bulwarks came in the kit as pre-shaped plywood and I do not remember any problems in getting them to curve and sit into the correct alignment. Perhaps that was OK in the old kit. Anyway, I have abandoned the deck layout like you and my drawing of my version plus some photos of my build to date is in my log (Harvey by Blackie). I would appreciate any comments that you can give before or after your move. As I am doing my own version of the baltimore clipper I have decided on a date of 1820 - not sure why but I have. I went with the "cupboard" type binnacle after seeing it in a few books as being of that time. I also have placed the pump towards the stern which is where my references show it to have been and I have made my own here also.

I am also making my own cannon carriages as the kit ones are way too big and I have scratch-made a jolly boat as the kit version is made from large frames and looks way out of scale.  

My kit gunwale rails also came as walnut. From experience with my Mercury I did not even try and use it but bought some beech planks - very bendy and a snap to shape and fit.

 

In my kit the first layer of planking was limewood. It that what you call basswood? My second layer of planking is walnut tapered from stem to stern with a few stealers at bow and stern and it took me an age - I'm glad that it is completed. 

[fnkershner]

Well Gents I guess it is no surprise that the last time anything was posted to this log was 2 months ago. Let me quickly summarize what has occurred in those 2 months.

 

First we sold our house and moved. I had to give up my beautiful shop and pack all my tools! I want to give a deep felt Thanks to Mike Graff who came over and spent the morning helping me. I believe I have also mentioned that the first attempt at the 2nd layer of planking was a failure. So I had to sand all of it off!  The Dremel sure got a work out there. And of course there were a few spots were the Dremel got a bit carried away. I am sure it wasn't me. So there was a session with the putty and more sanding.

 

I also had to order new planking. This is when I found that the thinnest planking I could buy was 3/64". So I HAD to order a thickness sander from Jim. I will say I had great fun running all those strips thru the Sander. They are all now a uniform thickness of 3/128". Then I started over on the planking. Here is the result.

 

You will see that I have now finished the first of 3 bands from the keel up. So far it has turned out much better. And I am pleased with the result. Of course I have now reached the point of needing my first stealer so we will see how a feel then.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Floyd Kershner

[fnkershner]

It has been said on this forum that we should post both our successes and our failures. So let me share with you what for me has been one of my scariest moments. As you will see in the pictures to follow the cross piece (what do you call it?) split down the middle that the bulwarks have sprung. I am in danger of having the whole thing come completely off. I cannot continue planking until this is resolved. My good friend Capt. Harvey has offered suggestions and materials to address this. Now I just have to pull it off.

 

 

Edited July 18, 2013 by Floyd Kershner

[bhermann]

Floyd

 

Ouch!  Is this Harveys way of getting even for the lack of attention over the past couple of months?  I guess you know the glue you used on that piece is very strong.

 

Do you think it was the pull of the planking to straighten out that pulled the piece apart?  Makes me wish I had soaked and pre-bent the planking at the stem!

 

Good luck with the fix - this will be interesting.

 

Bob

[fnkershner]

Bob - Yes the glue is strong. and yes I had soaked everything. but I believe it is the cap rail. It just didn't like being bent that far. The photo doesn't show it well but the cap rail broke too. And right at the max bend point. I am Still not sure how best to fix this. Frankly I am very concerned that anything I do will result in further problems. Harvey has offered two suggestions which I am going to try. The first is he has given me an sheet of walnut so that I can cut a new cap rail that will not have any bending stress. I look forward to trying that. Its the careful sanding I am uncomfortable about. But I must remove the old rail back to the beginning of the bend. Then maybe a scarf joint or similar.

 

The second idea he has offered has me both excited and perplexed. If you look that the picture below you will see what I mean. Straight for the King's own forest He has given 2 real knees! As you noted the piece split along the grain. I am not sure what would happen if the replacement was fashioned with the grain across the bow. But these Knees are just the thing. The grain bends around the corner. One is too big but the other looks like I can fashion it to fit. This is going to take some work to figure how to get it to fit and remain strong. I also need room for the bowsprit.

 

I am very open to ideas & suggestions.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Floyd Kershner

[mtaylor]

Floyd,

 

I think the knees are the way to go. You might try wetting down the hull planks at the bow and clamping them to get some bend and thus the pressure off them.  Even a bit of heat lightly applied might help.     Here's wishing you success on the repair.

[Blackie]

Floyd

 

Sorry to hear about your troubles with the second layer of planking. However, it appears to be behind you. Are you going to taper your planks or just add stealers as required?

As for the split bow - wow! Luckily for me I have had no such issue on my Harvey even after I had abandoned it for many years. I am at a loss as to what could have caused it but perhaps as Bob said, it was the gunwale rails. The knees do appear to be an option to hold it all together. I modified the kit-supplied knee (same one as you have) to change its shape a little and I built up the underside to make it appear thicker. This would only add a little to its strength but I still have some small distance below it clear of the bow sprit so it looks likely that you should be able to get the new knee in and still clear the bowsprit.

In my case I have only fitted recently the gunwale rails and I did not use the kit-supplied walnut. I have never had any luck bending walnut sideways no matter how much I soaked it.  I always use "bendy beech" for gunwale rails as it is a dream to bend any which way. 

 

Blackie

[fnkershner]

The cause was most definitely the gunwale rails. The Bulwarks themselves what not much trouble.

 

Blackie - I agree with you bending walnut sideways is very difficult. I hope to not have to do it again. Also I think you are right about the knee.

 

Mark - I think I will wet every thing down. I am just trying to figure out a good method of clamping.

 

I am hoping there will be less stress on the new knee when I replace the rails with a piece cut to fit and not bent into place.

[fnkershner]

So let me stray just a bit from the discussion above. As mentioned we now live in a new house. My old shop was in the SE corner of our lot and up against the forest. It was mostly shaded by big trees. In our new house my shop is in the garage or the upstairs office. You may have heard that in Seattle we are coming up on 1 month without measurable rain! In short it has been quite hot. Which makes modeling difficult.

 

Let me show you the solution I have crafted. and the front porch for the Sun Goddess (alias Admiral). I now have a great planking station in the shade with a mild breeze.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Floyd Kershner

[bhermann]

Floyd - I think the knees are the way to go. It's funny but I was thinking about compass wood while looking at that split following the grain so exactly. Technique for removing the old stuff will depend on what was used to put it together. There are people here who can give guidance on that.

 

Bob (from the little IPOD reply box)

[fnkershner]

Blackie - I just noticed that did not answer one of your questions. If you look at the markings on the hull you will see that I have marked each of the bulkheads and you will also see that I have created 3 belts. The belts are approx. equal. I have finished the planking of the lower belt. Actually it was very easy since it did not require any stealers or tapering. It consisted of 5 straight planks. The first plank of the middle belt is going to need a stealer and possibly some tapering at the bow. I am probably going to install this plank this weekend. My primary focus is on the top belt which includes the Wale. So I must first fix the damage to the bow. Also my planks are not long enough to make the full run at the wale so I am going to have to do some butt shifting.

 

Bob - Most of the parts were installed using Elmers (PVA) with CA spot welding. This is my preferred way of gluing. I prefer to use PVA whenever possible. When I have a part that I can't clamp or needs to set up fast I use small drops of CA.

 

I am hoping that once I remove the cap rail there will be much less stress on the bend. This should give the knee plenty of time to bond. And if I use a new cap rail with no bending. I should be OK. Fitting the Knee into a tight space will be tricky. But the biggest challenge will be removing all the old damaged parts without breaking the bulwarks.

 

Floyd (from the big windows 8.1 screen)

Edited July 19, 2013 by Floyd Kershner

[Nirvana]

Floyd, I heard from a reliable source your new home is very nice.

Looks like the outdoor set up is up to your standard, and no complaints about dust, I guess.

[fnkershner]

Well friends I have made some progress in my delicate repairs. By the way I hope Jim is listening. Every step of the way I am saying "Thank you Jim, Thank you Jim". I am not sure I would have attempted this without his tools.

 

And by the way to all you scratch builders - I have now tasted the dark side. I can see the appeal. But the answer is an absolute No!. Fabricating parts from plans and from scratch. Wow!

 

So here are the steps taken so far -

 

1. Carefully remove the Cap rail back to the point of the break on the starboard side. remove equal amount on both sides. Also use my trusty Jim Sander with 400 grit to carefully sand everything clean and level.

2. Do the same for the cross piece at the bow that split along the grain. This also requires some finesse with a #11 blade and my wife's finger nail file.

3. Using tracing paper create a paper template of the Cross piece and of the caprail.

4. Take the knee to my Jim Saw and slice off a piece just a smidge thicker that the old part.

5. Glue the template to the Knee slice.

6. Again with the Jim Saw and Sander reduce the piece to the template and sand the template off. (this step includes numerous times of dry fitting to the model) 

 

Here are the results!!!

Edited July 21, 2013 by Floyd Kershner

[fnkershner]

I know the new part is wider in the arms than the kit part. But once bitten twice shy. I want some strength in this new part. Beside now I have a story to tell to fellow modelers when she is in the display case.

 

Now a question to those who read this - Do you have suggestions on how I clamp this together for the glue to set?

 

Let me tell you what I have done so far. I have removed the Cat heads and run a piece of lumber from side to side thru the cat head holes. Then I took several rubber bands of proper length and ran them on the outside of the hull from one side to the other. Looping over the stick coming out of the Cathead hole. This has done a reasonable job of holding the bulwarks in place. Now I need something to clamp the new knee and the 2 sides of the hull at the point where everything comes together. Suggestions?

[Blackie]

Floyd, nice looking knee bracket as a replacement part.

I'm not sure about the clamping. Assuming that the bracket is strong enough to take the initial load, perhaps some pegs/spring clamps to hold the bulwarks to the bracket and some rubber bands/masking tape wrapped around the bow to hold everything until the glue dries? Another option might be some form of timber jig that is shaped to slip onto the outside/across the top of the bulwarks. As it is slipped on it will press the two sides in and hold it all together from the outside.

Good luck, Blackie

[themadchemist]

Hey Floyd

Laterally bending the caprail is a tough task. I attempted it on my build but with no luck, so I ended up butt jointing 3 planks to form a wider plank to cut the curved rail from. I use scarf joints to join the rails.

The knee's are a better way to go and should be indestructable. I've seen where fruit tree knees are used in wooden spoon making to give the grain strength in the curved part of the spoon. Plus the knee will make and interesting talking point when she done.

Clamping should be a breeze once the rail isn't under the force of spring back, at least I would think.

 

I found the small binder clip really helpful in holding the rail down

 

Edited July 26, 2013 by themadchemist

[mtaylor]

Floyd,

What about treenails through the knee and into the supporting structure under it (bulwarks, maybe?)? 

 

What I did when that happened to my Scottish Maid (sorry, no photos, it was pre-DDM and MSW), I ran a long 'stick' down the side of the bulwarks.  spot tacked with glue to the hull.  I put 5 or 6 heavy rubber banks down the length and then began rubber banding what I had overhanging off the bow (about 6" worth).  A bit of water on the front area and it came together but ever so slowly.

[fnkershner]

Mark - I think you have the right Idea. A pin of some kind to strengthen the bond. Right now I have detoured to get my 18 ft boat in the water. A friend came over and we got the new pontoons on and the rudders! now all I need is a Saturday to finish the rigging. Maybe we launch this weekend! then I will be back to the Harvey!

[Anja]

Hello Floyd,

 

Happy birthday. I hope you have a wonderful day.

 

Anja

[trippwj]

Hope you have a fantastic Birthday, Floyd!

 

[mtaylor]

Happy birthday, Floyd,

[riverboat]

"Happy Birthday" Floyd.........  have a good one !!! 

Frank

[lamarvalley]

Happy Birthday Floyd. Make it a good one!

[fnkershner]

I want to thank everyone for the birthday wishes. I have been away on a business trip to Chicago and just returned. I had a wonderful weekend playing tourist. but now its time to get back to modeling!

[fnkershner]

Well it must be my new age. I just realized I had not posted a picture of my repaired knee. Here you go! I am quite pleased with the result. As soon as I finish the planking I will also fix the rail. I disaster that turned into a learning experience. Very nice.

 

I am sorry I am having some technical difficulty with my computer. presently I cannot upload photos. Standby.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Floyd Kershner

[texxn5]

Floyd, very nice build.  Traveling the east coast I am beginning to appreciate the importance of these types of ships....very nice indeed

[fnkershner]

I can't believe it is November and it has been 2 months since I updated this log. In those 2 months as most of you know there was a 2 week side trip to the America's Cup.

 

So let me bring you up to date.

 

As mentioned above I am doing 2 layers of hull planking, and there will be no cooper or paint. So I am using this as a learning experience to get the 2nd layer looking very good. At this point it has been mostly a frustrating experience. I have tried several approaches. I have also planked about 1/2 of the hull before I ripped it all off and started over. I am now on my 3rd attempt. I have also come to the conclusion that there is no other way for this to turn out right except for Spiling.

 

This has led to much experimentation and lots of wasted planking. I now have quite a collection of Walnut planks of various sizes and widths. I finally decided to adopt Chuck's approach. I want to offer a big thanks to Chuck for my endless questions on the smallest detail.

 

So let me lead you thru the steps and add some observations/comments

 

1. As recommended from many different sources I divided the hull into 3 bands. Each band was approx. 7 planks.

2. I started planking from the keel with the Garboard strake. I found that the first 5 planks would lay quite straight with no tapering on either end. This almost filled the first band.

3. I continued planking from the keel tapering at the bow and inserting a stealer at the stern. About this point the planking is 1/2 done on each side. It has been a long hard road but each try has been an improvement over the previous attempt.

4. Now as you can see from the pictures I have reached a critical spot. If you just layed a full width plank with no taper or bend you can see how far off it is from laying correctly. I could not see how a stealer or drop plank would solve this. I will not bore you with all the different things I tried and how much lumber was wasted. It may not look like it but those planks held by pins are at the widest park and completely straight.

5. Finally I succumbed to the Spiling demons. I will pick up this narrative in the next post.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Floyd Kershner

[Blackie]

Hi Floyd

I know how you feel about the planking - it is a really tough time!! I took months of real time to get the second layer onto my Harvey and I won't bore you with the process now as you are well into it. However, I might say that you perhaps will need to start tapering the lower planks at the bow a few planks sooner. In my case I pretty much tapered every plank at the bow except for the garboard plank and first plank below the wale.

That said, I hear you about removing planks, so to avoid that again you could try to fit stealers by stopping some planks short of the stem and cut the next one into and over it. Depending on the "distance" between the fitted planks at say frame 2 and frame 7 you could figure out the necessary taper and perhaps only one plank needs to stop short and still not taper more that half of the other plank widths. I had to add in a few stealers at the stern of my Harvey which you can probably see in my log photos.

I could send you a sketch if all of that does not make sense.

How about a photo of your repaired knee?

[bhermann]

Floyd -

 

I look at those photos and just shudder.  It brings back memories of the amount of edge bending that went into my current hull.  It seems like there is no way to make it right without spiling a plank that starts out 4 times wider than what you are working with.  That plank would wind up looking a bit like a whale - very narrow at the ends and much too wide in the center.

 

I tried picturing how the shipwrights would deal with this on the real thing, and a bit of a light bulb went off.  They wouldn't be dealing with a single plank running the length of the hull from stem to stern - they would be using multiple planks in each strake and would be able to change the angle on each plank in the run as partial compensation for the edge bending we need to do to complete a strake with a single piece of wood.  I guess that's one more reason for considering scale length planks for our builds ( have to remember that for my next one ).

 

I agree that spiling is the way to go and look forward to seeing your progress on Harvey.  I know my observation here isn't particularly useful, I am just suggesting another way to look at the process.

 

Bob