HMS Pegasus by Landlubber Mike - Amati/Victory Models - Scale 1:64

[Landlubber Mike]

Another question on adding mast and capstan partners.  Hopefully Alistair sees this post - I'm not sure if I'm going to build the partners like you did (they are a cool little detail to add), but I read up on them last night and was wondering how you constructed them.  

 

Did you build them per TFFM where the bottom middle section was a little deeper and the bottom ends sat a little higher to sit right on the deck (it's hard to describe in words, but it looked like the partners sorta slotted onto the deck).  Or did you just build it flat and sit it on top of the deck?  The latter seems much easier, and the difference probably wouldn't be noticeable anyway.

 

Also, any sense as to whether the partners were the same wood/color as the deck?  To build them, I think I would need slightly thicker wood than used for the deck planks, but I didn't think ahead to order thicker sheets of maple from Jeff.  If I went ahead and added them, I might use the same wood that I used to build the hatch coamings and other deck items.

 

Thanks!

[Landlubber Mike]

Thanks Steve for chiming in and the pictures.  Nice feet 

 

I like the pictures of the planking running into the margin planks.  Very helpful to see.  It also looks like the planks ran straight in the middle and then the ones to the sides started curving in.  I'm probably just going to keep my runs with straight planks.

[aliluke]

Hi Mike

On page 4 of my log you can see the planking plan that I drew for the main deck. This shows in red where I located the butts. My planks were 1/8" X 1/32" = 3.175mm x 0.8mm. Doing the drawing really helped me work my plan for the planking - you welcome to follow it but with wider planks yours will work out differently.

 

The partners and capstan step were just made flat and laid directly on top of the deck - see page 8 of my log. I think replicating the exact details as per the FFM would be very difficult and ultimately pointless i.e. invisible. Using a contrasting timber might be a nice touch. Mine were just the same colour as the deck.

[Beef Wellington]

Mike - I'm not sure that the planking terminating into the king plank is entirely period appropriate. The planks should curve, but terminate at the margin plan, not the king plank as per the photo which I think is a more modern configuration.  I've also not seen a king plank used on the upper deck of a ship of this type/period.  Would be happy to be contradicted by those more knowledgeable.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Beef Wellington

[Landlubber Mike]

Thanks guys, this is all very helpful.  Alistair, I printed out your templates this morning - hope you don't mind if I shameless steal your work 

 

Any sense from anyone about whether the king plank should be wider than the standard planks or not?  Maybe I'll post in the planking section as well.

[aliluke]

Copy away Mike.

 

I don't know about this king plank stuff. I certainly didn't do one. I did however centre my central plank on the centreline of the deck rather than flanking the centreline with two planks. I've seen it done both ways but I believe that central plank should be centred.

 

Another decision you need to make before starting is whether you are going to overlay the hatches on the deck or inset them (where the planks butt into the sides of the hatch and a caulking line is created at the butt). I inset my hatches which I think looks better and is more accurate but it requires more forward planning. If you inset them you need to lay out your hatches to the correct outer dimensions and cut your planks to suit. This leaves a gap between the plank ends and sides and the hatch cut outs in the false plywood deck - I think there are photos in my log that show this.

[Landlubber Mike]

Thanks guys.  I took a look at Dan's log, and he uses a king plank that is 12" wide (4.76mm scaled) and the remaining planks 8" wide (or 3.17mm scaled).  Interestingly, it looks like he used a wider king plank for the lower deck, quarterdeck and forecastle planking, but hard to tell if he used a wider plank for the upper deck.

 

Alistair, I liked your approach on your log (though BE's approach of dropping the hatches onto the deck works nicely also).  I'm leaning towards doing it your way, which means that I'll need to do a little planning to make sure that things line up properly.

[Landlubber Mike]

It's been a few days since I last posted, but not too much progress here.  I did end up adding some planks to the lower deck under the upper deck fore hatch (which is open with a ladder).  The planks were probably not necessary, but they add a little detail if one looks at the right angle.  

 

For the lower deck planks, I ended up using a single lime strip from the kit.  I was originally planning to use the tanganyika, but it's a bit more yellow and the lime matches the maple that I'm ultimately planning to use for the decks much better.  The size of the lime strips (at 5mm) is probably a closer match to the width I plan to use for my deck planks in general (the tanganyika in the kit is 3mm).  The lime in the kit is actually very nice - clean, nice edges, etc.  Aside from it being 1.5mm thick, I would almost think that you could use it for the deck planking in general it's that nice.

 

 

 

Most of my time has been spent researching the size of planks, how to run the planks on the upper deck, etc.  The TFFM series has nice pictures of deck planking plans that one could use.  The plans, however, use curved planks, anchor stock planks, etc., making planking a little more complicated than using straight, square planks.  At the same time, the TFFM plans are easier in that they don't use nibbling planks into the margin planks.  The TFFM plans also have thicker planks with fewer runs (11 or so per side between the king plank and margin plank, versus 18 or so if you use 3mm straight planks per the plans), but require more customization of the planks.  I might do a bit of a hybrid by using straight planks for as many runs as possible, then switch over to the TFFM plans.  Most of the lower deck planking will be covered up, but it will give me a little practice for the quarterdeck and fore deck planking if I go the TFFM route.

 

In the meantime, I'm going to start preparing the hatches.  I plan to attempt to butt planks against the hatches, rather than sit the hatch on top of the planking, so it might make sense to build them and install them first, and then determine the run of planks that will but against them.  

Edited October 4, 2014 by Landlubber Mike

[Landlubber Mike]

I spent some time last night mapping out my upper deck planking pattern.  I realized that it might make more sense at this time to build the hatches, since I will butt the planks against the hatches (as opposed to sitting the completed hatch on top of the planking).  So, I started putting together the gratings.  Like other kits, the kit gives you enough to create six full sized ones (with two extras), which you then cut down to size to fit the grating you need.  The quality of the gratings seems very good.  The pieces are clean and fit together very well.  

 

 

 

I think the wood for the gratings is a little on the lighter side.  Since I'm going to use pear or redheart for the coamings (probably pear), I think I'm going to darken them with a little stain.  I ended up buying Minwax "Golden Oak" and "Antique Oak" this afternoon, and tested them out on some scrap basswood, which is close to the natural color of the gratings (and the maple I got from Jeff).  Golden Oak is on the right:

 

 

 

I like the look of the Golden Oak so will use that for the gratings.  I'll probably stain the gratings first, then use a very dilute glue wash over them, as I'm not sure if the stain will penetrate the glue wash coating.

 

The Antique Oak surprised me, as it came out more gray than what I thought from the picture on the can.  I actually like the look of it for deck planks, as I think decks took on a more gray hue.  The Charles Morgan's deck was gray, and so I was wondering whether I needed to use one of the wood ager products out there to get that color hue once I get to that kit.  I might test it on some maple scrap to see if I like it.  I'm more interested in a darker model with more patina on it than a crisp model, so I'm wondering if the natural maple will end up looking too light.

 

Anyway, just thought I'd share my experiments on here.  Back to the shipyard I go.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Landlubber Mike

[mtaylor]

Hey Mike,

 

On the gratings... if you only build out the size you need, you'll have a bunch of strips left over.  You can then use those strips for more gratings.     Just a trick I learned on the Constellation build as there wasn't enough gratings for all the add-on I did.

[Landlubber Mike]

Thanks Mark - I wondered about that.  By my calculations, I think I have plenty for all the gratings on the build, but I should double check before I start gluing things 

[mtaylor]

Kit-bashing is an inexact science, Mike.  I learned the hard way.  The one thing I did learn was to hoard all the parts I could find such as the grating strips, planking strips, etc. 

[Landlubber Mike]

Good point.  I think I'm going to cut out the various gratings now, and then glue them together.  I already stained them, but I am going to need to sand them for shape and camber anyhow so will just need to re-stain them.

[Landlubber Mike]

I'm probably the king of indecisiveness at this point.  After staining the gratings last night and thinking about stains in general, I'm wondering about using stains more throughout the build.   I was planning on replacing some of the kit walnut with pear (the parts that won't be black), since the walnut is all over the place in color.  I actually wanted a darker color like walnut for the hull planking and hatch coamings, which led me last night to think about staining the pear a little darker.  I sourced my pear from Jeff, so it's a very uniform color and grain and should stain very evenly.

 

Has anyone used stains/dyes other than black on pear?  I know some people prefer painting and/or using wood with very tight grain, but I'm thinking that on this build that I want to actually highlight the grain a little so that the ship comes out darker, and more aged looking if that makes sense.  

[Martin W]

Hi Mike -- That's an interesting question about staining pear. I've never done it, since I figured that if I was using a particular species I should highlight its own qualities.  I have rubbed some lemon oil onto some pear, however, and found that it still kept its pinkish tone but got just a wee bit darker, and the depth of the grain stood out more.  I don't know how walnut would look for small pieces like the coamings, since its grain is very broad, and tends to conflict with the scale.  I used some for the railings on my earlier build, The Rattlesnake, and regretted it.  You might think of something like cherry, if the aim is to get contrasting wood tones, since it is darker and less pinkish than pear.  It's not that much fun to work with, though, since -- at least in my "experience" -- it splinters and splits pretty easily.

 

Staining does offer some interesting possibilities.  I like the way you've shown the different shades, and will be looking forward to what you experiment with further.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

[Beef Wellington]

Hi Mike - can't help at all, but can tell you you are not alone in your dilemma, I'm having similar challenges.  I also have some pear for the coamings which seems nice to work with but I'm not sure I'm a huge fan of the 'pinkish' hue against other woods - you live and learn I suppose.  I am tempted to stain or paint then black (which don't think was an uncommon practice) but I'm also will still be using paint as well on the the ship itself.  A look that I do like is the almost monotone deck/coaming/grating look on admiralty models.  Looking forward to seeing what you decide.

[Landlubber Mike]

Thanks very much guys.  I think when you look at some of the master modelers out there, they may be using some type of product that has stain-like properties.  Their wood looks like it has a touch of patina to it, which leads me to wonder what they are using. 

 

Pear with tung oil turns a very nice lighter shade of brown.  I'm planning on using pure natural woods on my Lyme build (pear, boxwood, ebonized pear, and probably redheart) to go with the look that ChrisLBren has with his Confederacy.  My Lyme won't be coppered, and so I think Chris' approach would work very well on my Lyme build.

 

For my Pegasus on the other hand, it's going to be coppered, and so the hull won't have much of the base wood exposed.  I wanted to go with a darker palette on the build (with dark browns, blacks and reds accented by the maple decks and boxwood railings and masts) - and while I like the look of oiled walnut, the walnut in my kit is all over the place in color.  I might try and see if I can salvage enough walnut with uniform color for the upper hull planking and deck items.  If not, I will use pear and stain it.

 

Do you guys have any thoughts about using that antique oak stain to get a more grayish hue on my decks?  Most decks I've seen for builds on here go with a very light color or a yellowish/light brown color.

 

Thanks!

Edited October 7, 2014 by Landlubber Mike

[Martin W]

Mike -- have you posted any pictures of the antique oak stain on maple?  I've been building some bookshelves with maple plywood & veneer, and have found that just oiling them (I'm fond of oil) does in fact darken the maple, changing from a very light beige tone to a deep gold.  I tried putting some "maple" stain on a piece of scrap, and immediately rejected it for looking yellow.  One interesting experiment might be to set the different types of wood you're thinking of using alongside each other, and judging the contrast that way.  And it's worth remembering that wood will mellow and darken a bit with age.

 

I should also say that because of your experiments, I'm thinking that my next build (whatever it may be, in, oh, six or seven years) will have a maple deck.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

[Landlubber Mike]

Hi Martin,

 

It's good to have a partner in crime on this painting with wood stuff  I haven't tried staining or oiling the maple yet - I did try the stain on some scrap basswood (which is roughly the same color as my maple) to get an idea of color changes.  You can find that post here:

 

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/7267-hms-pegasus-by-landlubber-mike-amativictory-models-scale-164/?p=245802

 

 

Ultimately, I'll test different finishes/stains on the maple I got from Hobbymill.  It's good to know that oiling the maple did bring out a nice rich color to it.  I just haven't seen too many gray decks on here (I think I've only seen one on a weathered build, but I forget which build log that was on).

 

By the way, I really like your holly deck.  Holly was a bit too white for the look I was going for, so I figured that I would try maple out.  Along with the color of the decks, I've been thinking about the planking patterns.  The TFFM books show a very unique pattern that mostly uses curved and tapered planks, along with a few rows of anchor stock planking.  The benefit of the pattern is that you don't need to create nibbling joints at the margin planks, but otherwise, you're customizing every plank.  I don't know if I can pull it off or if it is otherwise worth the effort, but like you (from what I read on your log), I see this as an opportunity to improve my woodworking skills.  

[mtaylor]

Mike,

 

Rule of thumb... always test ALL stains and finishes.   Polyurethane seems to give all wood a yellowish hue.  If you don't want any change in color, a clear lacquer will work well.  I've been trying to do the paint with wood thing, but my painting usually seems to be from a dried up palate   :D .    

 

Silver maple doesn't seem to be as white as holly, IMO.  But it does have some more grain but I think that depends on the tree itself not on the type of wood.  

 

I'm no help on stains.  The only one I've tried is Min-Wax Ebony Black.  I know a lot of builders (both kit and scratch) swear by Fiebling's leather dye and it comes in a rather large assortment of colors.  If you go that route, follow the instructions for mixing with alcohol instead of water so as not to raise the grain.

 

 

BTW, to clear up some perceived confusion, pear is usually a nice light brown. Swiss pear is usually pink.  And not all plain (not Swiss) pear are equal.  Same goes for cherry, etc.   

[Landlubber Mike]

Thanks Mark, that's great information.  

 

I bought some maple and holly from Hobbymill - you're right, the maple is not quite as light, and has a little more grain.  I want this build to be a little darker and grainier, so I figured maple might fit the bill nicely.  I'll have to test out some finishes on it before the final product though.

 

The swiss pear I got from Jeff is a pinkish color.  I tested out tung oil on it, and it turned a nice medium brown color.  ChrisLBren's Confederacy shows what a well-oiled pear hull will look like - absolutely gorgeous build in my opinion.

 

I'm using General Finishes black stain on my Pegasus build - the walnut seems to take it very nicely, so I'll stick with that finish rather than go the shoe leather dye route.  I'll use the shoe leather dye on my Lyme build though, to hopefully get results close to Chris' Confederacy.

[Landlubber Mike]

I've made a little more progress on the Pegasus this past week.  After putting together the grating pieces, I cut them to the appropriate size (or thereabouts) using a small X-acto saw blade, and then used my disc sander to square the pieces.  You can see that the kit gives you plenty of extra grating pieces, which was nice.  I used Minwax "golden oak" to darken them a bit.  I like the color, but man, that Minwax stuff stinks.  The stains from General Finishes seem to not have much odor to them, or at least the odor doesn't persist like the Minwax stuff.

 

 

 

I've also been plotting out the upper deck planking pattern, and started to work on the hatches.  I made the fore hatch which will have a ladder down to the lower deck.  I decided to use the TFFM measurements, and went with a 24mm x 24mm size.  The kit plans have the hatch a bit more rectangular (I think 21.5 x 23.5mm or so).  On my Badger, I think I just glued four wood strips together (I might have gotten fancy and mitered the corners, I forget).  Here, I decided to use box joints like my fellow Swan class builders.  I think the joints came out fairly well.  I first marked out the joints on the four wood strips, then used a small Xacto saw blade to the the vertical part of the joint, and then finished with chisels, needle files, and sanding blocks.  I still need to round the corners above the deck level, but otherwise, the first hatch came out pretty well.  I have to say that it was fun cutting out the hatch.  Using my Byrnes table saw and disc sander, I had a great time, and better yet, I think I'm getting pretty good results.

 

 

 

The picture below shows the hatch (in pear) on top of the stained gratings.  I don't think the colors work very well together.  The pear will turn a warm light brown when treated with tung oil, but not dark enough I don't think.  So, I'm waiting for some General Finishes stains to arrive and I can test out what would work.  I'm thinking a more darker medium brown (like walnut) would look much better.

 

 

 

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know how the ladders are positioned in the companionways?  The plans show them running athwartships, but I didn't know if it mattered whether they went down from port to starboard, or from starboard to port.

Edited October 12, 2014 by Landlubber Mike

[jwvolz]

Very nice Mike. 

[Martin W]

Good looking joints, Mike, and it's great that you had fun making them.  A clear record exists of my incapacity to read plans, so take this provisionally, but the way I see the NMM plans of The Fly, the ladders seem to run from starboard to port.

 

I'm afraid I agree about the colors of the pear & royal oak -- the pear might need darkening somehow and the oak lightening.  Maybe the oil will do that.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

[Landlubber Mike]

Thanks very much Spyglass.  At this scale, I think it's beyond my capabilities to come up with an angled miter joint - would be more historically accurate, but I think the box joint should suffice.  If this was an admiralty model, maybe I would try to use angled lap joints, but the deck will be busy enough that I went with box joints. 

 

On the camber thing, I'm probably going to sand a very slight camber of 0.5-1mm into the hatch.  The hatch will sit on the deck template and not on top of the planking, so with 0.5mm planks, the top and bottom tongues of the joint will roughly match - at least that's the plan 

 

Thanks Martin - I'll let you know the results of my stain tests.  I'm a little annoyed at Woodcraft in that I ordered the stains last Sunday, and last night got an email that the order is "in process."  So, I might not get the stains for another week which is a bummer.  On the ladders, I should take a better look at TFFM - maybe they say something about the orientation.

Edited October 12, 2014 by Landlubber Mike

[Martin W]

Mike -- I've had that exact same experience with Woodcraft.  But once I've gotten the in-process email, the order has usually arrived in the next day or so.

 

Good luck, and don't gnash your teeth.

 

Martin

[Landlubber Mike]

Thanks Martin, hope that means that they will turn the order around quickly  I think my last order with them arrived within a week.

[Landlubber Mike]

I spent the day plotting out the upper deck.  I'm going to attempt to plank it as in TFFM, with curved planks and all.  I'm also going to try and add the mast partners, which should add a nice touch as in Alistair's log.    Excuse the mess - I got a little stain on it the other day.

 

 

 

It took a bit of time, as I'm using both the kit's plans, TFFM and the NMM plans.  In a few areas, I'm deviating slightly from the measurements of the hatches in the kit plans - mostly, to conform to TFFM and so that I can butt the planks against the hatches, rather than lay the hatches on the deck planking.  So, it does take some planning.  I plotted out the deck items, the king plank, and the seven or so planks between the king plank and the start of the anchor planking.  In the waist area between the fore hatch and the main hatch, the planks are relatively straight, so I marked them out as the base for the rest of the planking.  The lines perpendicular to the planking are frames on which the butts of the planks will sit.

 

Aside from the planking run, I'm making one pretty big change from the kit plans.  The kit has the after hatch immediately behind the bitts.  From TFFM and the NMM plans, however, it looks like the bitts actually ran through the after hatch.  It makes things a little more complicated, but hopefully it shouldn't be too bad.

 

After transferring the plans over to the upper deck template, I went ahead and glued it to the hull.  The extra supports I added were of great help - thanks very much to all who recommended adding them.  Without the supports, the template would have a tendency to "tent" up at the seam in those open areas.  I used plenty of push pins as you can see in the picture below, and also some weights in some of the unsupported areas.  All in all, a bit of progress and I can finally start planking the deck 

 

 

 

Question for the other Swan class builders out there.  I was looking at Volume 3 of TFFM today, and the author built his Pegasus adding a full bulkhead under the aft portion of the forecastle.  Has anyone else considered doing this?  I'm not sure that I want to go that route, but just thought I'd ask to see if anyone else considered it.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Landlubber Mike

[Blue Ensign]

Hi Mike, moving the aft hatch forward to encompass the jeer bitts may have one beneficial side affect - that is leaving more room for the Quarterdeck ladderway to clear the hatch ledges, but in terms of visual impact the modification won't been seen once the pumps and qd are in place.

 

I decided not to fit the Fo'csle bulkhead as I wanted a view of the stove, but others have done it and it's quite a viable modification, down to personal choice I suppose.

 

Like your approach to the deck work.

 

Cheers,

 

B.E.

[aliluke]

I can only wish you luck Mike. The curvature of the planks will disappear under the upper decks. I curved the forecastle and quarter deck planks with variable success - these at least can be seen. Curving them and then losing sight of them sees a bit mad...but it is your groove to follow. There is a whole discussion here - making things that can't be seen later.

 

The bulkheads were break-out pieces. So if the bulkhead is in place the guns would be run-in and the ports closed. If you leave the bulkheads out then add the cants on the deck, it is a nice little detail but I reckon the cannon should be run-out in that configuration. I left off the aft most cannons and put in a bulkhead forward of this post to justify that. Why? I didn't want to rig more cannons than I could get in packs of 4. So doing 16 cannons was a good idea rather than rigging 18 and paying for 20! Cheap...yep but I bet the commanders of these ships thought the same way. Also making a closed port lid is an interesting little model challenge...Conclusion  - if the bulkhead is in place the cannon fore or aft of that, under the upper decks, would be stowed and the lid closed. If you like bulkheads or cannons becomes the question. I don't think you can have both.