Can i live without a BYRNES TABLE SAW

[flying_dutchman2]

This has got to be one of the best threads on tools I have ever read and that means not only MSW but everything on the NET.

All suggestions made by members on different type, make and models I have written down and will research each of them thoroughly (except the Byrnes tools). I have learned a lot here and the different suggestions on why a band saw and not a circular saw.

 

I use my scroll saw for just about everything.

 

I do have a question about band saws.

Can you do curves with a band saw (like with a scroll saw)? For example when you cut out frames?

 

THANK YOU

Marc

Edited December 9, 2014 by Marcus Botanicus

[GLakie]

This has got to be one of the best threads on tools I have ever read and that means not only MSW but everything on the NET.

All suggestions made by members on different type, make and models I have written down and will research each of them thoroughly (except the Byrnes tools). I have learned a lot here and the different suggestions on why a band saw and not a circular saw.

 

I use my scroll saw for just about everything.

 

I do have a question about band saws.

Can you do curves with a band saw (like with a scroll saw)? For example when you cut out frames?

 

THANK YOU

Marc

Hi Marc: Bench-top band-saws typically, are capable of using 3/8", 1/4", and 1/8" blades, and, with the 1/8" you can scroll what-ever you like, with two exceptions. The 9" or 10" throat limitation instead of the 16" or more you'll find in a scroll saw, and scrolling a cut in the middle of a board through a hole you drill in it. For my purposes, a band-saw is the go-to tool for re-saw work, and with the right set-up, I've even cut half-lap joints with them. For the saws that don't come with a fence, you can tool up a mitered workstation with a home-made fence out of plywood, miter-bar and miter track, a handy, removable, tool for re-saw jobs, or ripping shorter stock 2' to 4' long in general.

 

Cheers 

[Jaxboat]

Greg,

I have seen the Preac video and it is a good primer for using the saw or any mini saw for that manner. I also believe someone is offering an electric motor upgrade for the Preac (Vanda Lay?). The Byrnes saw is a beautiful thing for sure

Best

Jaxboat

[Landlubber Mike]

The perfect recipe for a workshop for scratch or semi-scratch builders:

 

1 part Byrnes table saw

1 part Byrnes thickness sander

1 part Byrnes disk sander

 

After simmering, add in 1 part Sherline Mill and 1 part Proxxon planer

Finish with Sherline lathe and mini drill press

 

The above recipe will require a large portion of lettuce (green) but the finished product should last a lifetime

 

I hope this doesn't derail the thread too much, but I was wondering if someone could explain to me why a mini drill press is needed if you have a Sherline Mill?  I have a Sherline mill, and was hoping to use it instead of my Dremel drill press.

 

 

 

I have all of the above except for the Planer. The tool most used out of them all is the Byrnes Table Saw .

 

Apart from the obvious uses you can't beat it for making very exact rebates, for example in Mast Tops :

 

Trestle Trees.jpg

 

Or for cutting planks to half thickness for the Top Floors :

 

Top Planks 001.jpg

 

  Danny

 

That's really nice work Danny.  This may be a dumb question, but how did you support the pieces as they approached the blade?  I've seen examples of this kind of work and always wondered how people accomplished it as I worry about my fingers being anywhere the blade.

[Twister]

I use a Record BS300E bandsaw and there really isn't much I can't do on it. Instructions for use: Before even switching it on throw away the blades that Record supply. Buy a selection of decent blades in varying widths, tooth counts and tooth pattern. Mine can effectively use anything between 3/4" (great for re-saw work & cutting veneers) down to 1/8" which will cut incredibly tight radii. I've found the blad that gets the most use is the 3/8" 4 tpi (can't remember tooth pattern off hand. If memory serves, the little bench top bandsaws tend to be of the three wheel type and thus struggle to get decent blade tension on the wider blade widths.

 

I guess there's no 'one size fits all' when it comes to tools of any description which is why we probably end up with cluttered workshops. We've all had 'those' conversations with our better halves - of course I really need it for this job, AND it'll be so useful for all those other little jobs...

 

Row

 

The 'throw away the blades' line applies to any hobby / light workshop grade bandsaw - I guarantee you'll be amazed at the difference 'quality' blades will make - assuming the blade guides are effective.

[flying_dutchman2]

Hi Marc: Bench-top band-saws typically, are capable of using 3/8", 1/4", and 1/8" blades, and, with the 1/8" you can scroll what-ever you like, with two exceptions. The 9" or 10" throat limitation instead of the 16" or more you'll find in a scroll saw, and scrolling a cut in the middle of a board through a hole you drill in it. For my purposes, a band-saw is the go-to tool for re-saw work, and with the right set-up, I've even cut half-lap joints with them. 

Cheers

George;

Thanks for the info. The limitations on the throat I can live with. I have a simple scroll saw from Skill (just under $100), use it for fret work, create puzzles, and always try new things. Have built a fence for it as well. I like the idea of what you can do with a 1/8 blade.

 

Question: Are the blades for the band-saw, especially the 1/8th pretty rigid. Sometimes with the scroll saw the blade is on a slight angle if I push too hard so the edge is on an angle.

 

I would like to research table top band-saws. Are they sturdy enough that they don't vibrate of the table or work bench?

What other suggestions do you have if I invest in a bench-top band-saw?

 

Any advice is appreciated.

Thanks, Marc

[flying_dutchman2]

Twister;

I checked out your built of your 1:28 Scale J class yacht 'Enterprise' (R/C). That is a slick boat. Love the lines. I'll be following that one. I purchased a Soling 1 meter R/C boat from one of my club members who was no longer able to build models.

 

Is it scratch? Where did you get the plans?

 

Marc

[GLakie]

George;

Thanks for the info. The limitations on the throat I can live with. I have a simple scroll saw from Skill (just under $100), use it for fret work, create puzzles, and always try new things. Have built a fence for it as well. I like the idea of what you can do with a 1/8 blade.

 

Question: Are the blades for the band-saw, especially the 1/8th pretty rigid. Sometimes with the scroll saw the blade is on a slight angle if I push too hard so the edge is on an angle.

 

I would like to research table top band-saws. Are they sturdy enough that they don't vibrate of the table or work bench?

What other suggestions do you have if I invest in a bench-top band-saw?

 

Any advice is appreciated.

Thanks, Marc

The sturdiness of the blade comes down to type of wood, rate of feed, and most important, blade quality. Mine is the 10" Craftsman. It's alright, but, because of the 1 year warranty, I'm actually thinking of going with the 10" Rikon. They cost a little more, but are also pretty well-made, and come with a 5 year warranty. As to the table saw, the Byrnes is the only one I've read reviews about, that you can set a nickel on edge right on the table, start the machine, and it'll stay standing. Very little, if any, vibration. Also very good dust collection.

 

Cheers

[rtropp]

How do the Proxxon Planer and the Byrnes Thickness Sander compliment each other.  ( thought they did the same thing but with different approach, blade vs sandpaper??)

 

Richard

[Dan Vadas]

Hi Mike,

 

how did you support the pieces as they approached the blade?

 

 

Carefully . I used a Push Stick to hold the piece down on the table.

 

  Danny

[rtropp]

I wanted to see if I could solve the ripping question without resorting to additional tools. (Ones that would really start to crowd my small workshop.) So started playing around with the possibilities with my existing tools.

 

As I though about it, I realized that I very rarely needed pieces that were more than 2" wide.  This thought came to me from working on the Triad cross section and the Syren. Of course other builds might change this but I could worry about it then.  Also,  I could always buy the occasional sheet of in three or four inch wide stock if needed.

 

So I tried an experiment with some 1 inch thick  by four inch wide basswood that I have on hand. 

 

First I cut the 4" wide plank into 2 inch wide planks. (so I ended up with two pieces that were 1'" thick x2" wide x24 long piece" 

 

Then marked a center line along the edge of one of the cut planks.

 

 

Next, with my Byrnes blade extended to its full height, I made two opposing cuts in the center of each 1" edge so the cut would meet in the center. ( I took this picture of the first cut while it was still 4" wide. Given the blade capacity, I would only get planks that were 15/16" wide after turning it on the side to cut out each piece. So I tried again by first cutting the four inches down to two inches, then made the opposing center cuts.  Of course I forgot to take a picture of this, but you get the idea.

 

 

The blade was large enough to overlap slightly at the center of the board giving me two planks that were 1/2" by 2" by 24"

 

 

I  put each of those planks flat on its 2" wide side and cut it into 1/8" and 1/4" planks at 2" wide. Below is a 1/8" by 2" x 24" plank

 

 

This should work as well if the board was two inches thick (actually with a 15/16" cut depth the maximum would be a little less than two inches.) 

 

As I read through this I see that my explanation is more complex than the actual production of the planks.  it also occurs to me that different cutting sequences can be used to obtain different results.  Rhis first try seemed to work for Basswood.  I will also have to see how it works on the boxwood and pear when it arrives.

 

I guess will need to see if 2" wide will really cover most of my needs.  While the 1" wide planks that I made in my experiment were too narrow for some of the frame sections on the Triton cross section, the two inch wide should get it.

 

If not, its back to figuring out where to put a band saw, and, now as I understand it, I also need a jointer. I wonder if my wife would let me make the sunroom our living room and make the living room my my shop.... nah, not a chance.

 

Richard

[Roman]

Question: Are the blades for the band-saw, especially the 1/8th pretty rigid. Sometimes with the scroll saw the blade is on a slight angle if I push too hard so the edge is on an angle.

 

I would like to research table top band-saws. Are they sturdy enough that they don't vibrate of the table or work bench?

What other suggestions do you have if I invest in a bench-top band-saw?

 

Any advice is appreciated.

Thanks, Marc

Marc, there could be several issues that cause the scroll saw and bandsaw blades to wander off track. One of them is force feeding the wood into the blade and not allowing it to cut at its natural pace. This causes the blade to dull up prematurely and it forces you to add more pressure to feed and correct the trajectory of the cut. The second has to do with the blade itself. Scroll saw and Bandsaw blades are fabricated by a stamping process that leaves one side of the blade or the exit side of the stamp sharper; when installed on the saw this sharp edge will want to push the blade to one side. This of course has to do with the quality of the blade. When ever possible try to use double skip tooth blades, this has a positive effect on the cut and will reduce the amount of sanding you will need to do as they cut faster and cleaner. The gap between the double tooth format allows the blade to remove the wood dust more efficiently from the kerf and keeps the blade cutting cooler without burnishing the wood; furthermore if you use a reverse skip tooth or double skip tooth the tear-out at the bottom of the cut will be reduced. Scroll saw blades are hardened along the cutting edge but not at the grip points( top & bottom )where they are malleable, this is to allow you to twist the tips and mount the blade sideways on your scroll saw. This action increases the length of the rip cut beyond the throat capacity of the machine. The Olson sheet provided as a pdf shows how to round off the back of the blade to improve its performance and prevent wander. This does not need be anything complicated you can use an emery board, a file or even sandpaper for metal. Give it a try.

 

Best regards

Roman

FinishingStone.pdf

[fletch944t]

Thanks for the post Roman. Very interesting reading. I'm going to give that a try.

 

Fletch

[fletch944t]

To answer your question Richard, the planer is more for dimensioning wood. The thickness sander is more for finishing. They can, as you stated, perform similar functions (to a point).

 

For example, you would typically use a planer to square up a piece of wood and you needed to remove a lot of material to do so. And, by a lot I mean more than 1-2 mm. You could perform the same function with a thickness sander but, you'd have to make a lot of passes and potentially waste a perfectly good piece of sandpaper.

 

As I mentioned the thickness sander is primarily used for finishing to get a smooth consistent finish across the entire surface of the wood. Where you would want to use the thickness sander for dimensioning wood is if you're milling your own wood strips for a model and you're trying to square up extremely thin pieces of wood (where you don't want to remove a lot of wood).

 

Hope this helps.

[rtropp]

Clark,

thanks for the explanation.  It makes it very clear.

 

Richard

[flying_dutchman2]

Marc, there could be several issues that cause the scroll saw and bandsaw blades to wander off track. One of them is force feeding the wood into the blade and not allowing it to cut at its natural pace.

I tend to do this and have to catch myself that I am in no rush. The other thing I read in a scroll saw magazine is that once you have attached your template to the wood is to use clear packing tape and cover the whole piece of wood. The tape lubricates the saw and I have noticed there is less sawdust.

 

This of course has to do with the quality of the blade. When ever possible try to use double skip tooth blades.

Blades I use most of the time are Skip Tooth-12.5 TPI, and Crown Tooth-16TPI. For fret work I use Spiral - 41TPI and Reverse Tooth-28TPI. All Olson blades. I will look for the Double Skip tooth blades.

 

The Olson sheet provided as a pdf shows how to round off the back of the blade to improve its performance and prevent wander. This does not need be anything complicated you can use an emery board, a file or even sandpaper for metal. Give it a try.

Best regards

Roman

Will do the rounding of the blade and thank you Roman for the education.

Marc

 

To other readers on this thread, my apologies for going slightly off-topic.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Marcus Botanicus

[fletch944t]

As far as I'm concerned, no need to apologize Marc. I have only been a member of MSW for a very short period of time. But, I've learned as much or more from this thread as I have from any thread since I've been a member. The great thing is, a lot of it will enhance my woodworking skills outside of ship modeling. Ironically, one of the reasons it has been so informative is the fact that it has NOT stuck strictly to the original topic.

 

I can't speak for the OP but, as long as I'm learning something new, it doesn't bother me to stray from the topic.

[shihawk]

As the origin of this topic please feel free to keep this going , I know nothing about the variuos types of saws and am interested to learn anything i can , so i repeat feel free to voice all opinions and views they are of interest to all  .

 

Cheers Boyd

[dgbot]

When the conference was in Chicago I was helping with security and giving the vendors a hand I bought the Byrnes saw at a good discount.  I was able to cut much of the big stuff I had at work. But they frown on using company tools for private use. Insurance and liability problems.  All I had was a Preac. which is my primary saw. at the scale I work at.  I by rough finished lumber and use the Byrnes to break it down to manageable dimensions for my Preac.  I like having both and the Preac is the main saw I use for all my small stuff.  I do not like changing blades.  I usually get tools as they are needed.  As my budget is on the tight side and I am called cheap.  But if you plan on scratch building or kit basing you will use it allot depending on the size and scale you are working in.  I also have a Sherline lathe which gathers dust but is invaluable when you need a turning or doing complex parts.  On it I have machined, turned, and used a file on several parts on my Latham.  when not in use it will accumulate dust.  I also have a mill I pcked up from a member who was leaving the hobby and did not need it anymore and since I am not using at the present it is n loan to a friend.  I have also used it as needed when I was making parts.  But I can work without it just taking more time and imagination.  Am I a tool freak yea and no.  I like having tools but I do not gt them unless they make the job easier.  I would like to spring for a resistance soldering machine.  But the time it would save me is not much so why throw away money.  I am not in a race and have done much of my work with my hands and non power tools. money.  A small band saw yes.  So long as it is a decent one and those are not cheap.  Ed has a couple in his work shop and told me that the craftsman blade is difficult to keep aligned.  Because the wheel is round and not flat.  But I will wait until I get back to my place and have a stash again before I do anything else.  What I will spring for is a good solid chisel or a plane if it is good. Half the chore is learning how to take care of them and how to use them.  I have als purchased wood that I have not use for later.  Since I will be here for the foreseeable future. I have added to my tool box from Amazon and Ebay.  Are the tools pricey but are they keepers yes.  Always buy the best that you can afford they will last a long time and will be easier to use.  Also listen to recommendations and reviews, these will let you know if you are getting a lemon.  The Byrnes' saw is not a lemon but a great investment.  I also have a Foredom and drill attachment.  I have used it several times and with the drill press for drilling and very light milling.  I have seen many models over the years that were superb and the builders used nothing more than hand tools.  Power tools are for operations that will take a great deal of time and save you the hassle of redoing a part then go ahead and get it. But if yu are going to get them just because everyone has them then you do not really need them.  Save your money and space and invest it in the best tool you have.  Your mind and your hands.

David B

[Roman]

How do the Proxxon Planer and the Byrnes Thickness Sander compliment each other.  ( thought they did the same thing but with different approach, blade vs sandpaper??)

 

Richard

 

 

The question is still out there!

[GLakie]

The question is still out there!

I think someone earlier addressed this but I'll chime in. The planer is good for getting stock down close to the desired thickness and the thickness sander will bring it down the rest of the way and at the same time put a sanded smoother finish on it. Also the planer will flatten out slightly warped wood.

 

Cheers 

Edited December 11, 2014 by GLakie

[WackoWolf]

dgbot has said it the best that can be said. Just my 2 cents worth. And yes I am a tool nut to the day I am no longer here.

[Roman]

I think someone earlier addressed this but I'll chime in. The planer is good for getting stock down close to the desired thickness and the thickness sander will bring it down the rest of the way and at the same time put a sanded smoother finish on it. Also the planer will flatten out slightly warped wood.

 

 

George, you are correct and I did not notice the previous reply to this question given by Clark.... I must clarify a misunderstanding about planers. Despite its name the sole purpose of a planer (not a hand plane) to clarify, is to make two surfaces parallel to each other while cleaning up the 2nd face of the stock. If the bottom surface is warped or slightly warped the upper surface although surface planed, will conform to the bottom surface warp after the feed & out feed rollers release their pinch. The tool that has the ability to true up the surface and remove the warp is the Jointer. On the jointer you would normally flatten or true one face and one edge, once that is done you can run the stock thru the Planer and both surfaces or faces will be theoretically flat and parallel.  That is the reason I posted earlier the pictures of the Jointer and the Bandsaw. The thickness sander Byrnes or any other behaves the same as the Planer. At least one surface must be true and flat for the lumber to be sanded to the desired dimension. To me, the Byrnes sander picks up where the planer reaches its limitations; that is stock thickness and finish quality. I am sure you have heard the comment from machinists and engineers: "with a Milling Machine you can do anything"! Similar holds true for the Bandsaw and the Jointer combined.

 

Respectfully

Roman

Edited December 11, 2014 by Roman

[NHDave]

A well fettled and well sharpened hand plane will true the surface of stock (especially the size being managed to produce model size timber) as well (actually better in many instances) than a jointer. One thing to avoid, for safety's sake, with a full size jointer, planer, or table saw is trying to mill small pieces. The other caution with power tools. One small slip or bobble can destroy a lot of valuable wood. I own several power routers but actually prefer hand tools for final work to avoid just that scenario.

 

Dave

[flying_dutchman2]

My wife used to do lots of woodwork and I inherited the router & router table & planer/jointer (both from SEARS and older models). I use the router all the time and over time have purchased all types of bits to see what the cuts look like and which ones will be useful for me.

 

The planer/jointer is a scary machine.

Long flat metal table with a big cylindrical cutting blade. I tried it outside after reading all the safety and instructions. Held the wood down hard with a 2 by 4, slowly fed it over the blade and when it came to the edge of the stock it shot forward into the yard. Tried it a couple of different ways but in the end there were pieces of stock in the yard.

 

I do not get the jointer part. The instructions say little about that. Looked at all sides, can't figure it out.

 

Something else.

Was watching a YouTube vid on 3D ornaments (the end result was a very thin piece) and the person used a "Flying Dutchman blade - scroll revers FD-SR no 5"

measured at: 5" x 0.037" x 0.015", 13 TPI , 7 Rev.

 

Marc

Very thin blade and cut very smooth.

[dgbot]

Kick back is the main danger on a table saw and a joiner.  Ed has a 10 H.P. Craftsman in his work shop and he had a piece of wood kick back on him a couple of weeks ago.  I was in there at the time to ask him a question.  The piece went through the drywall and just missed the window of their new car.  He informed me that is why he uses push sticks and stands to the side at all times.  That bang made me jump and he said it was not the first time it happened.  One went out the door. and in to the driveway about 30 ft.

David B

[flying_dutchman2]

Today my daily mail from Woodcraft wants me to buy a Laguna 14-12 Band saw & get a FREE industrial floodlight for only about $1100.00. For that amount I can purchase a couple of Byrnes tools. :-)

Marc

[fletch944t]

I can't help but wonder if Byrnes has other machines in the works....

[Roman]

I can't help but wonder if Byrnes has other machines in the works....

Obviously I can't speak for the man but I visited Jim at his shop a few months ago and he is very busy producing the four machines he offers along with the many accessories not to mention the myriad of projects he has at hand, so you never know. For those that are not familiar with him he is as you would expect an excellent ship model maker if he does not mind me saying so. In my book he is a renaissance man. Every time I have come out to see him, he has always been very gracious and accommodating. I don't know but when I visit his shop, it is a pilgrimage for me. God knows send him your requests.

 

Roman

[dgbot]

He has a fantastic rope making machine that I have seen in action.  But alas at the scale I work at it would just gather dust as I use small line for my rigging. A thickness sander to die for with the HP and accuracy to not break down under a load.

David B

Edited December 12, 2014 by dgbot