Can i live without a BYRNES TABLE SAW

[DocBlake]

My Byrnes saw arrived today.  Early Christmas!

[GLakie]

George, you are correct and I did not notice the previous reply to this question given by Clark.... I must clarify a misunderstanding about planers. Despite its name the sole purpose of a planer (not a hand plane) to clarify, is to make two surfaces parallel to each other while cleaning up the 2nd face of the stock. If the bottom surface is warped or slightly warped the upper surface although surface planed, will conform to the bottom surface warp after the feed & out feed rollers release their pinch. The tool that has the ability to true up the surface and remove the warp is the Jointer. On the jointer you would normally flatten or true one face and one edge, once that is done you can run the stock thru the Planer and both surfaces or faces will be theoretically flat and parallel.  That is the reason I posted earlier the pictures of the Jointer and the Bandsaw. The thickness sander Byrnes or any other behaves the same as the Planer. At least one surface must be true and flat for the lumber to be sanded to the desired dimension. To me, the Byrnes sander picks up where the planer reaches its limitations; that is stock thickness and finish quality. I am sure you have heard the comment from machinists and engineers: "with a Milling Machine you can do anything"! Similar holds true for the Bandsaw and the Jointer combined.

 

Respectfully

Roman

I should have been a little more clear about my very short explanation of the planer and whether or not the board was warped laterally, because a planer will flatten the board, depending on which way it's warped. But you're right about a jointer being the best way to start.

 

Cheers

[GLakie]

My Byrnes saw arrived today.  Early Christmas!

I'll get to do that same "Happy Dance" in the first week of January. A belated Christmas present to myself. 

 

Cheers 

[fletch944t]

DocBlake, what was the turn around time on your order? I ordered a table saw from Jim a couple of weeks ago and I'm hoping it arrives before Christmas.

 

My wife and I don't normally give each other Christmas presents. We normally take a trip immediately after Christmas and shop for each other during the trip. That way we're ensured of getting exactly what we want. The other day my wife became upset when she found out I had bought her something to go under the tree this year. She scolded me and said she didn't have anything for me for Christmas. I told her "Yes you do. You just haven't seen it yet."

 

Fletch

[shihawk]

Now you guys really have me confused , Can i do the same on a good band saw  as i can on a table saw plus a bit more ?????   Is a table saw the best for ripping fine strips or can this also be done easily on a band saw ,fine meaning 0.5mm ???

[Roman]

Now you guys really have me confused , Can i do the same on a good band saw  as i can on a table saw plus a bit more ?????   Is a table saw the best for ripping fine strips or can this also be done easily on a band saw ,fine meaning 0.5mm ???

Don't be confused, all of this is food for thought. If all you want to do is cut strips from s4s (surfaced four sides) stock the table saw is the easiest to do that task with. If you are buying rough lumber, then you will need a tool to surface the stock. Please don't let any of this make you think that you need a warehouse full of tools to do ship modeling. As Dave mentioned before a well fettled hand plane and patience will take you there. 

 

As an example, in my situation I like working with Loquat (Japanese Plum). This wood is very common in Tampa where I live but not commercially available so I have to keep an eye out for fallen limbs or cut trees to harvest. In other words I am working with trunk or limbs 4" to 12" diameter initially. These will have to be cut into manageable 2"x6"x24" from a log once dry. This task is not suitable for a table saw but easily handled by a bandsaw or a handsaw if you so desire; from this point you still have to plane two surfaces one to lay flat on the table saw and the other to run along the saw fence in order to get somewhat accurate strips.

 

Roman

Edited December 12, 2014 by Roman

[DocBlake]

Fletch:  Turnaround time was about three weeks from the day I ordered the saw until the day of delivery.  You'll have a merry Christmas! 

 

Dave

[flying_dutchman2]

I can't help but wonder if Byrnes has other machines in the works....

Yes, he does. At the NRG Conference in St. Louis he showed a proto type of one of those little tables that has a small sanding band sticking out. (I can google it, but I am lazy). He will probably sell the table and you can hook up your Dremel with a sanding bands attached in the vertical position. Only the newer Dremel Tools will work. My 10 yr old one will not.

 

His tools are made of quality materials, does what you want it to do and aesthetically pleasing to the eye. No short cuts to make the tool.

Marc

[flying_dutchman2]

I like working with Loquat (Japanese Plum).  

Roman

Now that is delicious fruit as well.

 

Yesterday it was dry and cold (I do all this work outside as it gets rather dusty in the garage, even if the shop vac is attached to the tool) I followed your advice from sanding the edges of the scroll saw blade and it works like a charm. Did some fret work and purposely designed some tight corners and it came out clean. Thank You.

 

Still researching a band saw and a table saw.

This is what I want to do. Make straight cuts. Which is where both tools are good for but with a band saw you can do curves as well.

I don't rip wood, I buy "ready made" and I have numerous sources for that and eBay is a great place to get that as well.

 

I saw that rope making machine up close at one of our club meets and it does the job. Then I see Chuck at the conference using an off the shelf drill and does a great job as well. I purchase all my rigging material from him. Best choice I made.

 

Marc

[flying_dutchman2]

Despite its name the sole purpose of a planer (not a hand plane) to clarify, is to make two surfaces parallel to each other while cleaning up the 2nd face of the stock. If the bottom surface is warped or slightly warped the upper surface although surface planed, will conform to the bottom surface warp after the feed & out feed rollers release their pinch.

 

The tool that has the ability to true up the surface and remove the warp is the Jointer. On the jointer you would normally flatten or true one face and one edge, once that is done you can run the stock thru the Planer and both surfaces or faces will be theoretically flat and parallel.

 

The Byrnes sander picks up where the planer reaches its limitations; that is stock thickness and finish quality. "with a Milling Machine you can do anything"! Similar holds true for the Bandsaw and the Jointer combined.

 

Respectfully

Roman

Again, Thank you for this explanation. You are very knowledgeable on this subject. I know I will post more questions on this thread.

 

Last paragraph. I have used a Scroll saw for about 4 years and I have done so much with it. I improvised on creating fences to get a straight cut. It works but have bin thinking and looking at band saws. I also need to research a milling machine. Need to understand all it can do.

 

Marc

[Roman]

Again, Thank you for this explanation. You are very knowledgeable on this subject. I know I will post more questions on this thread.

 

Last paragraph. I have used a Scroll saw for about 4 years and I have done so much with it. I improvised on creating fences to get a straight cut. It works but have bin thinking and looking at band saws. I also need to research a milling machine. Need to understand all it can do.

 

Marc

 

Marc, you used a word that is key to using all tools. Understand! while participating in this blog I realize that there are many modelers out there who do not have full size tools nor are they required to do the job, many are not even interested in them. Understanding the capabilities and the limitations of all tools is essential, be it powered or hand. I do not know any more than the next guy about tools but since I owned a shop with two dozen plus employees I had to be on a constant vigil so no one got hurt, and no one ever did. I am certainly not going to feed 3mm x 1.5mm strips thru a jointer of any kind even the little Proxxon, but I am in the interest of time going to feed 2"x6"x24" thru my Jointer once all the safety precautions have been taken. This is one of the reasons that make Byrnes tools so good. They are scaled for scale down work. Make no mistakes, all tools are dangerous including hand tools. They should be understood and respected but not feared. Have fun with them. After all most of the fun of ship modeling is the journey.

 

Roman

Edited December 12, 2014 by Roman

[dgbot]

I new a guy who was doing some handwork on a cabinet he was working on.  He was using a low angle plane for some finishing on the ends  and was having too much trouble getting it to go through.  I found out that he was trying to hog the material out instead of shaving it a big no no.  Needless to say he put his left hand on the wood and shoved  the plane went through the wood and into his left hand.  A photo would have turned your stomach.  It went to the bone and road it deep into the palm of his hand.  After cleaning and applying a pressure bandage I got him to the emergency room.  He went through muscles and tendons.  And to this day he has limited use of his hand.  It could have been worse.  This took place about 15 years ago.  That was when I really started treating hand tools with a great deal of respect  including utility knives and xactos.  Please always be careful when you use any edged tool.

My anti-cut gloves have already saved me a few visits plus being alert and aware of what you are doing.

David B

Edited December 12, 2014 by dgbot

[Nirvana]

An anti-cut glove for USD 20-50 is certainly a very cheap insurance, versus all the other issues that otherwise can happen.

[dgbot]

And a surprise trip to the ER can get expensive.  Ben there done that.

David B

[rtropp]

regarding planer / jointer and how to live without one.

 

I found two interesting videos on YouTube.  I was wondering what our more experienced members thought of them. 

 

The first is how to build and use a table saw jig to flatten and edge a board.

 

 

the next one show how to flatten and dimension rough boards by hand. It looks pretty straight forward but I suspect the tools would cost almost as much as a planer/jointer.

 

 

Richard

[GLakie]

Oh to have the room and my shop again! 

 

Cheers 

[NHDave]

Like any hobby, you don't need to start with every hand tool. To flatten the board by hand, you could start with a #5 Stanley with a couple of additional blades. There were thousands of those planes made and can be picked up very reasonably.

 

Dave

[fletch944t]

Well. Christmas arrived early. My Byrnes table saw was delivered yesterday evening. However, did not get to unbox and set it up till late this afternoon.

 

I must admit that I was a little apprehensive about spending $500+ on a small table saw. Especially, when I can get a good 10" table saw for slightly more (and eventually will). However, after using the Byrnes saw for the very first time, I'm a believer. I used it to start cutting parts for a table saw cutting sled and it is nothing short of fantastic. I now find myself thinking back over all the projects I've done over the years that I wish I'd had the Byrnes saw (projects before I got back into ship modeling).

 

Also, my wood from the Constitution arrived yesterday. So, after the sled is completed, the next project the Byrnes saw will see is cutting and dimensioning wood from the Constitution to construct the keel for my build. I'm actually going to need the sled to dimension the wood from the Constitution. Otherwise, I'd already be working on the keel.

 

Fletch  

[mikeaidanh]

Question !. "Can you live without a Byrnes saw" ?

Yes.

Question 2. "why would you want to"?

[Bob Blarney]

Hmm, everybody should remember that very fine work was, and will be, done without electrically powered tools.  

Here's a handtool jig that I made last summer when my arm was broken and in a cast. (I couldn't use my '59 DeWalt radial arm saw safely.)  It's for cutting slots in the fingerboard of musical instruments, and it works so well that I'm thinking about making a new iteration for mitering and beveling.  It's quiet, doesn't create dustclouds, and cuts precisely.  I would think that if you  adapted my idea, then you'd have a very fine saw for ship modeling.

 

http://www.mimf.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=3378

Edited December 14, 2014 by Bob Blarney

[fletch944t]

Thanks for that Bob. This thread really has peaked my interest in the Japanese saws. It would appear that for quality saws you're looking at the $75-125 range (depending on the type of saw). Is that correct? Or am I looking in the wrong places?

 

When I was in the local hardware store the other day, I noticed that Irwin is marketing a Ryoba and Dozuki saw that are inexpensive (relatively speaking). I'm wondering if they're worth spending the money on just to give them a try. However, Irwin doesn't call them by their actual name. In fact, they don't even refer to them as Asian or Japanese saws.

 

From a lot of the comments I'm seeing on MSW, it would appear that there are more than a few luthiers who are also ship models. I find that very interesting although I'm not really surprised. Seems like a natural progression.

 

Fletch

[flying_dutchman2]

Here's a handtool jig that I made last summer when my arm was broken and in a cast. It's quiet, doesn't create dustclouds, and cuts precisely.  I would think that if you  adapted my idea, then you'd have a very fine saw for ship modeling.

Bob,

Thanks for the information. Since reading this thread I have researched Japanese saws and I am seriously thinking of getting one or two. What I see around the NET there is so much you can do with it.

Marc

[flying_dutchman2]

Japanese saws.

Any recommendations for cutting hard and soft wood.

Like any blade I am assuming it has to do with TPI (teeth per inch), the more there are the finer the cut.

Brand name. What is good and decent? I understand that "you get what you pay for".

I usually spend more towards the top notch than the cheap stuff.

 

Band saws:

Last club meeting there is a member who has a table band saw. He likes it and does everything with it.

Told me that of I have the money invest in one.

Anyone on this thread have one?

Recommend a brand?

 

Any advice is appreciated.

Marc

[cwboland]

Marc

 

Most tabletop bandsaws are 9 or 10" throat depth and suitable for our purposes.  Many can be found in the sub $200 range at most building supply stores (IE Lowes and HD).  I would recommend doing your research and picking one that suits your needs and matches your price range.

[GLakie]

By "table" band saws, are you referring to the ones that are not hand-held? If so, the type or size would depend on what exactly you want to do with it. For my purposes, a 10" is big enough since any re-saw work that I do is going to be smaller-scale for making billets I'll need for modeling and small jobs around the apartment.  

 

Cheers 

[fletch944t]

Hey George. Although you see the term "table top" or "bench top" applied to many different power tools (most commonly table saws and band saws), it is a bit of a misnomer.

 

Frequently, you'll see anything that's mounted on a stand classified as a "permanent" or "stationary" tool. However, if you look at some of the advertisements on line, you'll see the EXACT same saw marketed as both table top and stationary. The only difference is they slap a stand on it to classify it as stationary.

 

I've always thought of "stationary" equipment as something you couldn't move around easily. But, if you check out Sears, some of their largest band saws and table saws which are on stands also have wheels on them and can be moved around with little effort.

 

So, I guess you have to take the term table top with a grain of salt. Yes, I'd personally consider a 9" or 10" band saw a table top model. And yes, I've seen 9" and 10" band saws marketed as both. But heck, using the logic of some of these marketing folks, I could take my 12" compound miter saw off it's rolling stand, slap it on my work bench, and call it a table top saw.

 

Sorry, I'll get off my soapbox now. Just venting a little in preparation for the holiday season.

 

Fletch

Edited December 17, 2014 by fletch944t

[Bob Blarney]

Hi again.  Just so we're all clear about it, I don't have any prejudice against power tools, but I've found that handtools are especially handy for smaller tasks, and many times are safer too.  And they don't blow sawdust all over the place.

 

As for the japanese saws, the Vaughan saws are quite good.   Have a look at the site here, and also notice the 'Perfect Guide' on the last page. I picked up a returned one (with the saw too) on Amazon for $25.  It works very well for finish carpentry such as moldings.  I think I'm going to modify it with the magnetic tape too because it will make it easier to use and reduce the chance of damaging the sawblade.

 

http://www.vaughanmfg.com/shopping/Departments/Bear-Saw-Hand-Saws.aspx?sortorder=1&page=1

 

You can also get a nice little saw from Harbor Freight, current for $9.  I like this one very much for small work:

 

http://www.harborfreight.com/12-in-flush-cut-saw-39273.html

Edited December 16, 2014 by Bob Blarney

[Twister]

Twister;

I checked out your built of your 1:28 Scale J class yacht 'Enterprise' (R/C). That is a slick boat. Love the lines. I'll be following that one. I purchased a Soling 1 meter R/C boat from one of my club members who was no longer able to build models.

 

Is it scratch? Where did you get the plans?

 

Marc

Apologies for the delay in replying - to answer your questions in order, 1) Yes it is a scratch build & 2) Plans are available from http://www.nonsolovele.com/PLANS%20&%20MODELS%20CD/DIOLAITI%20Claudio/Vintage%20e%20JClass/Enterprise%206167g.zip about halfway down the page listed under 'J Class'. It's a zip file with various PDF documents including full size frames to print out. The drawings were done specifically for R/C so have been modified with approximately 2" of additional draft to improve the ballast position and hence Righting Moment. To further assist R/M the sail plan has also been adjusted to 90% of scale size.

 

Hope that helps,

 

Regards,

 

Row

[captainbob]

I have a 9” Ryobi band saw.  It has guide rollers both above and below the table, three each.  I think it’s great.   In Manufacturing we were always told Buy a machine that will do 25% more than you think you need and you will find that within a year you will use it all.

 

Bob

[flying_dutchman2]

By "table" band saws, are you referring to the ones that are not hand-held? If so, the type or size would depend on what exactly you want to do with it. For my purposes, a 10" is big enough since any re-saw work that I do is going to be smaller-scale for making billets I'll need for modeling and small jobs around the apartment.  

 

Cheers 

I should have been more clear at what I said. Table-Band saw would be a band saw that I could screw into my work bench or put on top of a table that has wheels. I would be using this to rip wood (the amount of wood I come across is amazing). I would use it mainly for ship building and what I can't do on a scroll saw.

 

As for the Japanese saws, the Vaughan saws are quite good.

Thanks for the links

 

Marc