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Now that I have my Byrne's disk sander it has become obvious to me that dust and its pitfulls needs to be sorted. Not to mention I share the workshop with the admirals glass making.

 

What do others use for their dust extraction? Currently it is only dust that is my concern but I am sure chips will be creates in due course.

 

Regards

Ian

Ian

 

Still Sane? who knows, who cares

 

Current Build Panart deck section

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I'm low dollar on my solution.... a shop vac that gets moved from one tool to another.. Others used a bigger system with hard piping, etc.

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

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Might add to the shop vac system, another home grown system that uses a fan to circulate the air in the room. Place a furnace filter inside a shroud to force the fan discharge or intake through that filter, then clean or change often. That should trap most of the dust that the vacuum can't get. You might even find that running the home grown system, when the vac is not needed, has it's advantages.

jud

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I hook up a self built cyclone separator between the dust/chip prodiuction site and the vacuum. This saves me dust bags (none at all needed) and keeps fine dust filters (if present) from clogging up too quickly.

 

I built my cyclone according to the scaleable plans of Bill Pentz's model (for those interested in building one: it helps a lot to read Bill's build-instructions on his website here and here).  Its geometry is well calculated and the cyclone is very effective. But there are also simpler models of separators (less effective, let more fine particles through to the filter), like for example the Thien baffle Matthias Wandel shows here.

 

I took this picture of my cyclone a few years ago. Now the cyclone and the shop vac sit on a plywood board with 4 small swiveling wheels

post-15481-0-19815100-1414161007_thumb.jpg

- Markus

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My even more low dollar solution--I do major cutting and sanding either outside or in the garage because you're right, the dust gets everywhere!

Tom

 

 

Current: Sergal Sovereign of the Seas

Previous builds:  AL Swift, AL King of the Mississippi, Mamoli Roter Lowe, Amati Chinese Junk, Caesar, Mamoli USS Constitution, Mantua HMS Victory, Panart San Felipe, Mantua Sergal Soleil Royal

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I have my workshop in my basement utility room.  I have a shop vac attached to my Byrnes power tools, and recently bought this Rikon air filter which was on a big sale recently at Woodcraft:

 

http://www.woodcraft.com/product/857601/RIKON%203Speed%20Air%20Cleaner%20with%20Remote%20Control%20Model%2062100.aspx

 

 

I know that you are in the UK, but maybe they have a comparable product.  This unit is made to sit on your workbench or suspended from the ceiling.  I have limited bench space, so this weekend I hung it from hooks screwed into the joists in my utility room's ceiling.  The shop vac does a good job of pulling out most of the wood dust, but I feel better knowing that the filter should hopefully take out the very small dust particles that the shop vac didn't get.

 

As Jud said, you can make your own as well. :)

Mike

 

Current Wooden builds:  Amati/Victory Pegasus  MS Charles W. Morgan  Euromodel La Renommèe  

 

Plastic builds:    SB2U-1 Vindicator 1/48  Five Star Yaeyama 1/700  Pit Road Asashio and Akashi 1/700 diorama  Walrus 1/48 and Albatross 1/700  Special Hobby Buffalo 1/32  Eduard Sikorsky JRS-1 1/72  IJN Notoro 1/700  Akitsu Maru 1/700

 

Completed builds :  Caldercraft Brig Badger   Amati Hannah - Ship in Bottle  Pit Road Hatsuzakura 1/700   Hasegawa Shimakaze 1:350

F4B-4 and P-6E 1/72  Accurate Miniatures F3F-1/F3F-2 1/48  Tamiya F4F-4 Wildcat built as FM-1 1/48  Special Hobby Buffalo 1/48

Citroen 2CV 1/24 - Airfix and Tamiya  Entex Morgan 3-wheeler 1/16

 

Terminated build:  HMS Lyme (based on Corel Unicorn)  

 

On the shelf:  Euromodel Friedrich Wilhelm zu Pferde; Caldercraft Victory; too many plastic ship, plane and car kits

 

Future potential scratch builds:  HMS Lyme (from NMM plans); Le Gros Ventre (from Ancre monographs), Dutch ship from Ab Hoving book, HMS Sussex from McCardle book, Philadelphia gunboat (Smithsonian plans)

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All those are good ideas. Han I was planning my workspace I knew I have to install a good dust collection system. So each of my machines is piped thorough the duct work to the machine. When a gate is opened on the system the collector automatically comes on. I also installed two ambient dust collectors like Mike has (Delta brand on mine) and they recall the air in the shop to remove fine dust that did not get sucked into the collector. 

 

The cyclone certainly makes the shop cleaner since it removed the majority of the dust created when using a tool. However it is the fine particulate that does not get removed since it leaves the blade while it is away from the cyclones suction that causes the most issues for health as well as the fine dust that collect on everything. Ambient collectors go a great deal forward in removing that from the air. 

 

On mine, I can set them on three different speeds and a timer so they can be turned on and continue to run after I leave the shop. The cyclone runs while the tools is running. The ambient collectors continue to run after until the dust is no longer in the air. Together each part of the DC system operate well and keep the dust to a minimum. 

 

One other thing to keep in mind, While PVC makes easy work of running a pipe between the Shop vacuum system and a tool, it also creates it's own hazard. As the dust moves through it a high speed it creates a static charge. Under the right conditions this static can cause s spark that can ignite the dust in the system. Running a ground wire through the pipe end to end solves this problem.

Bill

Chantilly, VA

 

Its not the size of the ship, but the bore of the cannon!

 

Current Build: Scratch Build Brig Eagle

 

Completed Build Log: USS Constitution - Mamoli

Completed Build Gallery: USS Constitution - Mamoli

 

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A well designed cyclone lets about 10% of the smaller than 5 micron sized particles through to the filter. Of course, no dust collection system will deal with the dust it did not capture, regardless if hooking up or not a cyclone between the machinery and the blower / shop vac. This sounds trivial, but picking up the dust right where it has been produced is essential (as close as possible to where the blade tip or sandpaper makes contact with the wood).

 

Since dust collection does not get more efficient than the design of the hood is, there is still o lot of room for improvement there (more openly speaking, it is generally a very poor design. The older, and also the smaller the machine is, the worse the design regarding dust pickup is, Proxxon, Byrnes and similar saws are no exception. Festool claims to have better dust collection but they don't make many (or any) tool really fitted for model making, and I don't know how much better they really are, but they seem to be better designed than other hand held powertools. Also Saw Stop also seems to have done an excellent job there. (I'm not affiliated with any of the mentioned companies).

 

By the way, static discharge igniting dust in a small scale dust collection systems (leave alone a shopvac based system) is one of those dust collection myths (you may want to read this here). And in any case, grounding a PVC pipe is simply not possible, you can put a wire in the tubing but it will have no effect.

 

One real danger of dust ignition though lies in the dust bin, not in the ducting of small scale dust collectors with 6"-ish ducts: when cutting through let's say a nail and the glowing debris lands in the dust bin you'd better not walk away when you believe the job is done. But then again, with small machinery as it gets typically used in model ship building this is very unlikely going to be a point of interest (I don't remember having ever used wood with nails in it when working on small projects).

Edited by nobotch

- Markus

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Interesting on the PVC. I actually have a fine dust filter that filters the air leaving my cyclone to .5 Micron. When I installed my system ( well over 10 years now) I decided to put spiral metal ductwork in. Primarily because of the throughput since it is a larger circumference, but also because it was stronger than standard metal ducting.Outside of the Cyclone, I have Delta air handlers that filter ambient air down to 1 Micron. I have two hanging in the workshop since it is long and narrow. Each is set to change the air in a 20x20' room up to 18 times per hour. 

 

Also, since sanding is one of the worst culprits for dust, I have a 4'x3' sanding table that I can hook into the dust control system that pulls a strong downdraft on the top. So I can place the object I am sanding on the table and the dust is all sucked downward and into the cyclone.

 

My biggest concern with my shop was it is in deep the basement of our house so any dust that escapes would find itself throughout the house. I way overbuild the dust collection system so I could counter that. So far it has worked like a charm.

Edited by robnbill

Bill

Chantilly, VA

 

Its not the size of the ship, but the bore of the cannon!

 

Current Build: Scratch Build Brig Eagle

 

Completed Build Log: USS Constitution - Mamoli

Completed Build Gallery: USS Constitution - Mamoli

 

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Bill, it looks like you have a very reasonable dustcollection setup. Bigger ducting cross section is goos as long as the blower can keep up delivering a high enough airflow speed in the "fat tubes". I don't think that you can have any overkill at all on dust collection. The big problem with dust is that we only really discover protection is not good enough when it is already too late. Those ambient air filters are a great addition, but they can not replace dust collection right at the machine or even better "at the blade".

- Markus

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Agreed. I learned my lesson years ago cutting Cocobolo without proper dust and respiratory protection. Now I can't use that wood at all. Luckily the Hardwood store bought back the wood I had not used yet. This was my old house shop so my partner had to actually clean and wipe everything down before I could go back into it. I had become highly allergic to it.

 

So when I was building this shop out I actually had engineers at Penn State Industries  design the dust collection system. You are absolutely correct that too large of ducting with an underpowered motor would not work. There are also losses of suction at every bend and fitting due to friction within the system, so I looked to the professionals to help me with my system. They called my shop the bowling alley because it is long and narrow. 

 

Since the system is fully ducted throughout my shop, I also have drops that are sweeps so I can sweep the dust on the floor into them. I also have 4" flexible hose that connects to rolling sweeps and handheld to assist in cleaning around the benches and under saws where the dust still manages to slip by.

 

Penn Industries was great to work with and their design has worked well. I just installed the Sawstop with their under and overhead dust collection. They claim the high 90's  in collection. I will know once I start cutting the wood for the Eagle but that is a bit out since I am working on the rigging on my Connie now.

Edited by robnbill

Bill

Chantilly, VA

 

Its not the size of the ship, but the bore of the cannon!

 

Current Build: Scratch Build Brig Eagle

 

Completed Build Log: USS Constitution - Mamoli

Completed Build Gallery: USS Constitution - Mamoli

 

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you can also reduce the dust spreading by just hanging some plastic sheeting  around the sanding/dust generating station(s).   even some shower curtains and shower curtain rods hung from the ceiling then have your shop vac running inside that plastic off area.  don't like looking for the opening in the plastic,  heavier mil plastic and cut in strips, making something like they use in walk in freezers.  Doesn't cut out all the spread of dust but can really reduce it, and its cheap to set up.

 

**edited**  oh if the plastic 'floats' around,  tape some heavy washers ( or anything with weight) to the bottom edges

Edited by Grimber

Current Build Log(s):

-Swift Virginia Pilot Boat 1805- Artesania Latina 1985 no sails kit.  My first wooden ship build.

Carrack - Woodkrafter Kits

 

Completed Build Log(s):

-Pirate Ship- Woodkrafter Kits Ship in a Bottle - First ship in a bottle kit build.

-The Secret Revealed Boat in a Bottle Kit- Authentic Models - Ship In Bottle

 

On the Shelf to build:

- Build a Ship in a Bottle Kit - Authentic Models

- The Chesapeake Bay Flattie - Midwest Products

- Armistad 1832 - Serial Modellbau

- San Gabriele 1497 - Serial Modellbau

- Clara May English Ketch - Artesania Latina

- Santa Maria - Scientific

- Margaretha - Tris Model

- Paranzella - Tris Model

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if you want to do it fancy/professional you can get one of the slider tracks for the ceiling and the wire shower curtain loops .  hook them into the track sliders and then hang your heavy mil plastic.  would be like one of them privacy divider curtains they use in the hospital you can push back when not sanding.

Edited by Grimber

Current Build Log(s):

-Swift Virginia Pilot Boat 1805- Artesania Latina 1985 no sails kit.  My first wooden ship build.

Carrack - Woodkrafter Kits

 

Completed Build Log(s):

-Pirate Ship- Woodkrafter Kits Ship in a Bottle - First ship in a bottle kit build.

-The Secret Revealed Boat in a Bottle Kit- Authentic Models - Ship In Bottle

 

On the Shelf to build:

- Build a Ship in a Bottle Kit - Authentic Models

- The Chesapeake Bay Flattie - Midwest Products

- Armistad 1832 - Serial Modellbau

- San Gabriele 1497 - Serial Modellbau

- Clara May English Ketch - Artesania Latina

- Santa Maria - Scientific

- Margaretha - Tris Model

- Paranzella - Tris Model

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I saw a shop like Grimber describes except they used a damp bedsheet. Not soaking, just sprayed lightly with a spray bottle.  I've also seen this used in paint shops for cars.

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

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