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Louie da fly
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Everything posted by Louie da fly
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Not even a whipstaff - they don't seem to have come in until the 17th century. Which makes it a bit baffling - did they really just yell down to the helmsman which way to steer (because he couldn't see from where he was)? Chidokan, be a bit cautious with how far past the front of the carriage those "built-up" guns stick out - the watercolour from the 19th century recoveries shows the barrel only sticking out a short way - which is understandable - the barrel wouldn't have had all that much structural integrity and cantilevering it too far out without support would have imposed unnecessary forces on it. I envy you having your built-up barrels ready made; I had to make all mine by hand - not an easy job. It's a bit of a shame your pic of the fighting top didn't come out too well, but I found some good ones by doing a Google image search, which I hope are of use to you: Safetman, the Grace Dieu was from Henry V's time not Henry VI, launched in 1418, so over 100 years before the Mary Rose and the Henry Grace a Dieu (unfortunately the names are a bit confusing). However, your comments are still valid regarding the forecastle being a high platform for archers - that still hadn't changed by Henry VIII's time, though his two ships were probably among the last to be built that way, as firearms were in the process of making longbows obsolete. Steven
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"I've had worse . . . "
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Keep in mind also that the Mayflower wasn't a new ship in 1620 - the first mention of her is in 1609 - she was what the pilgrims could afford - the main (deck?) beam broke in a storm on the trip over and had to be supported by a "great scrue" - (several accounts interpret this as the screw of a printing press, while others claim it was a "jackscrew" intended for use in the construction of houses). Steven
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Actually, the people he upset were the corrupt officials and landowners and members of the New South Wales Corps - the so-called Rum Corps, supposedly tasked with maintaining order in the penal colony but effectively gathering all power to themselves and their friends - "under the command of Major George Johnston, working closely with John Macarthur, deposed the Governor of New South Wales, William Bligh. Afterwards, the military ruled the colony, with the senior military officer stationed in Sydney acting as the lieutenant-governor of New South Wales until the arrival from Britain of Major-General Lachlan Macquarie as the new governor at the beginning of 1810." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rum_Rebellion) The Rum corps and its ex-officers (such as Macarthur) had a very cushy position, having pretty much monopolised all the good land, kept the population in subjection, and bribery and corruption were rife. In the absence of a proper currency, rum (the production of which was under their control) was used as a medium of exchange. Bligh tried to stop the corruption but was was overthrown by a conspiracy of the Rum Corps. When Macquarie came out from England he brought in his own Scottish regiment, disbanded the Rum corps, introduced a silver currency taken from Spanish coinage (a disc was cut from the centre of each coin - the central disc being one value and the remainder, called a "holey dollar" was a different value. It was in his term of office that the colony really got properly established on a firm footing. Steven
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Thanks everybody for the kind comments and the likes. Very much a learning experience, but I'm pretty happy with the way it's going. Steven
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Been adding the lower bank of oars, one at a time - I had to wait till the glue dried on each before I moved onto the next, because a whole lot of oars with wet glue would be too hard to keep aligned without messing each other up. So here we go: To get all the oars at the same angle, I'd previously drawn parallel pencil lines on a long piece of wood below decks and aligned the oars to the lines. Note that the faithful cat-food container has again proved its worth: But I couldn't do it that way on the other side, so I came up with what turned out to be a better way. Steven
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Thanks, Pat. It was very good to meet you at last after following your Victoria build for quite a long time and being very impressed with the quality of your work. Had a very good time just talking ship models. I'll be seeing you again for the Ship Model Society of Victoria meeting Wednesday week and I look forward to meeting the other members. Steven
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What a great build.Very nice work. What an amazing vehicle! Whatever possessed them to even think of it, much less put it into production? And yet must have been useful if the Germans took over and used captured ones. Stven
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Thanks, Kris - yes, the Yenikapi wrecks (along with prof Pryor's book Age of the Dromon) are the major source of information I've been using for my dromon model. All of the structure and much of the hull shape and details are based on the galley wreck YK2 and YK4 on pages 65-68. I've been in touch with Cemal Pulak who supervised these digs and he's been extremely helpful, answering questions and suggesting solutions to problems, and discussions of possible configurations for such things as the ramming spur at the bow, and the mast step (of which several have been recovered, but no-one's sure exactly how they worked). I've been amazed how helpful academics and archaeologists can be when a mere ship modeller gets in touch and asks for assistance. I think it's something to do with having a shared passion. Steven
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Good point, Carl. The dromon has a sort of cathead called, if I recall correctly, a peribolos, which wouldn't stand up to a chain being repeatedly pulled up over it - that's assuming that my interpretation of the contemporary picture is in fact a peribolos, and that it works the way I've made it. So, it looks like I won't be using chain . . . . Steven
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Good point, Carl. But with the anchors being so light ( the heaviest could probably be lifted by two people) it's likely they'd just pick it up chain and all and throw it into the sea. Maybe - a lot of speculation going on, I'm afraid. I'm not really fixated on having a chain. I'm just trying to work out whether it would be likely to have one, or just an anchor cable. If only on a linguistic basis, I'm still more inclined to go with just rope - the original Greek would better translated this way, and there are so many downsides to having a chain that I hadn't thought about but have been brought to my attention by this discussion. Steven
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Hang in there, Kris. You're actually making progress and finding out what works and what doesn't. Even if it may be a little frustrating for the time being it will stand you in good stead in the future. We've all been there and you'll find that as you gain more experience you'll cast aside what doesn't work and spend more of you time doing what does. I still make a hash of cutting out and have to cut everything rather too big and then trim down with knife and sandpaper (or more often a file in my case - I just feel more comfortable with a fine file than with sandpaper). Steven
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Absolutely beautiful work, Javier. Your wonderful, tiny models are always an inspiration. But I am interested in why you chose a scale of 1:210 rather than, say, 1:200. Steven
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I wasn't aware that any Viking anchors had been found with chains attached, but Googling it I found the following at https://www.vikingeskibsmuseet.dk/en/professions/education/viking-knowledge/the-longships/findings-of-longships-from-the-viking-age/ladby/ : Fascinating and enlightening as this is, unfortunately this just further complicates the issue - should I use chain or not? Aaargh! Given that the whole idea of dromons having an anchor chain comes solely from Pryor's interpretation of a rather vague reference to "iron-throwing rope", I think I'm probably better off just using rope, particularly in light of the comments above, plus the fact that from among a fair number of Viking anchors found, the Ladby ship has the only example with a chain. However, there is an article in the Mariner's Mirror of 1963 - Vol. 49 No. 1 by Honor Frost entitled "From Rope to Chain - on the Development of Anchors in the Mediterranean" which may cast some light on the issue. Does anyone have access to this? Steven
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On the other hand, the making of chains was certainly not beyond Byzantine technology. The entrance to the Golden Horn harbour in Constantinople was closed by a massive chain to keep enemy ships from entering. The chain was on a roller and could be slackened off in peacetime to allow the harbour to be used. That being said, that chain was at the limit of technology and the provision of anchor chains to individual ships could not be quality controlled to anything like the same degree. Steven
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Thanks for the likes and the encouraging comments (though what I see when I look at these anchors is the bits I got wrong . . .) The next thing to make for the anchors is the wooden stocks. One is already done - 4 more to make. Steven
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Yes, Christos. The more I read and the more I think about it, the more I think you're right and that I should be using rope rather than chain. The fact that the word "iron" (sidero-) in schoinia siderobola is part of the combined word "siderobola" rather than standing by itself or being combined with "rope" (schoinia) indicates to me that it's not the rope that's made of iron, but the thing which is thrown - the anchor. So perhaps it should better be translated as "iron (anchor)-throwing rope", or just "anchor cable". Speaking of throwing-irons, here they are painted matt black so they look like iron instead of brass. I think they look pretty good. Steven
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MDF = medium density fibreboard. Steven
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Makes sense - though isn't the Mediterranean tideless? However, Mediterranean storms can be very fierce and unpredictable - anchors fixed into the beach would help guard against them. Steven
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Okay; a 1 hundredweight anchor (112 pounds) is almost exactly 50 kg. One and a half hundredweight is 76 kg, one and 3/4 hundredweight is 89 kg and 2 hundredweight is 101 kg. A hundredweight can be lifted without too much trouble by someone who is strong and fit, and for people accustomed to heavy loads an anchor of that weight wouldn't be a problem. Two men (or perhaps only one) could lift an anchor twice that heavy. For some basis of comparison see Olympic weightlifting records at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Olympic_records_in_weightlifting - how relevant this is to mediaeval sailors I'm not sure - weightlifting isn't my forte). How effective an anchor of this weight would be in holding a dromon at its mooring is anybody's guess, but I'd assume several would be needed. On the other hand, it was customary for galleys to be pulled up on shore (backwards) overnight, so I'm not sure how much use anchors got. And for holding ground in a storm, well . . . galleys were very easily swamped at the best of times, so I don't know how much use the anchors would have been. Further and further into the unknown . . . Steven
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A wonderful job, Marcus! I can't wait to see her after second planking. She's going to be very beautiful. As an Australian, I find this build fascinating. My first history book when I was in primary school in Western Australia was called "Australia since 1606" and I heard all about the Dirk Hartog and de Vlamingh silver plates and I've since seen the latter one in the shipwreck Museum in Fremantle, along with the relics of the Batavia, Zuytdorp and Vergulde Draeck. And of course Rottnest Island and the Swan River where I grew up were named by Vlamingh. Steven
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That's the very same ship! The anchors I have made are based on the ones from that wreck. The only question is - are the anchors from a small commercial ship appropriate to a dromon of the same century? (I've assumed they are, but I could be wrong.) The archaeological report on the Serce Limani anchors goes into considerable detail (pages 219-220) to show that the anchors were of standardised dimensions, both in the length of the shank: . . . . and of arms: and that anchors were of standardised weights: The units above are (Christos, please correct me if I'm wrong) βασιλικη σπιθαμαι (basiliki spithamai = Imperial spans) δακτυλοί (daktyloi = fingers/inches), ποδης (podes = feet), λίτραί (litrai = ?), παλαιστρη (palaistrai = ?), My only problem now is that the weights above seem to conflict with what I've noted earlier for anchor weights; I need to look over the report again and see if I can reconcile the two. Steven
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The anchors would have been very light (between 47 and 67 kg or 85-130 pounds for the Serce Limani anchors) for a ship 30 metres (90 feet) long. Though the chain would have added to the weight, it would still have been fairly manageable using a windlass. Though I have to say based on the linguistic evidence I'm leaning more and more to the idea the entire anchor cable was made of rope. By the way, the broken anchor on the Serce Limani ship looked like this: If the other anchors hadn't had a chance to bite before this one broke, it's no wonder she was wrecked. Steven
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