Louie da fly
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Good point, Carl. The dromon has a sort of cathead called, if I recall correctly, a peribolos, which wouldn't stand up to a chain being repeatedly pulled up over it - that's assuming that my interpretation of the contemporary picture is in fact a peribolos, and that it works the way I've made it. So, it looks like I won't be using chain . . . . Steven
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Good point, Carl. But with the anchors being so light ( the heaviest could probably be lifted by two people) it's likely they'd just pick it up chain and all and throw it into the sea. Maybe - a lot of speculation going on, I'm afraid. I'm not really fixated on having a chain. I'm just trying to work out whether it would be likely to have one, or just an anchor cable. If only on a linguistic basis, I'm still more inclined to go with just rope - the original Greek would better translated this way, and there are so many downsides to having a chain that I hadn't thought about but have been brought to my attention by this discussion. Steven
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Hang in there, Kris. You're actually making progress and finding out what works and what doesn't. Even if it may be a little frustrating for the time being it will stand you in good stead in the future. We've all been there and you'll find that as you gain more experience you'll cast aside what doesn't work and spend more of you time doing what does. I still make a hash of cutting out and have to cut everything rather too big and then trim down with knife and sandpaper (or more often a file in my case - I just feel more comfortable with a fine file than with sandpaper). Steven
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Absolutely beautiful work, Javier. Your wonderful, tiny models are always an inspiration. But I am interested in why you chose a scale of 1:210 rather than, say, 1:200. Steven
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I wasn't aware that any Viking anchors had been found with chains attached, but Googling it I found the following at https://www.vikingeskibsmuseet.dk/en/professions/education/viking-knowledge/the-longships/findings-of-longships-from-the-viking-age/ladby/ : Fascinating and enlightening as this is, unfortunately this just further complicates the issue - should I use chain or not? Aaargh! Given that the whole idea of dromons having an anchor chain comes solely from Pryor's interpretation of a rather vague reference to "iron-throwing rope", I think I'm probably better off just using rope, particularly in light of the comments above, plus the fact that from among a fair number of Viking anchors found, the Ladby ship has the only example with a chain. However, there is an article in the Mariner's Mirror of 1963 - Vol. 49 No. 1 by Honor Frost entitled "From Rope to Chain - on the Development of Anchors in the Mediterranean" which may cast some light on the issue. Does anyone have access to this? Steven
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On the other hand, the making of chains was certainly not beyond Byzantine technology. The entrance to the Golden Horn harbour in Constantinople was closed by a massive chain to keep enemy ships from entering. The chain was on a roller and could be slackened off in peacetime to allow the harbour to be used. That being said, that chain was at the limit of technology and the provision of anchor chains to individual ships could not be quality controlled to anything like the same degree. Steven
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Thanks for the likes and the encouraging comments (though what I see when I look at these anchors is the bits I got wrong . . .) The next thing to make for the anchors is the wooden stocks. One is already done - 4 more to make. Steven
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Yes, Christos. The more I read and the more I think about it, the more I think you're right and that I should be using rope rather than chain. The fact that the word "iron" (sidero-) in schoinia siderobola is part of the combined word "siderobola" rather than standing by itself or being combined with "rope" (schoinia) indicates to me that it's not the rope that's made of iron, but the thing which is thrown - the anchor. So perhaps it should better be translated as "iron (anchor)-throwing rope", or just "anchor cable". Speaking of throwing-irons, here they are painted matt black so they look like iron instead of brass. I think they look pretty good. Steven
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MDF = medium density fibreboard. Steven
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Makes sense - though isn't the Mediterranean tideless? However, Mediterranean storms can be very fierce and unpredictable - anchors fixed into the beach would help guard against them. Steven
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Okay; a 1 hundredweight anchor (112 pounds) is almost exactly 50 kg. One and a half hundredweight is 76 kg, one and 3/4 hundredweight is 89 kg and 2 hundredweight is 101 kg. A hundredweight can be lifted without too much trouble by someone who is strong and fit, and for people accustomed to heavy loads an anchor of that weight wouldn't be a problem. Two men (or perhaps only one) could lift an anchor twice that heavy. For some basis of comparison see Olympic weightlifting records at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Olympic_records_in_weightlifting - how relevant this is to mediaeval sailors I'm not sure - weightlifting isn't my forte). How effective an anchor of this weight would be in holding a dromon at its mooring is anybody's guess, but I'd assume several would be needed. On the other hand, it was customary for galleys to be pulled up on shore (backwards) overnight, so I'm not sure how much use anchors got. And for holding ground in a storm, well . . . galleys were very easily swamped at the best of times, so I don't know how much use the anchors would have been. Further and further into the unknown . . . Steven
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A wonderful job, Marcus! I can't wait to see her after second planking. She's going to be very beautiful. As an Australian, I find this build fascinating. My first history book when I was in primary school in Western Australia was called "Australia since 1606" and I heard all about the Dirk Hartog and de Vlamingh silver plates and I've since seen the latter one in the shipwreck Museum in Fremantle, along with the relics of the Batavia, Zuytdorp and Vergulde Draeck. And of course Rottnest Island and the Swan River where I grew up were named by Vlamingh. Steven
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That's the very same ship! The anchors I have made are based on the ones from that wreck. The only question is - are the anchors from a small commercial ship appropriate to a dromon of the same century? (I've assumed they are, but I could be wrong.) The archaeological report on the Serce Limani anchors goes into considerable detail (pages 219-220) to show that the anchors were of standardised dimensions, both in the length of the shank: . . . . and of arms: and that anchors were of standardised weights: The units above are (Christos, please correct me if I'm wrong) βασιλικη σπιθαμαι (basiliki spithamai = Imperial spans) δακτυλοί (daktyloi = fingers/inches), ποδης (podes = feet), λίτραί (litrai = ?), παλαιστρη (palaistrai = ?), My only problem now is that the weights above seem to conflict with what I've noted earlier for anchor weights; I need to look over the report again and see if I can reconcile the two. Steven
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The anchors would have been very light (between 47 and 67 kg or 85-130 pounds for the Serce Limani anchors) for a ship 30 metres (90 feet) long. Though the chain would have added to the weight, it would still have been fairly manageable using a windlass. Though I have to say based on the linguistic evidence I'm leaning more and more to the idea the entire anchor cable was made of rope. By the way, the broken anchor on the Serce Limani ship looked like this: If the other anchors hadn't had a chance to bite before this one broke, it's no wonder she was wrecked. Steven
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That's really interesting, Christos. Back in the day when I went to La Trobe university in Melbourne I discovered one of the founders of the university must have been a Geek enthusiast, because the place names included the agora (the main square where everybody had lunch, gathered and talked etc.) and the peribolos (sorry I don't know how to do a Greek font - except by copying and pasting from your posts) - the peribolos was a structure "thrown" around an open square. It occurs to me that an alternative interpretation for σχοινιά σιδηροβόλα might be a thrown rope made of iron (i.e. a chain). But I think your interpretation seems more likely - otherwise the two ideas "iron" and "thrown" would not have been combined in a single word. Also, as Pryor mentions above the word σιδηροβόλα was sometimes used to mean anchor. Which leaves me with the problem of whether or not I use a chain on the anchor. On balance, simply because a chain would hold the anchor down to "bite", I think I will still use it. Also, the inventories above make no mention of any other ropes made of plant fibre (such as the ship's rigging) - if the σχοινιά σιδηροβόλα was made of rope, I'd expect the inventories to specify all the ropes, not just those for the anchors. Or (curse these second thoughts!) would an anchor cable be a special case that would be specified, when the ship's rigging was taken for granted? I'd better stop now, otherwise I'll vanish up my own navel . . . Steven
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Certainly it's possible, Pat. The Greek terminology is so vague there's any number of possible interpretations. One thing to work off is that there were 60 of them for 20 dromons - so three per dromon, and perhaps three anchors in use and three spares, to which the chains could be transferred when they were put into use? However, I like Pryor's logic regarding the need to get the anchor to lie down so it would bite, so I'm going with his interpretation. Steven
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Additionally, it would not be possible to haul a container of molten iron to the top of a tower without it cooling so much that it would have been at least partly solid.
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Aha! Here it is - Age of the Dromon page 212: "The inventories [for the Cretan expeditions of 911 and 949 A.D.] specified that for the 20 dromons there should be 120 sidera bolistika with 120 siderobolia, that is, six of each per dromon, as well as another 50 siderobolistika with 50 siderobola. This has to be the starting point . . . they also said that Department of the Vestiarion supplied another 60 “iron-throwing ropes”, scoinia siderobola, for the expedition. Since schoinia siderobola clearly implied something made of iron and equivalent to a rope, we conclude that the 120 and the 50 siderobola were the same thing and that the 120 and 50 siderobolistika/Sidera bolistika were something different. Sidera bolistika literally meant “casting irons” and these latter must therefore have been the anchors, which were “cast” into the sea, as the Leo VI and Nikephoros Ouranos both said. What then were the siderobolia/siderobola or schoinia siderobola in this context? There is no doubt that one of the scholia on Lucian’s Lexiphanes used the word siderobolion for an anchor; however, here we suggest that they were iron anchor chains attached to the anchors. The rope anchor cables would have been attached to them. When anchor cables are made of rope, as was the case in the Middle Ages, it is necessary to have the last few metres connected to the anchors made of a heavy chain because an anchor works best when the drag of the ship on it is as close as possible to parallel to the sea bottom. This causes the flukes to dig into the sea bed. But, because rope is light and floats, it tends to pull anchors upright and dislodge the flukes if attached directly to the anchors. Iron chain, on the other hand, will sink, thus causing the entire anchor system to form an arc with the anchor end as close to parallel to the bottom as possible. All modern small craft using rope anchor cables have a length of heavy chain connecting them to the anchors." As you can see, the evidence is pretty vague and subject to interpretation. I choose to follow Pryor in this, as I think his explanation makes sense. Steven
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That'd be good, Pat. I'll PM you my phone number. Mark, thanks for that insight. Druxey, I'll put that quote up when I find it. Steven
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Caravels are such beautiful vessels. I'll be following this build with interest. Steven
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Roter Löwe 1597 by Ondras71
Louie da fly replied to Ondras71's topic in - Build logs for subjects built 1501 - 1750
Magnificent work, Ondras. Steven
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