Deperdussin1910

Saw this last weekend at the Mariners Museum and thought the readers of this thread would like.

This paint thread reminded me of old discussions about the evolution of how colonial Williamsburg changed it's mind about "historically accurate" paint colors. Basically, they'd been focusing their color palate on faded paint chips. More scientific computer analysis brought in brighter colors and context to indoor and outdoor paints. More info here: http://makinghistorynow.com/2014/08/a-house-of-a-different-color/ Side bar: There is always the problem of some historic districts with large personalities in charge demanding strict adherence to certain colors. Until shown, those are inaccurate colors. Science is dead certain about something...until other science dis-proves it.

Just plain brilliant work on this model. Thanks for sharing it with us.

I crewed on this vessel. Let me tell you, the first few times going up the rig are breath taking. I got used to it. And remember, the rig is moving around even more than the ship. Doing the same at night with a star filled sky...PRICELESS!

talos...excellent information. I really liked the period artist's sketch representing the 1813 colors of the USS United States! Birch, Thomas, 1779-1851, artist

frolick...I hope all is well. "The larger windows have naval upper and lower half-lid-and-bucklers-style ports, just like Constitution had." If you ever get the chance, I'm sure several of us would enjoy seeing pictures of your naval preparations.

Glenn H., I look forward to seeing pictures of your progress on SoL AMERICA.

Great work on a wonderful project!!!

I'll chime in to add in the "it depends". American privateers were a way to make a patriotic investment for potential financial gain. Civic pride may have deemed some decoration necessary. Or some decoration may have been added to thank an investor. That kind of thing goes on today and I feel it may also have gone on back then.

Excellent discussion. I'd say this information is "copper bottomed" (I've known of the expression. But, I don't think I've every heard anyone use it...to my regret.)

I've always found it interesting how small a world it was in American shipbuilding back then. The US Brigs Niagara and Lawrence were built by Noah Brown. His brother Adam stayed back in New York City to assist in sending men and materials. In 1806 Henry Eckford, who lived in NYC but had also lived Kingston, ON, was invited by Christian Bergh to assist in building the US Brig Oneida on Lake Ontario Commodore Isaac Chauncey had been master of John Jacob Astor's Henry Eckford-built ship Beaver in 1806–1807 and had supervised Eckford & Beebe's construction of US Navy gunboats in 1808. Chauncey visited New York City in the first week of September 1812 to meet with Eckford and his fellow shipbuilders Christian Bergh and Adam and Noah Brown about the problem of building a fleet of warships on Lake Ontario. The Browns also agreed to head north to design and build Chauncey's fleet, while Bergh agreed to remain in New York City and oversee the transportation of men and material north to Lake Ontario. In December 1812 Henry Eckford joined Chauncey in an inspection tour of American military and shipyard facilities on the Great Lakes and, finding the yards on Lake Erie at Erie, Pennsylvania, and Black Rock, New York, struggling, made suggestions to their staffs on how to improve their shipbuilding efforts. Chauncey wrote to Noah Brown to hurry north from New York City and take charge at Erie, which Brown did in February 1813 while his brother Adam remained in New York City to work with Christian Bergh in ensuring that Noah received the men and supplies he needed. (side bar) Jacob Aaron Westervelt was an apprentice to Christian Bergh. Jacob Aaron Westervelt (January 20, 1800 – February 21, 1879) was a renowned and prolific shipbuilder who constructed 247 vessels[2]of all descriptions during his career of over 50 years. From 1853 until 1855 he was Mayor of New York City Christian Bergh had a NYC shipyard from 1817 to 1836. Among several notable craft, Bergh completed the build of he US Frigate President. I’ve been looking at Bergh’s merchant ship on page 180 of Howard Chapelle’s The Search for Speed Under Sail 1700-1855 as an addition to my build list. And now, there is a connection to the Niagara. Just read this from above source, “The Brown brothers appear to have designed the vessels they built, for on 6 September 1819 the Navy Board wrote to ask for the plans of all the naval vessels they had built on the Great Lakes.” P.229

I really enjoy the discussion. Love the picture with the camels. I might have moved them forward and put more pumps in them. I'm waiting for an attic find from one of the descendants of Adam and Noah Brown to find the Lake Erie brig plans to settle the design question. The overwhelming design and build constraint was that these vessels were built in a rush, in a distant outpost, with drastic material shortages (except green timber), for one battle. I think the period vessel would have looked a lot more rustic than what is portrayed in the current sailing version or most models. That said, my own RC modified, scratch built (much delayed) 1/24 scale model is also my romanticized version of the vessel I crewed on.

I enjoy your speculation and agree that there is no bad answer. I have a dream/plan of building in 1/24 the USS Franklin of the United States Navy. It's the scale I build in and am comfortable with. And, my built models are in proportion to each other. This scale is big enough for my fingers and helps with building a RC model that will handle the wind and waves in a realistic manner. However, even a static model at 1/24 scale gets big pretty fast if you build beyond sixth rate vessels. The USS Franklin was a 74-gun ship of the line. Built in 1815 under the supervision of Samuel Humphreys and Charles Penrose, she was the first vessel to be laid down at the Philadelphia Navy Yard. In 1/24, she'd be almost 8 feet on deck and fully sparred maybe 15 feet. Even as a static model that's a massive model to move and store...let alone ballast and RC sail. It certainly would be easier to live with a 1/24 74 model without her rig. One option for me is to build her as she appeared "in ordinary" ...just lower masts ...maybe housed over. The house could be made detachable. Just musing.

If you are building in 1/24, you might as well RC it

Great project! I've raced with the skipjacks at Deal Island. I'm tied between two of them in the photo. Fun times!

I thought someone else would have responded by now. So, I'll give you my two cents. On my list to build is the topsail scow sloop ELSIE of Havre de Grace, MD. She was among a dozen or so scow sloops and schooners that carried loads on the Chesapeake Bay. ELSIE specifically would haul stone from Havre de Grace down Bay to Baltimore and Norfolk. I have ELSIE's plans as her lines were drawn during the HAMMS project. FYI, sailing scows are the perfect boat for modern marinas on shallow draft waters...they are most boat per linear slip space rental. ​"The Historic American Merchant Marine Survey (HAMMS) was one of six projects created by the Works Progress Administration (WPA) to provide work for unemployed skilled or "white-collar" workers. These projects were intended to provide work which was both useful and appropriate to the skills and experience of workers who were not suited for more traditional work programs involving manual or outdoor labor. The specific goal of HAMMS was to undertake a national survey of watercraft, in order to document the design and technical evolution of vessel types significant in America's commercial maritime history. This was to be accomplished by making measured drawings of existing vessels, ship models, and builders' half models; by making a photographic record of significant vessels; and by compiling written data about vessels. The HAMMS program was in existence from January 1, 1936 to October 15, 1937. The Smithsonian Institution served as the official sponsor of the Survey and received all the documentation produced, thus augmenting its already significant National Watercraft Collection. Unlike other WPA projects, HAMMS was administered directly from Washington by its Director, Eric J. Steinlein, who coordinated the survey work of six regional directors. Despite its national mandate, the Survey actually was limited to the eastern seaboard, the Great Lakes, and California. Furthermore, the types of craft surveyed and the level of documentation varied considerably within the six regions. During the course of its existence, the HAMMS program conducted over 166 surveys and produced over 400 sheets of line drawings of ship's hulls, rigging, and details." http://amhistory.si.edu/archives/AC0240.pdf

Great photos at http://steamboats.com/museum/davet.html

Since this thread is for Steamboats and other Rivercraft, I'll add Show Boats. My favorite is the James Adams Floating Theater​​ that was a barge towed by two small tugs on the Chesapeake Bay and North Carolina Sounds. But there were more on the western American rivers.

Thank you for the information.

I'm interested in the USS FRANKLIN. I guess I have a biographical question. Samuel Humphreys supervised the construction of the ship-of-the-line USS Franklin, the first ship to be laid down at the Philadelphia Navy Yard, in 1815. Humphreys's father was Joshua Humphreys. And, Joshua's notebook has information on the USS FRANKLIN. So, is the son just building Dad's design? Interesting to read of the draft comparison with the USS INDEPENDENCE...given her demise to a razee.

Thanks for your help. I'm bending on sails to the yards and then installing RC gear to move them. This is the first time I ever furled a scale square sail. I believe this will help with the model's sailing balance.

Done. But, I can't upload the pictures because they are each over 2MB in size.

I hope to try to furl a mainsail tonight. I'll take pictures.

I like your work. "...I had the chance to construct and rig the two 9 pound long guns..." I have the plans from the Erie Maritime Museum and they show two short 12 pounders??

Can you see the link now? Can be found at www.Youtube.com as "RC Ram Schooner model sailing"