Ian_Grant

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/extraordinary-500-year-old-shipwreck-rewriting-history-age-discovery-180978825/?utm_source=smithsoniandaily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20211019-daily-responsive&spMailingID=45805020&spUserID=OTY4MjUzNzkyMTQ3S0&spJobID=2102058596&spReportId=MjEwMjA1ODU5NgS2

6 hours ago, allanyed said:

Great information Ian!  Does Harland give a contemporary source for this information?   

Thanks for sharing!

Allan

I may have misled - Harland is speaking of stowing spars in the rigging when topgallant (and) topmasts are sent down; not stowage of spare spars per se. He does mention that topgallant masts are sent down a backstay and stored on the booms.

His bibliography is rather extensive, including a couple of 18th century sources . but most are 19th or 20th century like our familiar Lees et. al.

I agree with Popeye that upper yards were stowed in the rigging, in fact I made up the royal yards missing in the Heller Victory kit and stowed them inside the topmast shrouds. This is in accordance with "Seamanship in the Age of Sail" by Harland.

Bill, we talked about this before. See post #433 where the tack runs through a sheave in the chess tree. I was just reminding you.....

I agree with Kevin.

Don't forget to feed that main tack through the chess tree! 🙂

Dale,

I really like your model, but hate to inform you that you have attached the jibs with the hanks along the wrong edges . The jib sheets should attach at the right-angled corner of the sail; the long edge you have loose should attach to the stay.

Just in case you want to fix it. 😐

Bill, since no one has answered (perhaps because it could turn into a very long dissertation) here is how I started.

I looped my shroud pairs over the lower masts first then attached the jeer cleats and topmasts. All was pre-painted and then masts were glued in. Left shrouds dangling loose while attaching lower yards and their slings, jeers, and trusses, figuring they would not be affected by any mast positioning tweaks by standing rigging later and I had better access with loose shrouds. Rigged lifts but left loose.

Once these ropes that run down alongside the mast were done, I rigged the shrouds then the stays, working my way upward and from bow to stern. Topgallant masts were attached once topmast shrouds were looped round topmast head, and then sort of repeat the above process.

Of course, yards had all their blocks attached before adding to masts.

My chief concern was access for belaying at deck pins because I have big hands and did not want to be reaching in with tools I don't have to try to tie things off. In fact, I attached many many lines (for example mizzen stays) to deck even before inserting masts, and rigged "in reverse" because there's better access up high. I attached threads of sufficient length to many deck pins and rigged in reverse too. It's a mess of coils at times but I'd rather do it that way.

That's a brief indication of my thought process.

Gorgeous!  Wonderful! Love the flags! And this is what, three inches long? Amazing!

Beautiful work, especially at that scale!  Can't imagine trying to make those oars.  We've been to Chania and I remember lunching at one of the restaurants opposite the lighthouse on the breakwater. Lovely city and we had a great time on Crete!

<edit>  ps Also got up at the crack of dawn in Chania to go on the Samaria Gorge hike. Memorable experience too.

Kevin, actually you could print the hull in sections, like Yves Vidal's corvette.

Just sayin'    😁😉

If the rigging is like my Victory, the chess tree is for the main tack in which case the slot should line up with the hole in the hull for that tack. Going by your plan and photo the slot is ok but the chess tree top needs to be cut off.

I have to admit, the 1/4 galleries do look good with copper. Great job painting the balusters! Or are they etch?

1/4 galleries aren't copper, just the belfry. I guess it is considered an important part of the ship to be taken pride in - just look at the fancy woodwork!

No I didn't provide proof of purchase.

Looks good Bill.  FYI the belfry roof is copper clad I believe.

Also you can get replacement parts from Heller; go to glow2b.de click on "service" then "spare part form". I had no luck emailing them this form but got an immediate response (and the part) when I FAX'ed it over to the given number.

Same idea but this Bismarck was decades ago....before the internet, even 😃

Thought members might be interested:

The largest model of Bismarck that I ever saw was in the late 70's. She was built by an ex-crewman and a local mall in Bramalea, which contained my favourite hobby shop (YAY, "Vivian's Hobbies" !!!) as a model-building teenager, had her on display. I don't know the exact length, and it's a long time ago for recollection, but let's say 20-25 ft. To actually cruise on the water this gentleman sat inside it with his head and shoulders inside the forward superstructure, looking out I suppose the bridge windows.

This model was on a tour of sorts and he had a signing book for any ex-crew members. I was surprised by how many signatures it contained.

Just did a quick google search for it but nothing found as yet.

Plans were available from the Trireme Trust organization which has been wound down now that Olympias is out of the water etc.  When I tried to get plans last winter, I got a reply that they were looking to hire a new librarian and to try again in the spring. I never did, but you could try them again now.

So I'm puzzled; how is it that the Heller model has the gun deck level with the head gratings or whatever it's called? Presumably the gunports are in the "right" hull locations and the guns are not 1/4" off vertically; if so how can the headrails be in the correct position vertically? I can't understand how this 2 ft scale difference is absorbed...........🤔😒

ps: Kevin are you certain you will finish before they do? 😁

pps: Amazing fusion360 stern you've made. I hadn't looked at your log in a while until today.

The grass does not grow under your feet, Bill...😀

3 hours ago, Bill97 said:

I have no idea how such a thing could be manufactured, or how big it would be, but I have often thought a printed version of these build logs with a topic index would be a crazy valuable reference source. 

If we could enter a descriptive caption for pictures we add to logs, and others could search for caption keywords, it would be much easier to make use of other peoples' long logs.

Moderators? Is it possible?

I actually found that picture just doing a google search for "HMS Victory beakhead bulkhead images".

In all HMS Victory searches, Daniel comes up in some way. You get to recognize some of his shots, for example the row of men on the heads 😃

 Bill, your bulkhead extreme close-up reminds me that the two gunport lids are crazy low relative to the deck. I believe on the old Forum people advocated raising them a bit. It was too late in my case, but here is a shot of Daniel's modified bulkhead. He seems to have raised the door sills and the ports; maybe you can find out all about it in his log.

Fantastic looking model!  It's a shame you aren't doing RC for it; it would be spectacular on the water.

2 hours ago, Bill97 said:

“You’d best give very plain descriptions, I wouldn’tknow a jeer from a shear at this point.”😀

Keven this is so true for me as well. After getting the above post from our dear friend Ian I had to pull out my Longridge book and Google for definitions!  Jeers, upper jeer blocks, timber hitched, main yard, garnets, clew line, and dangling clusters!  I think I had to take medication one time for dangling clusters! 🤔

 

But I have to admit I am learning a lot of nautical stuff I never knew before. Big thank you Ian.

Medication...HAHAHA!!    I just typed in "dangling clusters" as the simplest way to describe the groups of three blocks hanging from the clew line when rigging without lower sails. It's not a nautical term...😁

9 hours ago, Kevin-the-lubber said:

I’ve booked for monday so, if there are any details you’d like photographed, sing out and I’ll do my best. You’d best give very plain descriptions, I wouldn’t know a jeer from a shear at this point. This will be my first non-family trip, just me and a camera, purely for info gathering. Sadly I think it still doesn’t have the upper masts or rigging, I was very disappointed at that when I first visited 8 or 9 years ago but maybe I’ll see them back on one day.

 

postscript: just occurred to me that, therefore, I don't suppose the rigging talked about above will be present... but at least I may be able to see how they handled the grating and fixings

 

(I googled Hackney following Ian’s tip, horrifically expensive on some sites…. But then looked on Amazon and saw a copy for £1.50 - about $2 - needless to say I couldn’t get my wallet out quick enough).

Yes, my family was in the UK a few years ago and I didn't bother going to Portsmouth to see Victory unrigged in her 20 year (!!!!) refit. When I last saw her in the late 80's she was also in a refit with blue tarps around half her hull. According to the schedule it should be completed when I am 75; I have my daughter's promise that if needs must she will go over with me to push my wheelchair on board 😃. Mind you, had I known that the Royal Navy Museum was there now, I would have gone. I thought I had it covered going to the NMM and to the Science Museum where to my disappointment Longridge's model is no longer on display.😕

Two dollars is a great buy! The Hackney book tends to be looked down upon by serious modellers for some reason. It's a little volume intended to help people building the smaller Airfix model to enhance its appearance and accuracy. The rigging illustrations are pretty basic in style but informative; in fact I could not understand the yard-arm tackles from just Longridge - Hackney helped.

There are however a few conflicts between Longridge and Hackney regarding block sizes on some rigging lines; I went with Longridge.