allanyed

Shipman, Pick a boat and you will get answers for sure. There are scantlings by Steel and more information in Boats of Men of War by W.E. May Scantlings for boats of about 1800 that show main thwarts from 7" broad for a 16 foot cutter to 12 inches for main thwarts for a 32 foot longboat. Pinnaces and yawls were from 9" to 10" broad. Loose thwarts for a 16 foot cutter were 7" broad up to 9" broad for a 32 foot longboat. After thwarts ranged from 7" on a 16 foot yawl to 9" on all longboats. Forward thwarts ranged from 7" on a 16 foot yawls, to 9" on all launches and 10" on all longboats. Pick a boat and size and there is information available for each. Earlier scantlings give thicknesses of main and loose thwarts, but I could not find any dimensions for their breadth but would assume they would be similar to those in the 1800 scantlings. Allan

Chris, If you are scratching and it is a framed model you are taking on a huge project, good for you!!!! Which Agamemnon, 1781 or some other? I know there are all the scantlings you will need and good contemporary inboard profile drawings of her and her sisters. If this is a kit with POB, it will be interesting to see how you can do this cutaway as I am sure many builders would like to try this as well. Looking forward to seeing your progress on a build log. Allan

Jon, Lacking better information, I agree, Chapelle is my "go to" source. Even there, he gives multiple rigs for some lines showing that not all vessels were rigged exactly the same, even if those vessels were similar in size and type. 18 degrees -- no thank you. Allan

If the mast is set into a square hole in a corresponding mast step, the rigging will hold everything in place. If there is no such step and the mast can rotate, gluing is a good idea. While setting up the rigging, unless secured in some way, be it the square mortice in the step or glue, the mast may get turned a bit and the cross trees and platforms will not be square to the keel as they should be. Allan

Darren, I am not sure if there were standards, but there is some information available. This is not a straight forward thing. Which ship, year nation? The Lady Nelson that you list in your signature may have been different than rated ships as she was an armed survey vessel built in a private yard by John Dudman. Contemporary information for rated British ships is available and may be similar, if not the same, for Lady Nelson. If there were wales, some scantlings for rated ships are in the Establishments and can also be found in the Shipbuilder's Repository and Steel's Elements of Naval Architecture. They all give the thickness of the plank of the bottom as well, but not the widths. Some cross section drawings show the planks width, and there are planking expansion drawings that show the individual planks from which you can get an idea on the widths. Looking at the planking expansion drawing that I have of Squirrel (24), 1785, as one example, the widths were about 10" for the plank of the bottom midships. The strakes all tapered so the widths varied a lot from the dead flat to the bow (down to about 6.5" at the stem) and from the dead flat to the stern post (widening from 10" to over 11") From Steel and the SR the thick stuff above the wales was 13" wide, and the wales were anywhere from over 15" wide down to about 9.5" wide depending on the size of the ship. Also, depending on the ship and era, the wales could have been anchor stock or similar planking rather than strakes of planking found on the rest of the hull. The planking above the thickstuff for Squirrel is 8" and was different for various ship sizes. Lastly, ships contracted to private yards commonly had contracts with scantlings, including information regarding the planking. They were pretty detailed on the various thicknesses and gave some information on the widths as well. Sorry to hit you with maybe too much information, but if you can narrow things down to one ship, members can probably steer you to reliable sources for accurate information. Allan

"Seams" to be a standard dimension across the ocean for both seams and panels. Thanks gentlemen! Allan

Ref: Gloucester fishing schooner Ernestina nee Effie M. Morrissey 1894. I am trying to settle on a net spacing of the canvas sail panels, that is, the distance between seams. Given a seam of 2" the net distance for schooner Columbia is given by Chapelle as 20". He is also specific about the seam being 2" wide except on the periphery of the sail which is closer to 4". In doing a test piece, 20" looks to be very narrow. If anyone has information on the width of sail panels and can share, I would be grateful. Modern vessels are closer to 36" from what I have been able to find but I cannot find any information other than in Chapelle for the schooners of 100-130 years ago. Allan

Revolver Ocelot, or should we just call you Shalashaska? 😀 Welcome aboard MSW. It is great to have a "youngster" join our ranks!!! You will have access to thousands of mentors here so fear not regarding minimum experience, space, and tools. Allan

Jon, Will there be a boom buffer on her rebuild? Pain in the neck to make and install and bigger pain to get the rings and block installed and the line rove. Continuing to love the diorama!!! Allan

Jon, I was concerned about the number of pins available as well. The drawings from the National Archives only show 10 port and 10 starboard on the rails as well as seven eyes. There are also the pin rails around each mast and two pins forward near the bow. Plus we know of the two at the boom saddle for a total of 34. Chapelle mentions a total of 43 with their positions listed on the schooner Phillip P. Manta, including four in the stern seat. To be sure there were a LOT of variations in the number and locations of the belay points over the years so I am unsure of the exact location on the Effie at the time she was built. I would be absolutely thrilled to have an exact belay plan based on contemporary information on Effie specifically. With her modifications over the years, including for Arctic exploration service, there were changes in many things as you know, including different deck houses, an engine, air cowls, and so forth so could have been with the rigging as well. Regarding the boom seat, yes, from what I could find the saddle/yoke did not rest directly on these but rather had a boom seat on the forward side of the mast. The more I learn the more I find I don't know and that is a great thing as life will never be dull. Thanks for your input! Do you have the current belay plans for Ernestina from the shipyard or what they are basing the plan on? Even though it is current, it may be closer to what she had when launched than plans from other sources I have found. Allan

Amalio, Thanks for sharing the details. Another great lesson in my ever growing book of how to do something. Allan

The mail system is indeed a mess and of course they always feel the need to raise prices of postage to go with the poor service. I sent an envelope from Florida to Maine (1600 miles) this month and it took 11 days to get there. I did quick check and found the following regarding the Pony Express: In 10 days, riders could deliver a letter the 1,966 miles from the base in St. Joseph, Missouri, to the terminus in Sacramento, California. Keep in mind this was 150 years ago!!! Allan

Michel, Mon plaisir. Allan

MIke What schooner are you rigging? I am sure there was some kind of traditional order when rigging a full sized ship, but for a model, I think you have more leeway. Definitely rig as much as possible before you install blocks, eyes, hoops and so forth on the the masts, gaffs, booms, spars etc. The following is just my way when rigging schooners, but it is not by any rule, just the way I have had good experience. I start with the main mast, pre-install the mast hoops, cross trees, cheeks, bails, everything possible, before stepping the mast. Then on to the foremast, but I see no reason not to go with the foremast first. Next up for me are the shrouds and swifters. Pre-rigged sprit or spike, depending on the vessel, can go next and then top masts follow, then appropriate stays, spring stays and other standing rigging. Next up are the pre-rigged booms and gaffs. I have actually gone with the sprit as late in the order as possible at times as it sticks out and extra care needs to be taken when turning or otherwise handling the model. Again I don't think there is any set rule for a model but I am very curious to read what others do. Allan

White, Welcome aboard MSW. Can you tell us the source of this quote? It is a new term for me, but based on the few words they give regarding renewing the through bolts, it sounds like it MAY be that this is the strip of wood molding (moulding) that goes on the outboard edges of the channels which would cover the through bolts and close the slots in which the deadeye chains fit. Remove this molding, replace the bolts, then replace the molding &c. Hope someone has a clear answer regarding what this term is. Allan

Heat is the key as very well explained above, but I do like to soak some of the problem planks a bit before bending and ironing them as explained in Chuck Passaro's write up. To do the soaking I have a couple pieces of 1/2 inch ID plastic pipe that I cut to a few different lengths with a cap glued on one end of each. Cheap and easy to find in any hardware store. Small, uses little water, keeps the water warm longer if you want to use hot water. Larger diameters are of course readily available. The long pieces of wood tend to rise (float) for a while so I loosely cap the other end as well to keep them submersed. You will know they are thoroughly wet when they do not bob up after the loose cap is removed. MOST of the time I forgo the water and just use dry heat with no issues. Allan

Jaager, I think you missed a little bit. Considering the open grained walnut, --in many, not all, kits ---not even an obscuring surface stain will fix that problem. Any close grained wood would really be a huge help. Cost of course is a factor, but there has to be better choices for the same price or a price that is reasonably close. Allan

Tony, Most of us would LOVE to have some true boxwood and use it in its natural color. Why do you want to color it? If whatever finish is on the ruler is removed, the wood will be a bit yellowish and may even have darkened over time. This is a beautiful wood that the model builders of old used and I do not believe they stained or otherwise colored them. Further to the above by Jaager and Roger, I have had no issues with India ink when dying wales and the adjacent black strake which have been made of Castillo, (calycophyllum multiflorum). This is of course not as hard as true boxwood (buxus sempervirens,) but pretty close. Dyes and/or inks may be something for Tony to try on a small test piece to see how well it penetrates. Allan

Thanks Keith! I cannot recommend enough the internally stropped blocks from Syren. I followed the instructions for assembling them on his website but modified to using PVA and found the results to be better than using CA. His rope is also a pleasure to work with as I have not yet tried making my own. With this material available at a good price I doubt I will ever make my own unless I do a fully rigged rated ship in a relatively large scale. Allan

Lots of ways to skin the proverbial cat here Don. You can certainly draw up each station (what I think you are calling sections) by hand. There were no easily affordable CAD programs 35 years ago and we managed somehow :>) Shaky hands..... CAD may be actually be better for you. As for an old brain, I was around 60 when I first gave it a try. I am FFFFFAAAARRRR from being an expert but learned enough to enjoy using this tool. Back one step. You mention making your frame as close to the lines as possible. Are you talking about framed build (POF) or bulkhead build (POB)? If you want to build a framed model, keep in mind each frame is made up of anywhere from 7 to 12 pieces, a bulkhead being just one solid piece in most instances, thus my question. Allan

Progress photos of Effie follow. Should be done with the standing rigging in a week or so then on with sails and running rigging. As with models of ships of old where it is far easier to pre-rig the spars with the various hardware, I have done so with the gaffs, booms, and spike and continue to find it a good practice to follow. Allan

If you study the drafting articles here at MSW you will have everything you need to convert the images into your own CAD drawings. Easiest way to start and to also correct distortions that most of the old drawings have is to insert the image into a new drawing page in your CAD program and extend or shrink whichever dimension, if either, is off a bit. Most of the originals are 1:48 but you can enlarge the image so the length of the gundeck, which is easy to find in many, if not most, cases is actual size. Trace the lines with straight lines, arcs and circles for the most part. Once your drawing is complete, you can scale to whatever you want. Keep in mind these were done by hand with pencil and/or pen so the lines do not have the same perfect edge as a line in you CAD program as you will see when you enlarge a section to a large extent. When you blow up the image you will find lines that do not meet or go beyond the meeting point at times but such was the nature of drawing by hand. This is a great way to learn about the construction of these ships and will no doubt bring on a host of additional questions. Again, study the information here at MSW, it will answer most of your questions. Allan

Don, Not sure what you mean. The station line numbers along the keel are a reference to their location along the keel, they have nothing to do with the keel itself. The body plan gives the shape of the hull at each of these stations. You can study some drawings that show both body plan and profile and you will see the station line numbers on each view. There are plenty to choose from on the Wikimedia site and the RMG Collections site from which to choose. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Ship_plans_of_the_Royal_Museums_Greenwich If you are still unsure, please post a sketch or drawing of why you think station lines would have any connection with the shape of the keel. Allan

From David Steel's The Shipwrights Vade Mecum DEAD-FLAT. A name given to that timber or frame which has the greatest breadth and capacity in the ship, and which is generally called the midship bend. In those ships where there are several frames or timbers of equal breadth or capacity, that which is in the middle should be always considered as dead-flat, and distinguished as such by the character ['+' surrounded by a circle]. The timbers before dead-flat are marked A, B, C, &c. in order; and those abaft dead-flat by the figures 1, 2, 3, &c. The timbers adjacent to dead-flat, and which have no rising, are distinguished by the characters (A) (B) &c. and (1) (2) &c. Allan

The ends depend on the vessel, era, etc. Gloucester and other fishing schooners (which obviously have nothing to do with the Revenge) have eye splices on each end which are then seized to the shrouds and/or swifters. Allan