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Everything posted by SJSoane
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Looking great, Siggi! Your painting on the friezes and headwork is masterful. And inspiration for us all. Mark
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Hi druxey, yes, that does help. I see one of the biggest issues here is getting the fore and aft edges of the core and the two hair brackets to be flush with each other. Maybe I make the hair brackets first, glue them to the core, file them flush to each other, glue the whole thing down onto the top of the knee and then attach the cheeks. otherwise, I would be trying to file the core and the hair brackets flush to each other while on the ship--not a pretty idea to contemplate!
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The cheeks saga continues. I finally got both cheeks, both sides, close to finish size and pinning in place: I made the cheeks up in two parts, hopefully to get the grain to run roughly parallel to the scratch moulding still needed to be done on each outboard surface: I also used, for the first time, my handy vise attachments that hold irregular pieces. I don't know how else I would ever have held these multi-curved surfaces for shaping: Then came the awful discovery that I had cut the top of my knee at the head to the wrong profile. Fifteen years ago I made my best guess at this shape (photo from 2008): And then as the cheeks neared completion, I started wondering how the moulding continuing on from the top cheek--the hair bracket-- would be supported for its full length to the scroll at the top. I looked again at the original Bellona model, and saw there had to be a much higher core up from the knee of the head, between the hair brackets and abaft the figurehead: I tried making one piece, with a slot to slip over the knee, but soon gave up on that as pretty impossible to cut a slot tapering in two directions while keeping it aligned athwartships and fore and aft: I finally realized that the top of the knee should have looked more like this upper left piece in the drawing below: So tomorrow, I will see how I can fit my retro piece onto the top of the knee, between the upper cheeks: Wish I had understood that 15 years ago, and good thing I am not in a hurry....
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Thanks so much, Marc and druxey. While our digital resources today open up research to more of us not close to the major libraries, it is still sometimes frustrating not to be able to dig into an archive and find just the right item. So we do the best we can with the help of people on this site! druxey, I am glad you have looked this over and think I am headed in the right direction. I will fix the square hole in the wheel. I still don't quite understand what the solid piece is that guides the burrs once they come around the rowle at the bottom; could it be a solid piece of metal the width of the tubes, bolted between the metal side panels supporting the rowle? And I wonder what holds in place the lower end of the return tube, just floating in the air in Lavery redrawing of the 1708 Resolution? When I drew the chain and burrs at different points coming around the rowle, I could see just how much that chain would have clanked, tightening and loosening. Amazing it didn't come off more regularly! Best wishes to both of you for the new year! Mark
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Press release March 1, 1760; "The Admiralty just learned that the proposed Cole-Bentinck chain pump will not be available for another 10 years. The HMS Bellona currently being fitted out in Chatham Dockyard will have to install a standard pump". I bothered me that I was recently showing a pump designed a decade after the Bellona's launch, even though I am trying to show her as she was designed. I looked again at sources, and found information I had overlooked in Lavery's Arming and Fitting, page 71; a redrawn section through the Resolution of 1708. It is the only drawing I have found of a pump before the Cole-Bentinck, and so I will go with the idea that this pump was probably closer to the one installed in the Bellona in 1760. Lavery points us to some drawings in Blanckley's Naval Expositor of 1750. Taken from the Gutenburg permission free ebook online, here is the key idea at the upper wheel. These sprockets are driven into a solid elm wheel, over which the chain rides. With this, and then interpreting as best I can the drawing of the Resolution, here is my best shot at the design of a pre-Cole-Bentinck pump, ca. 1750. Distinctive elements: 1) the return tube does not go all the way to the lower end of the pump; 2) the bottom of the pump rests right on the outboard planking, set into a deep slot beside the keelson; 3) it has a bottom roller, like the later Cole-Bentinck design. I can see how the chain and burrs would bump over that, tightening and loosening the chain and causing the problems mentioned in various sources regarding this traditional pump. And the chains have no mechanical hook to the sprockets, allowing the slippage mentioned earlier. But at least this is closer to authentic for 1760 than I have managed so far. Unless anyone has come across a contemporary drawing of a circa 1750 pump, this is my best bet... Mark
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Hi Marc, I have been away from the website for what seems like such a long time, with life issues that have arisen in abundance these last couple of years. Anyway, I recently had a chance to look over your posts in more detail, and I can say you continue to set the very highest standards for research, construction and painting. Truly a work of art emerging! And a thrill to follow you down the paths of research on these very complex 17th C. ships! Mark
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Hi Alan, Looking great. That last little bit of hull at the stern is a more complex form that one would ever appreciate from drawings alone. it manages to go from curved in two directions to a straight edge at the counter timber in an almost imperceptible transition. I had to make oversize and shave down when I could see the overall form of the hull. Mark
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Gary, I enjoyed looking over your latest photos. The build is really coming along well, and nicely photographed! Here's looking forward to a good and productive new year! Mark
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Thanks, druxey, That earliest version of the Cole-Bentinck pump illustrated in Falconer would certainly have left a lot of water in the bilge, since the height at which water is captured is about level with the top of the keelson. I can see why the subsequent modifications included dropping the pump base as far down as possible. It is quite intriguing to see the evolution of a technology, and also to see an early version of a user's manual that you refer to in Lavery's book. My brother once worked as a technical writer for a software company, and the writers complained that the engineers kept tweaking the software right up to the point of release, leaving the written manuals sometimes incomplete and inconsistent. I wonder if Cole and Bentinck kept tweaking their design after their user manual was produced?🙂
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While waiting for steaming and glue to dry, I tackled a drawing project I had long, long put aside, the pumps. I am not installing anything except the cisterns, but I was always curious about these. So I did a little digging in Lavery's Arming and Fitting of English Ships of War (pp. 66-76), Peter Goodwin's Construction and Fitting of the English Man of War (pp. 138-142), David Antscherl's Fully Framed Model (vol. II, pp. 96-102) and Dodds and Moore's Building the Wooden Fighting Ship (p. 100). The year of the Bellona's completion, 1760, appears to be in a transitional period from earlier, inefficient pumps to the much improved Coles-Bentinck which was first tested in 1768 and underwent a number of improvements over the next few years. There is less information available in these printed resources for the pumps before the Coles-Bentinck, so I was left wondering what the Bellona pump more exactly might have looked like. The only primary document drawing I could find closer to the launch of the Bellona is plate VIII in Falconer's Dictionary of the Marine published 1769, which I have shown here from the Guttenberg ebook project. Brian Lavery says this has features in common with the Coles pump, but with some notable differences like the cogged wheels which are not in the later Coles-Bentinck pumps. He says that "Either this is an early version of the Coles pump, or it is one of many other inventions of the period." (p. 72 footnote). Falconer's clearly identifies this illustration as the "naval chain-pump, by Mr. Cole, under the direction of Capt. Bentinck", which Falconer says works much better than the earlier pumps. It must have been one of the very earliest versions, since the cogged wheel disappears in later versions. And Falconer is publishing this just a year after the initial test of the Coles-Bentinck pump. Lacking detailed information on pumps before this one in Falconer, I decided that this would at least be closer to the Bellona date than the later, well illustrated Coles-Bentinck pumps. Shall we assume that the Bellona installed this improved pump when it first become available a decade after launch? I quickly discovered that this drawing is not an accurately scaled drawing. The distance from top to bottom is way too short relative to the sizes of the cisterns and pump tube diameters. So I took features from this drawing and tried to accurately scale it to the actual hull. Things I learned in this exercise. 1. The cogged wheels do not engage or drive the disks as they go around. There are bolts at the point of each tooth that actually engage hooks on the chain links. I see why they quickly abandoned the cogged wheel and kept the bolts and hooks. 2. The disks are of a smaller diameter than the tubes everywhere in the pump EXCEPT at the most critical part, a chamber at the outboard base of the pump where the disks have a tight fit (last illustration below). This makes sense, after thinking about it. A tight fit all along the pump would have created a great deal of friction in the machine. It only needs to pull up water within this chamber which then holds up the column of water from the chamber to the cistern. Very, very clever. 3. This drawing curiously holds the bottom chamber up from the floor, indeed, hanging off the keelson. Later pumps try to get right down to the floor or even cut into the frames so the point of pulling up water is as close to the bottom as possible. This pump will leave a good puddle in the bilge that it cannot reach. However, when one considers that the hull is usually heeled over, it is probably getting close enough to the bottom of the bilge water. If anyone has come across sufficiently detailed drawings of pumps in service just before this pump, please share and I will redraw. Until then, the Bellona gets a pump refit....🙃 Oh well, back to the model....
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Thanks so much, Gary and Alan, just when I think I know the name of everything, then I discover yet more to know... The lining proved yet more difficult to fasten than I expected. I could not get a clean shot at clamping the outboard end firmly to the hull. So I made a special clamp, with a pad shaped to the end of the lining. either my clamps could not reach that far over the edge, or they were so fat I couldn't see if things were bedded home or not. So thin legs on the new clamp gave a good view and also applied pressure at just the right place. Then it all worked out: And a first look at the second layer, which still needs steaming. And the hawse holes penciled in: Mark
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Thanks so much, everyone. Gary, I am getting ditzy in my old age; I forgot that you had already tackled this interesting detail and turned out a beautifully crafted solution. thanks again for showing this. Greg and Mike, good advice on using the delicate mills. Mine got misdirected in the mail, and won't get here for another week. Then I will play around with it for the sheaves in the beakhead bulkhead stantions. Those were going to be a bear to construct at 1:64 scale without this mill... druxey Mike and Yves, I steamed the first layer and it worked perfectly, thanks for directing me to this solution. It was just too hard to fay the lower edge to the cheek with the piece springing away all the time. druxey, do you happen to know if there is a name for this additional plate on the face of the hawse holes. I don't recall seeing it named anywhere, but then my memory is not the greatest lately. And have you seen anywhere how it is actually constructed? Carved out of one piece, or also laminated in real life? Happy holidays, everyone!
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Hi Greg, I add my congratulations to everyone else's. You have set the highest standard for model builders around the world. An inspiration to look at. Mark
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On to the piece between the cheeks--I don't know what it is named--that forms a broad surface through which the hawse holes are cut. This is an interesting piece, because it appears to be in two layers, one longer than the other. The layer closest to the hull has a single elliptical edge (between the ends of the cheeks below), while the layer on top of it has an elliptical edge with vertical segments to the cheeks (the double curves between the end and the hawse holes). Maybe it is actually one piece with this step carved into it, but I am treating it as two layers for constructional ease. I am pondering how to curve these two layered pieces to the curve of the hull. I have tried cold clamping a rough blank of one layer (below), to see how much springback there is, and it is a fair amount. Not sure I should trust glue alone to hold this permanently. So, do I try steaming these thin pieces, and clamping to the hull to dry? Or maybe glue them together as a lamination, and clamping that to the hull to dry? Does anyone have experience with this piece?
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Thanks, druxey, Mark and Yves. Interesting, the cheeks look so straightforward, when you look at photos of models from the period. It is only when you start down that road that you discover the complexities waiting for you! It is further testament to the shipwrights who designed and built these. Functionally, they just had to provide lateral support to the head. But aesthetically, they had to continue the sheer lines of the hull, and echo the roundup of the main wales as they bend around to the stem. They cared as much about the looks as the function. Yves, after I figured out that the catheads twist as they go through the hull, I cut the blanks oversize in the plan way, and then shaped the correct angle first on the tails and then on the head. I never did figure out ahead of time the geometry of how they intersect with each other on the tops and sides. I just worked carefully to maintain the correct angle on each end, and then the crease lines between the two just settled out on their own as I brought the surfaces together. The crease lines don't align with anything like the curve of the hull in plan or the sheer from the side. But they appear to be hidden within the hull frame, so all looks shipshape when it is all done. By the way, at my 3/16 " = 1'-0" scale, I could not at first figure out a way to cut the slots in the cat head for the sheaves. I tried drilling them out, and then cleaning with a chisel, as would be done in normal practice; but I did not have a tool thin enough to get into the slot. In the end, I had to use a slitting saw on my mill to cut slots from the ends, and then fill with with small slivers of wood to block the outer end. I hope the carved cathead on the ends will cover up the fact that is it not a solid piece of wood, but a lamination of sorts. Best I could do! Mark
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Hi everyone, A long, long time since I last posted. I have been working away, but the recent pieces took an exceptionally long time to work out, and there was not a lot to show in the process. I realized some time ago that I would not be able to install the guns on the lower deck until I completed the outboard works, since I would not be able to turn the hull on its side for painting once the gun barrels were projecting from the side. So I was planking up to the top, when I further realized that I would need to install the catheads before completing the planking at the fore end of the forecastle. And those turned out to be way, way more difficult than I had imagined. I first carefully drew true size projections of the catheads in plan and elevation: When I cut them from blanks, I assumed I could just cut straight down according to the drawn plan. Wrong! The cat tails inboard are not only shaped athwartship according to the forecastle beam round up, but also beveled fore and aft according to the sheer of the deck. But the catheads outboard are beveled according to the sheer of the hull, which is steeper. This means the cathead twists as it passes through the hull relative to its tail. I went through a number of failures before I figured this out. Before I could cut the hook scarps on the tails and cut the slot into the hull on the sides, I needed to locate the cat beam underneath. Then I realized that I would need to locate the beakhead bulkhead stantions since they score onto this beam and have to align with the vertical edge of the hull in this location. But in order to install the beakhead stantions, I would need to build the substructure for the beakhead just above the gundeck level, which meant that I had to drill the hawseholes before access is covered up here, and that meant I had to complete the cheeks outboard. So, then onto cheeks. These also had a much more complicated geometry than I had first appreciated. They have a round-up athwartships to match the sheer of the main wales at the bow; they fay to the wales with a curve and also a slope back along the face; and they have an upward slant fore and aft to match the hull sheer. As I tried to fay these to the wales, the slightest change in holding them against the wale would change the shape needed. So I made supports at the correct angle and kept the lower edge flat, so I could reliably slide the cheek against the wale for the usual trim, test, trim, to fay it accurately. Then I could shape the lower edge of the fore and aft arm to its final form. And voila, lower cheeks: I don't know why this took me so long to work out these two interesting pieces, the catheads and cheeks. Perhaps because they are so prominent I took my time to get it right.... Now onto the upper cheeks and the hawse holes and bolsters. Mark
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PIllars
SJSoane replied to allanyed's topic in Building, Framing, Planking and plating a ships hull and deck
Hi Allan, In passing these on to you, I noticed something I had not seen before. Directly afore the ladder from the quarterdeck down to the upper deck, there is a pillar on the center line right at the base of the ladder. It also required an additional carling on the centerline, which seems like redundant structure with the two carlings either side of the ladderway nearby: And then I see again the same situation at the ladder from the upper deck to the gundeck, a pillar directly at the base of the ladder: It would have been so easy to put pillars on the carlings either side of the ladder way, not blocking the access to the ladder. So there are other considerations going on, whether pillars are on the centerline or not. Just when you think you understand what those guys were doing! BTW, I use your Scantlings book quite regularly. Great book! Mark -
PIllars
SJSoane replied to allanyed's topic in Building, Framing, Planking and plating a ships hull and deck
Hi Allan, I wrote to the National Maritime Museum in 2011, and asked if I could visit the Bellona model. I showed them the work I had done on my research and model. They arranged for a private viewing in one of their back workrooms, and I was allowed to take as many photos as I wanted. They hovered in the background working on something else, but I really was left to look it over. I was so, so, tempted to touch it, just to say I had, but I honored the conservator's golden rule of not touching. I was also given permission to show these photos on our website, as long as I or anyone else did not use them for personal profit. I visited Chatham in mid winter, and so all of the galleries were closed to visitors back in 2011. I didn't see anything but the Bellona model. Maybe someday I can get back and go through the galleries! Great memories! Mark -
PIllars
SJSoane replied to allanyed's topic in Building, Framing, Planking and plating a ships hull and deck
And here is my reconstruction of the Bellona upper deck with pillar locations as I could see them in the model, or what logically made sense given the location of the beams above and below (none in the waist, of course): -
PIllars
SJSoane replied to allanyed's topic in Building, Framing, Planking and plating a ships hull and deck
Hi Allan, Peering down into the first model of the Bellona (74) 1760, I saw mostly pillars down the center, but in a few places there are two beside each other. They double up at the wheel, as you see below, at the capstans, at some partners. There seems to be some practical reason for the switch, adapting to particular circumstances in a particular location. At the wheel, it is to line up with the bitts; at the capstan it is to find clearance in a tight spot behind a ladder. I found it helpful to draw the pillars on the deck plans overlaid with each other, so I could see where the tops and bottoms of the pillars would hit. Then I could see why the shipwright (or at least, the Bellona model builder) made adjustments to the general rule of one row down the center. Just one more piece of information to add to your design challenge! Best wishes, Mark
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