Civil War Ironclad USS ST. LOUIS by thorn21g - 1:24 - POF - Gateway Model Shipcrafter's Guild

[kurtvd19]

I totally forgot that the hull was deeper than the riverboat hulls and would flood.  These were not capped off at all and would have sunk the boat real quick.  As Emily Latilla's Mother would have said "Never mind".

Kurt

[kurtvd19]

The ash was scraped and swept into the tubes and gravity took over.  No pumps.  They were not tiny so clinkers probably were no problem.  I barely remember clinkers because we switched from coal to gas when I was pretty darn young but what I remember was they were not big.

[Keith Black]

 Kurt, sorry, I thought the slurry of ash and water was 'pumped' overboard via steam pressure, i.e. pump/pumped.  I agree about clinker size but being jagged edged I can foresee clinkers lodging together to form a jam. Yeah, it's been awhile since dad heated our house with coal. Another time, another world. 

[mtaylor]

Where's that "Wayback Machine" when we really need it????    It looks like the entire boiler area was below the waterline including the overhead.  Would that be a correct assumption?   For the ash to have water added and turned into a slurry might sound reasonable.  But the pumps would have to have been made of metal.  But unless there's items that went unrecovered like slurry pumps, that seems to be a dead end.  

 

Just curious... how much would a ton of coal generate?  Could the ash have been removed while underway?  

[Keith Black]

 

 

Mark, I know diddly about ironclads but from the below it seems that a steam powered metal pump could have been in operation in 1860? Interesting history on pumps. 

 

https://www.pumpsandsystems.com/history-pumps-through-years

 

1848 In Seneca Falls, N.Y., Seabury S. Gould purchases the interests of Edward Mynderse and H.C. Silsby in Downs, Mynderse & Co., forming Downs & Co., later known as Goulds Manufacturing Company.

1849 Goulds casts and assembles the world's first all-metal pump.

[Roger Pellett]

Steamships burning solid fuel have existed on the Great Lakes into recent times.  One still sails; SS Badger on Lake Michigan.  For the past 130 years or so, fuel of choice has been coal. Therefore, Great Lakes experience may differ from your river boats if they burned wood.

 

A typical Great Lakes marine boiler was fitted with three cylindrical furnaces.  Each of these furnaces was cleaned once per four hour shift.  This involved raking the fire from the furnace onto the fire plates in front of the boiler and raking the clinkers aside. The clinkers were hosed down and shoveled into the ash gun.  The ash gun used high pressure water  to lift the clinkers over the side.

 

If the gunboats burned wood exclusively it is certainly possible that crews did not have to deal with clinkers that would plug furnace grates.   Also, the boats that Alan Bates wrote about, unlike the gunboats, carried their boilers at or above main deck level so that the pipe through the bottom of the hull could work.

 

On the other hand, ash guns were simple machines without moving parts, and the doctor would have supplied high pressure water.  The ash gun was nothing more than a receptacle with a high pressure water pipe and a discharge pipe over the side.  The discharge was above the waterline to prevent water from being siphoned aboard.

 

Roger

[mbp521]

1 hour ago, mtaylor said:

It looks like the entire boiler area was below the waterline including the overhead.  Would that be a correct assumption?

Mark,  pretty much a safe assumption. From my research and the picture below it shows the top of the boiler tubes were pretty much even with the Gun Deck level.  These boats drew about six feet of water putting the waterline just about a foot below the knuckle of the casements, and the majority of the boiler below the waterline with maybe the exception of the top foot or so. 
 

 

-Brian

[johnhoward]

USS St. Louis Ironclad Model followers:

Thanks for all of your interesting comments and new ideas on coaling and ash removal. If you don't recall our previous interesting dialogue on these  issues, please check page 3 of this Forum especially before and after Roger Pellett's Posting #87 on January 11, 2018. We are still trying to identify the methods that would have been appropriate in 1861 for "City Class" Ironclads.

 

JOHNHOWARD

[johnhoward]

Regarding boiler protection;

Brian,

The boilers themselves were pretty well protected by the Side Armor and the gun deck structure, however the boiler steam drum, not shown in the photograph, is mounted on top of, and across the aft end of the 5 boilers, contains " live steam" which is the most explosive part of the system, and is almost entirely exposed above the deck. To make matters worse, although the 2.5 inch thick steel armor covers the side casements above the chine and 5-ft below, the side casement backup wood frame is not continuous(like the bow & stern) leaving about 50% air space weakness. The boat carpenters were continuously working on auxiliary gun deck barricades to correct this weakness.

 

JOHNHOWARD

[johnhoward]

Regarding Slag & Ash Removal

 KURTVD Posting # 205 , Fig 60  Boiler/Firebox Configuration compares generally very well with my #206 Flue Fire Tube Boiler/Firebox Reconstruction for the USS Cairo which shows its' ash pit sitting on top of the lower hull interior planking and keel structure, as there is no ash well below the floor on the "City Class"Ironclads. The floor planking of the USS Cairo hull actually forms the surface of the Fire-room floor which is clad with iron sheeting where the ash & slag from the fireboxes is raked for further disposal. The "Doctor" Auxiliary steam driven pump sits on this same surface in the engine room immediately aft off the boilers. ( See enclosed: David Meager's excellent sketch of this area} The "Doctor" draws river water up thru the exterior bottom planking, past the hull structural frames and thru the interior floor planking and continually feeds the boilers and provides other auxiliary functions.(See attached photo of USS St. Louis Model) I hope this clarifies the slag and ash removal configuration limitations on these "City Class" Ironclads.

 

JOHNHOWARD

[Cathead]

Here's yet another approach to ash removal. Bertrand (1865) didn't have ash wells within the hull, but rather a brick-lined trough that ran from under the fireboxes out to a hole in one guard. It appears that ashes were simply shoveled into this trough and then swept/shoved overboard, never passing through the hull. This is shown in the archeological drawings and recreated on my model as shown below:

 

 

Obviously this wouldn't work for the ironclads, since their boiler room is below the waterline. But I thought it would contribute to the broader discussion.

[Roger Pellett]

A practical solution would have involved a mechanical hoist that raised ashes to main deck level.  The ashes could then have been dumped into a gutter like Eric shows on his model and sluiced overboard with high pressure water. This hypothetical solution has the benefit of not requiring use of technology that might not of existed at the time.

 

Roger

[timboni]

 

Hi all, and many apologies for this two-year delay in posting pictures from the Gateway Shipcrafters' USS St. Louis 1/24 scale model for the Missouri Civil War Museum. I have had considerable difficulty downloading pictures from the Newsletters, and the attempts to copy and paste from the Newsletters themselves have been fruitless. This difficulty will not be present for the more recent ones, as I have pictures from the Newsletters already downloaded. SO, hopefully these pictures will work. I am going to only post a few, as sort of a test, along with captions. These are from April of 2019. If this works, expect a flood of 'em over the next month or so. Please let me know if there is any problem viewing these pictures.

 

And by the way, my current email is timboni7263@att.net. My phone number is 314-761-5435. Please feel free to contact me anytime. Here we go!

 

Tim Jovick

 

These are some random photos of the building of the cutters, using the bread-and-butter method, plus decking and one of the engines.. Photos and captions are by Bill Kammermeyer.

 

Bread and butter layup for cutter mold. Just sand and file the high spots down to the low spots and you have a hull.

 

Bow deck fully planked and trunneled

 

Steam engines with valve lifters in place

[mbp521]

Tim, so excited to see more of these pictures of the build. They look to have posted perfectly. Can’t wait to see more. Keep them coming! 
 

-Brian

[BANYAN]

Great to see you back

 

Pat

[johnhoward]

Tim,

Many thanks to you, Bill and Kurt for your efforts on photo recovery..

JOHNHOWARD

 

[johnhoward]

Roger, (Regarding your Post #222)

We totally agree with your assessment on ash # slag disposal. (See my Post #202) The problem on the City Class Ironclads is that the only exit we have found from the Fire-Room in the hold, is up a vertical wall-mounted ladder, thru a horizontal doorway, out onto the gun deck, and thru an open gun port in either the forward or side casements. This is potentially a very dangerous path with a bucket of slag and ash where a single spark and gun-powder residue on the deck could spell disaster. As we indicated in Posting #202, our current theory is the use of a hoisting winch & cable thru a hatch on the unarmed Hurricane Deck, which is actually also the Fire-Room ceiling, to lift a bucket of slag & ash directly from the Fire-Room floor and then over the side thru the Hammock Rails. 

The only problem with this idea is that , so far, we have only positively identified one  such hatch on the Hurricane Deck and it inside of the pilot house for the captain, navigator & steersman.  Such a hatch would be aft of the pilothouse, roughly between the smoke stacks, if it exists.

 

JOHNHOWARD

[BANYAN]

That is exactly how the ash was dispersed on the Victoria (1855) also John, except that rather than a gun port, an ash chute was used.  Once hoisted by bucket/box or whatever, it was transferred to a 'special purpose' wheelbarrow.  The ash was then emptied through an opening at the appropriate height for the wheelbarrow on the leeward side.  The chutes had fold down/up parts to allow the ash to be 'pushed' further outboard from the ship's side.  The type I used are shown below (at 1:72) but have yet to be fitted - I am thinking of fixing the size of the eyebolts/eyes also.

 

 

Your model is coming along beautifully.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[johnhoward]

Brian, 

I think I have found the solution to our ash and slag removal and it's so simple I can't believe we didn't think of it before! They didn't need a hatch in the Hurricane deck for this activity because they already had two perfectly safe ventilation funnels that protruded thru the Fire-Room ceiling [actually the Hurricane Deck]. All they had to do was temporarily remove the upper funnel section and drop a line with a hook from a portable winch to pull up a bucket of ash & slag and dump it over the Hurricane deck edge or into some other container. The  two ventilation funnels protrude thru the Fire-Room ceiling near the two ladders  near the forward wall on Ashley's NPS drawing. We chose to put this ladder on the forward wall so it doesn't block the doors to the coal bins on the port and starboard sides. Many contemporary photos show these ventilation funnels, which have at least 2 sections, raised, lowered or removed all together. I think their best option would be simply to remove the upper section which would leave a shorter straight section of ducting to transverse the past gun deck into the fire room. This would be the duct seen protruding thru the boiler room wall in Captain Walke's sketch, posted earlier. If you line up the smokestacks in these photos, the funnel location works out perfectly. 

 

JOHNHOWARD

[johnhoward]

Pat, 

Thanks for your information. I was typing my post while you were sending yours. Do you have any photos showing this activity, the vessel, or the equipment they used? We knew it must be something simple because nobody ever mentioned it in print.

 

Thanks again,

JOHNHOWARD

[Keith Black]

19 minutes ago, johnhoward said:

All they had to do was temporarily remove the upper funnel section

 Johnhoward, I don't think this would have been practical IMHO. At a ton an hour funnel removal would have been a constant. Funnels were heavy bolted together iron lumps with preventer chains anchoring them. The only thing tall enough to lift from would have been the other funnel. A crane to remove the funnels would have shown up on the photographs. 

[mtaylor]

20 minutes ago, Keith Black said:

 Johnhoward, I don't think this would have been practical IMHO. At a ton an hour funnel removal would have been a constant. Funnels were heavy bolted together iron lumps with preventer chains anchoring them. The only thing tall enough to lift from would have been the other funnel. A crane to remove the funnels would have shown up on the photographs. 

Are you thinking the main funnels or those small ventilator ones?   This problem of ash removal is a puzzlement for sure.  Obviously, once it's figured out, there will be a round of facepalms.  But for now, it still seems like a head scratcher.   

[Keith Black]

4 minutes ago, mtaylor said:

Are you thinking the main funnels or those small ventilator ones

 Mark, I thought JH was talking about the furnace funnels, I missed the key word  "ventilation". My apologies Johnhoward. 

[mbp521]

1 hour ago, johnhoward said:

They didn't need a hatch in the Hurricane deck for this activity because they already had two perfectly safe ventilation funnels that protruded thru the Fire-Room ceiling [actually the Hurricane Deck]. All they had to do was temporarily remove the upper funnel section and drop a line with a hook from a portable winch to pull up a bucket of ash & slag and dump it over the Hurricane deck edge or into some other container.

Johnhoward,

 

I think you may be on to something there. That seems like a totally viable solution. I went back and looked at some of the photos and found the one of the Mound City. It clearly shows the port forward funnel either removed and leaned up against the chimney, or at least extended out a good bit further than normal. I know this may be stretching it a bit, but they also look to have a cover over the hammock racks in the general area of where they could be dumping something overboard.

 

Just additional food for thought.

 

 

-Brian

Edited March 23, 2022 by mbp521

[Keith Black]

 Brian, that's directly over a gun port. Even if the gun ports had been closed during dumping, when they were reopened would ash dust have been an issue?   

[mbp521]

2 minutes ago, Keith Black said:

 Brian, that's directly over a gun port. Even if the gun ports had been closed during dumping, when they were reopened would ash dust have been an issue?   

Keith,

 

I had thought the same thing, and that is why I threw in the tarp cover idea. This could have been thrown over the side of the casement between the gun ports to allow the ash & slag to slide down the incline without damaging the painted surface. I know this is far stretch, just trying to toss some ideas out there that were feasible. Without Mark's "way back machine" we may never really know. But it sure is fun coming up with theories.

 

-Brian

[Keith Black]

  Ash dumped over the side dry in any breeze would be everywhere and in every mechanism. One would think that the most manageable state of ash would be ash mud. A ton of coal equals 200 pounds (10%) of ash. Burning a ton of coal an hour would equal 4,800 pounds of ash in a 24 hour period. To make ash slurry requires 50% water and 50% ash, ash mud is 25% water and 75% ash. Water weight required to make ash mud in a 24 hour period would be 1,200 pounds plus 4,800 ponds of ash equals a total waist weight of 6,000 pounds. To manually remove 6,000 pounds in 50 pound loads would require 120 trips in 24 hours or 5 trips per hour equals 12 minutes per trip. I think that's manually manageable but it's a constant grind. 

[mbp521]

Here is another thought. To keep the ash from being blown around everywhere they employed an ash chute to dump the waste overboard. This could be similar to the trash chutes you sometimes see on multi-story buildings under construction.
 

Maybe something like this. 

 

The chute would have been flexible, made of canvas or asbestos and could have been folded or rolled up for easy stowage. 
 

-Brian

[Roger Pellett]

When all else fails, (1) Form follows function, and (2) what technology was available when these vessels were active.

 

(1) ash disposal was a routine and constant job for crews on all vessels fueled with solid fuels.  The boilers could not wait for a convenient time to dispose of ash.  In preparing for action the black gang would likely clean fires and dispose of ash.  Removing hurricane deck ventilators every time furnace grates were cleaned would seem to be doing things the hard way and could expose the crew to unnecessary hazard.

 

Fine ash particles would fall thru the furnace grates into the ash pit.  These were unlikely to require immediate disposal.  The problem was the larger clinkers that plugged furnace grates and blocked combustion air.

 

The ash disposal openings on coal fired Lake Freighters are small, 6in +- round holes in the side of the vessel. Indistinguishable from other openings.

 

(2) By far the most convenient ash disposal solution was a hydraulic ash gun that lifted a slurry from the boiler deck to a level above the waterline, and over the side.  Ash guns used on coal fired Lake Freighters were capable of using HP water to eject large clinkers.  When were these simple machines invented and first used?

 

We know that these gunboats had an unlimited supply of water, direct from the river, and powerful steam pumps to pressurize it.

 

Once ash was lifted above the waterline either hydraulically or mechanically is could be sluiced overboard with readily available HP water.  The ash disposal opening in the hull or casemate would be small enough not to show up on old photos.

 

Roger

 

 

 

 

[johnhoward]

Thanks to all that have responded to this topic. Now we have a whole new set of issues to address but I don't see any "show stoppers", yet.

On the issue of unlimited water supply, my research of the City Class Ironclads reveals only one major river water intake source as being thru the keel into "The Doctor", which is powered by a very small steam piston, and which primarily serves to maintain boiler water safety level among other minor utility purposes (See Photos with Posting #220). Water from "The Doctor" was pumped directly into the Mud Drums below the boilers. The only other pumps I found were manually operated and used to remove bilge water. Where should I look to find a more powerful steam driven water pump?

I have found several definitions for the "Steamboat Coal" size then in use, but apparently this is rather small like we could use on a Bar-B-Que grill. Would this size coal still fuse into larger slag? or would it remain ash? The Fire-Room is relatively very small, yet it has practically exclusive  use of 2 of the 4   ventilation funnels on board an ironclad. Temporarily removing the upper curved "bell" shaped section of one funnel would reduce the ventilator air draw or inflow, if the ironclad was in motion but it wouldn't totally disrupt ventilation. The bulk of boiler heat is constantly expelled thru the large iron grating on the centerline of the Hurricane Deck, directly aft of the smokestacks. The Fire-Room was completely surrounded at the hull floor level by the fire boxes on the aft side and coal-bins on the other 3 sides. Working here would be a living hell.

Admittedly, contemporary photographs are very frustratingly poor proof, but there was a significant amount of the original USS Cairo" original fabric" recovered, especially in the lower hull section which was buried in mud for 100 years with many small metal components.  Unfortunately, very little of the Hurricane deck survived and original reconstructions are sometimes unreliable.

So far, we haven't identified any new slag & ash removal technology which was definitely in use in 1861, that is also compatible with the ironclad configuration, except possibly the  manual hoist and bucket. Once we can get the bucket of slag and ash onto the hurricane deck, we can use a wheelbarrow and a portable metal chute to safely dispose it over the down-wind side casement. This equipment would probably have been stored in the Hurricane Deck House forward of the paddle wheel house where the ship's bell and other equipment was found by recovery divers. A lot of speculation?

 

However, when you think about it, with any photographs,  we have a tremendous amount of material for modeling these ironclads compared to any pre Civil War ships.  

 

JOHNHOWARD