HMS Blandford by hamilton - FINISHED - from Corel HMS Greyhound - 1:100

[hamilton]

Thanks a lot John! I'm liking your CW Morgan, too - a very complex and interesting build!

hamilton

[hamilton]

Well I had hoped to begin the masting this evening by cutting and shaping the bowsprit. But somehow I found myself resealing our bathtub and painting the bathroom ceiling instead! How annoying....

 

In any case, with the little time left to me tonight, I did a bit of a masting comparison - Corel, versus Lees, versus Goodwin. I found wide variation between all three of these sources as to the lengths of the masts and spars....Here is the general rundown...

 

Corel, by and large, provides for taller masts and longer spars - in some cases by as much as 40 or 50mm!!! (as with the main & fore topgallant yards).

 

Using the proportions found in Lees' Masting & Rigging of English Ships of War, we find much more conservative numbers. In many cases (especially for the lower and topsail yards, these more or less exactly mesh with Goodwin, but in other cases there are significant differences - as with the topgallant yards, where at scale there is a 10mm difference in each case.

 

Goodwin lands in about the middle in most cases except where, as noted, he agrees with Lees....though in one important instance (the main mast) he overshoots Corel by a good 10mm (at scale, obviously) - though we're calculating the mast length from the step on the keelson, rather than from the lower deck, as in the case of Corel....

 

Here are some highlights (all measurements are at 1:100)

 

Main Mast

 

Corel        -        199mm (from lower deck)

Lees         -        189mm (uncertain, but I presume this is a measurement from the step in the hold of the ship)

Goodwin  -         208mm (taken from the step in the hold)

 

Main topmast

 

Corel       -         140mm

Lees        -         113mm

Goodwin -         121mm

 

Bowsprit

Corel      -         101mm (outboard section only)

Lees      -          111mm (again, one assumes a length inboard, but hard to say how much....)

Goodwin -         88mm outboard

 

Fore Lower Yard

Corel       -        169mm

Lees        -        161.5mm

Goodwin  -        161.5mm

 

Main Topgallant Yard

Corel        -         86mm

Lees        -          66.5mm

Goodwin  -         78.5mm

 

Anyway, you can get a sense of my conundrum....The commitment to historical accuracy on the part of the kit manufacturer can possibly be ruled out. However, the disagreement between more trustworthy sources leaves doubt. Also - since it is difficult to determine the length of the masts at scale from Lees and Goodwin, since they are including in their calculation a section of the mast on the real vessel that will not be included on the model, it's hard to know exactly how to use them - at least for the lower masts and bowsprit.....Goodwin is easier here, since there is a 1:96 drawing of the longitudinal section of the Blandford that shows the masts stepped. All I need to do is calculate the 1:100 dimensions of the full masts and substract from this total the length of the mast below the lower deck (after converting from 1:96 to 1:100 - though how miniscule will this difference be?

 

So there it is....what to do? what to do? I'll have to spend a bit of time with my chart and make some decisions, but in the meantime, any and all advice is welcome!

hamilton

[aliluke]

I vote for Goodwin - down the middle, easier and no one is going to measure your masts and say "Oh no! You didn't follow Lees'".

 

My opinion and I admire your research - another dimension to our obsession...

 

Cheers

Alistair

[Blue Ensign]

Hi hamilton, the dimensions given by Goodwin in his Blandford book are the same as given in Table 5 of Lees relating to the 1719 Establishment (p196) ie 68' 6".

 

The figures given on Table 8 relating to the 1773 establishment (p198) are 67' 11". as near as makes no matter.

 

If you look at Section G in the Goodwin book you will see he gives the length of the masts below the partners (taken at the Upper deck level for single decked ships) in the case of the mainmast this is 14' 6" equivalent to 44mm at scale. You are really interested in the height above the partners which is easily calculated. To this you only need add the actual below decks length on your model to get the overall scale length.

 

I would suggest you mock up  the lower masts and see how they look to your eye before  before committing to the real thing.

 

B.E.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Blue Ensign

[harlequin]

season went well for her, its her first experience of a full international team and the fitness level goes up several notches, but its made me train with her too so the old bones are wondering what the hell is going on. The first planking on Bellona is progressing well, i'll post some pics in the coming days.

 

How did you get on with the dead eye strops/chains? on my Greyhound the were forever snapping. If you remember I redid my ratlines 3 times before I was happy with them.....drove me to drink..........Your build is looking brilliant and I think we can each pat each other on the back for turning an awkward model into something we can both be proud of. I imagine several Greyhounds get started and never completed. Anyway more press-ups are looming and .........a large malt whisky too.

[hamilton]

Thanks Alistair & BE!!

 

BE - I wonder if we're working from different editions of the Lees book - my p. 196 is the last page of the index (and of the book!) Nevertheless, the measurement 68' 6" is all I need to go on, since the mast & spar dimensions are taken from this root. I can get the length of the mast below the partners from the longitudinal section drawing in Goodwin - I imagine the difference between 1:96 (Goodwin) and 1:100 (Corel) are so small as to be negligible....

 

In my version of Lees there are no tables outlining the mast & spar dimensions of the various establishments. There are rigging tables for different classes of ships that correspond to pre-1719, 1719, 1745, etc., and also an appendix which gives prose descriptions of the proportions of masts, spars & rigging lines....Numerical tables would be much more useful as a tool for consultation!

 

Anyway, thanks again I'll draw up my own tables again and have a crack at the bowsprit this evening....

hamilton

[hamilton]

Hi Harlequin:

 

Sound like fun! Glad to hear she's making you keep up!

 

As for the deadeye strops, yes they are very soft! I broke only 2, though, and got through them pretty quickly. I pressed lightly down on them to make them more round in shape and then inserted the deadeye first at the bottom (where the strop was most likely to break) and then "folded" the top over if you see what I mean...Had to do some touching up. The strops are not ideal and if I had more energy I might have replaced them with my own brass wire versions. However....they will suffice.

 

It's nice to be done (more or less) the hull - though honestly I thought my problems with the kit would end there (since I've already worked out a new rigging plan based on Lees and Goodwin's Anatomy of the Ship. However, as my post regarding the mast and spar lengths indicates, things continue to be confusing! 

 

Bye for now

hamilton

[hamilton]

PS BE - I now see what you were referring to - section G (Masts & spars) in Goodwin! Thanks a lot!

 

It will be difficult to calculate the below decks length of the masts as they would be on the model, since there is nowhere to sink a tick strip down into the "hold"....I may simply assume that the below partners measurement given by Goodwin is the same at scale on my model and go from there....path of least resistance and at least some marginal accuracy - at least the basic reference point is reliable!

 

Thanks again

hamilton

[Blue Ensign]

My edition of Lees is the 1984 revised edition and runs to 212 pages. No matter all the relevant information is in the Goodwin book.

 

The main problem I had, in relation to Steel in my case, was working out the below decks lengths, which in the kit are not true as the masts sit in the false keel and bear no relation to actual lengths between the keel and partners at the Upper deck level. When I took a scale deduction from the one drawing given in the Swan ffm book the mast seemed to come up far too short above decks so for this reason I left the masts over long to start with, and used mock ups to judge the final height.

 

B.E.

[hamilton]

Thanks BE 

 

Yes this makes sense to me - I re-did the main mast calculation using first the drawing on p.93 of Goodwin, and then Lees calculation starting from Goodwin's overall measurements (2.42 x the beam of the ship) and substracting the below-decks section taken from the longitudinal plan provided by Goodwin - the result in both cases was 165mm for the length of the mast above the partners - this seems a little short to me...I, too, may cut it a bit long (perhaps about 180mm), though I'll try to keep the dimensions of the head, cheeks, bibs, caps and so on to the measurements given by Goodwin....

 

Quick(?) question -- how did your elongation of the main mast influence the calculation of the other mast/spar dimensions? I'm thinking that an elongated main would have to result in elongated fore and mizzen masts. But did it influence your calculation of the dimensions of the topmasts and topgallants and the yards as well? Or did you calculate these in some other way?

 

My Lees is the 1979 first printing....which explains the difference! 

hamilton

[trippwj]

Hamilton -

 

you may want to check out the Masting & rigging spreadsheet that Danny Vadas developed which takes your input based on the specific establishment and class then calculates the spars etc.  it is available here: http://modelshipworldforum.com/ship-model-masts-and-yards.php

 

Main mast (from step) is 210 mm (scale) 68.9 ' (1:1)

Main top mast - 126.1 mm

Bowsprit - 124 mm

Fore lower yard - 161.4 mm

Main t'gallant yard - 66.4 mm

 

EDIT - fixed my silly typo on the yards.

Edited September 4, 2013 by trippwj

[hamilton]

Thanks Wayne:

 

Unfortunately I can't use Danny's spreadsheet on my Mac!! I'll have to check it out on a PC when next I'm able....great idea, though!

hamilton

[hamilton]

Of course it would have been most helpful to take direct measurements from Goodwin's book & scale down to 1:100, which is what I spent the last hour doing......The only issue remains the lower masts and bowsprit, which are difficult to calculate because of the obvious difference between a kit with a false centre keel and a real ship....for these I have gone with a longer measurement above the partners, as follows

 

Main mast = 182mm

Fore mast = 170mm

Mizzen mast = 150mm

Bowsprit = 101mm

 

The extra length can be shaved off depending on how the masts look relative to one another and their tops/yards......

 

That's all on this for now - back to the bench!!

hamilton

[Blue Ensign]

Thanks BE 

 

Quick(?) question -- how did your elongation of the main mast influence the calculation of the other mast/spar dimensions? I'm thinking that an elongated main would have to result in elongated fore and mizzen masts. But did it influence your calculation of the dimensions of the topmasts and topgallants and the yards as well? Or did you calculate these in some other way?

 

My Lees is the 1979 first printing....which explains the difference! 

hamilton

 

I worked out all the upper masts  and yards relative to the correct proportions, as given in Steel, it all starts with the Main topmast relative to the overall true length of the mainmast.

 

For the Main mast I then allowed an extra length at the presumed partners where all the quartering and tapering starts, and then added the actual length of dowel below decks to fit the kit arrangement. The Fore and Mizen masts followed the same  procedure and proportions relative to the Mainmast.

 

This gave me the leeway to make final adjustments from the bottom of the masts to suit my eye. From the one reference I had in the Swan book relating to the Foremast the drawing would suggest from an overall length of mast of 56' with just over 19' below the partners to the keel.

 

This left 36.75' or 175mm at scale, looking far too short in relation to the model. My actual length which sits well with my eye is 242mm which has it happens is only 6mm longer than the kit plan! rather annoying really.

 

B.E.

[hamilton]

Thanks again BE - I appreciate the time you've taken in helping me with this! I'm assuming that the foremast measurement you quote as your final length (242mm) is the total length of the mast, including whatever is below decks....I'm working at a much smaller scale, but I arrived at a main mast length (on the model) of 182mm. The calculation of the other masts & spars will be from the scaled full mast length as calculated from goodwin - 209mm total length - with the exception of the lower fore and mizzen, which will be calculated from my adjusted above-decks height for the main mast (that is, 182mm) with a bit extra added for the seating of the masts....

 

Thanks again for your help!

hamilton

[hamilton]

OK time for another update.

 

I've begun the masting with the bowsprit, which is now outfitted with most of the necessary rigging elements and installed on the model. I think I have more or less worked through the confusion over mast & spar lengths - thanks to the help of BE - and have come up with what I think is a good compromise between information provided in Lees and Goodwin and what looks pleasing to my eye. The lengths of the bowsprit and lower masts will be a bit longer than the scale calculations taken from Goodwin - like BE the scale lengths that I arrived at from Goodwin seemed a little short to my eye....all other mast and spar measurements will be derived from the scale measurement of the main mast as given by Goodwin, using Lees as the guide to calculation.

 

The bowsprit was cut and shaped from a 6mm dowel to a length of 111mm. This is longer than Goodwin's measurement by about 10mm, but I think it will look better on the model. 

 

 

 

Goodwin shows the bowsprit outfitted with bee blocks and though at 1:100 these are very small, I decided to give it a try. I shaped the bees from a 1/32 x 3/16" strip of lime. I filed a section of the top of the bowsprit to accept the bees and then installed the bee blocks underneath - these were 1mm x 1mm strips of light walnut. Turned out ok.

 

 

 

I used the same 1mm x 1mm strip to make the gammoning cleats and the stop chocks for the collars.

 

 

I couldn't get a good photo of it, but I also installed a sling cleat for the spritsail yard, including a 1/16" bit of pinstripe tape as an iron buffering bar on which the sling will lie.

 

I'll continue this in another post since for some reason I'm not allowed to upload many photos in a single post...

hamilton

[hamilton]

Corel supplies laser cut walnut caps for the main and fore lower masts. These are each provided in 3 1.5mm thick parts that are glued together to form the final cap. I will likely use these when the time comes.

 

The bowsprit cap, as well as the mizzen mast cap and the fore and main topmast caps are cast metal and are useless - first because they make it impossible to add rigging features and second because the holes in them are not fully bored, and with only handtools to work with I could never get them into shape.

 

So, I'm faced with scratch building 4 mast caps - the bowsprit and mizzen caps are larger (about 2mm x 5mm) while the topmast caps are quite small (and may prove very difficult to craft...). Anyway, here is the only shot I have of the rough mast cap that I made. I gradually drilled holes at the appropriate locations and at an appropriate angle to account for the rake of the bowsprit. I then used round and square needle files to get the finished shape. After I took this shot, I sanded the sides down a bit more to match the size of Corel's part - something they seemed to get right.

 

 

The bobstays are a bit of an ambiguity. Goodwin (and Corel) shows only one, but Lees mentions that the 1719 Establishment allowed for 2 - he does not mention as he does elsewhere if this was only a practice on larger ships. I've taken the liberty of adding a second bobstay, less for historical reasons, then because I think it will look good.

 

However, Corel suggests using 5mm deadeyes for the bobstays and bowsprit shrouds but provides 4mm cast metal hearts for the fore stay, for preventer stay and main stay. Take a look.

 

 

I initially thought of ditching the metal hearts and making my own of a comparable size to the deadeyes, but again to my eye the deadeyes seemed too big and clunky for the model. So I decided to replace them with 3mm deadeyes, and to stick with the metal hearts.....sorry!!

 

Anyway, after agonising over how to make a single collar for all the deadeyes and the heart for the fore stay, I looked again at Lees only to discover that each of these rigging elements was put on with its own collar....! Filled with relief I went ahead and attached the remainder of the rigging elements, including

 

-- 3mm deadeyes for the bowsprit shrouds

-- 3mm deadeyes for the inner and outer bobstays

-- 4mm hearts for the forestay and fore preventer stay

-- ringbolts p/s on the upper sides of the cap for the bowsprit horses

-- two 3mm single blocks p/s on the lower sides of the cap for the spritsail lifts

-- two ringlbolts on the lower forward face of the cap for the jibboom footropes

-- a 4mm double block on the bottom of the cap for the spritsail jeers

-- a 4mm single block married to a 3mm single block for the fore topmast stay and the jib sail staysail downhaul.

-- a blackened brass ring service as a traveller

 

I also added the jibboom (3mm dowel cut to 72mm and tapered appropriately), the jibboom gammoning, the main stay heart and the bowsprit gammoning....here is the finished product....

 

 

 

 

 

All in all an eventful few days. On and on it goes....

hamilton

[hamilton]

Finally here's a shot of an upcoming challenge....

 

 

Any advice on what to do with these would be greatly appreciated!! I don't think I can make these tiny lanterns from scratch, but I can't leave them raw...the figurehead poses a similar issue.....though it might be easier to find an alternative for that....

hamilton

[Blue Ensign]

Nicely done on the Bowsprit rigging hamilton

 

Re the lanterns: for kit provided stuff they don't look bad for style and six sided is good for the period, presumably they are solid metal?

 

The real thing would probably have been made of metal but painted to represent wood, so you could paint it a sort of yellow ochrery colour to tone in with the  model. The glazed areas could be painted appropriately and perhaps finished in a high gloss to reflect light.

 

I am currently  trying trying to make something of the Pegasus lantern and I am using the Caldercraft 1:72 Victory stern lanterns.They come in three sizes and if you wanted to go for etch rather than solid the smaller ones may fit the bill.

 

The main central lantern is 23mm h x12mm  dia. the two side lanterns are 21mm h x11mm d. and theTop lantern is 16mm h x 8.5mm d.

 

The down side is they are somewhat out of period being Octagonal in shape.

 

Just a thought .

 

B.E.

[aliluke]

Hi Hamilton

You really have headed into the depths of scratch model making with all of the research and testing of ideas. And it all looks very good indeed! I can't imagine an out of the box kit ever satisfying you again. A great progression - one day I may catch up with you.

 

Cheers

Alistair

[hamilton]

Thanks BE:

 

I will most likely try to doctor these lanterns - ordering is not really in the realm of possibility. I checked out your work on the Pegasus lanterns, and of course - they look amazing! 

 

I have a "yellow ochre" paint that does not really look like the ochre I see used on model ship's - it's an artist acrylic from Golden that has a little too much green in it to be useful....not sure how I'll address this issue yet, but since there's no pressure to complete the lanterns before moving on with the masting and rigging, I'll just mull it over for now....

 

Thanks again BE - you're always a wealth of great ideas and useful resources!

hamilton

[hamilton]

Thanks Alistair! It's possible it won't!

 

But I don't know....after all the problems I've experienced with the adaptation, I might for my next build just do something right out of the box...for one thing, we'll have a new baby and there will be less time....for another, my next build is a gift (as many of them have been) and I'd like to complete it in time for the recipient's birthday - in June....

 

Anyway, we'll see - when I get to my Bellona, I may again turn to the AOS for inspiration and adaptation (I hesitate to say "improvement")

 

Your Pegasus is shaping up very well, by the way!

hamilton

[hamilton]

Well there has been some progress on the Blandford, but I have no photos to show for it yet, unfortunately. I've not been documenting the last stages of the build as closely as I have in the past, mostly since I have much less time for modelling with the start of another academic year. So while I'm at the bench, I prefer to work rather than take photos. There will be some in the near future, I promise....

 

I've spent the last 3 days puzzling through the fore mast. Lots of trial and error following all the questions about calculations of length. The final lengths of the lower masts I posted above. I cut the dowels to length (actually about 10mm longer in each case) and dry fit them on deck, checking the look and trimming until i got something that looked right.

 

The fore mast has been a kind of experiment. Shaping it and squaring the head was not a problem, but what to do with the head was another matter. I added some 1/16 pinstripe tape as iron bands, which I thought added a nice subtle detail. I then thought to add the vertical battens, which I made out of 1/32 x 1/32 lime. I installed these (2 on each side as illustrated in Goodwin), and then sanded them down even thinner to try and approximate the very small scale. I thought they looked pretty good, but once they were done it was clear that they threw off the dimensions of the other elements (specifically the top and the topmast/cap) so I did away with them and had to strip the head and re-do it. 

 

I did add rope woldings (5) and scratch built the bibs and cheeks since the laser cut ones provided were nowhere near the mark. Making the top was really a lot of fun, and I think it'll look great once it's finally installed and adorned with railing and topmast shroud deadeyes....

 

Anyway, as I say, there isn't a huge amount of time for modelling in my world, as there is during the summer, so I won't be posting here quite as frequently as before. I'll try to keep my updates with photos, since all this reading is dull work if there are no photos to draw the eye....

 

Hope you're all enjoying yourselves....

hamilton

[augie]

Watching your work has been a pleasure.  There is no question in my mind that you have great talent and desire, much of which has yet to show itself.  Your interplay with BE reveals that.

 

Work at the pace that fits into your life.  We'll all still be here waiting to admire.

[mtaylor]

Hamilton,

 

What Augie said... 

[hamilton]

Thanks Augie and Mark! I will, of course, be dedicating a portion of my scarce time to following your builds!!

hamilton

[riverboat]

Your work is very impressive Hamilton...... take a breather, you deserve it

Frank

[hamilton]

Thanks Frank - I've admired your Supply build from afar and feel very flattered by your words! Bye for now

hamilton

[hamilton]

OK so I'm working from home today and I thought I'd take a break and load some photos. Lots to do for work so I'll make it quick....

 

First we have the bowsprit standing rigging - shrouds and bobstays. Goodwin shows one, but Lees says that 2 were carried after 1719, so I went with Lees...

 

 

 

So for some reason I'm not able to upload more photos than this in this post....not sure what's going on - I'll try to continue in another....

hamilton

[hamilton]

OK let's try again.....

 

Next after fiddling with the lengths of the lower masts, here is what I arrived at....

 

 

These are just the raw dowels set in the mast holes - the rake in the mizzen isn't accurate and the rake in the foremast shouldn't be there at all. Anyway, this is just to demonstrate relative size...

 

Here are the foremast cheeks and bibbs which I made as 1 piece instead of separately, thinking that to make separate parts at this scale would simply be too tough.

 

 

Here is the foremast top, unfinished. Corel's laser cut part was accurate with respect to dimensions, except the thickness (1.5mm) which would have made the top much too bulky after adding the planking and the margins. So I traced the laser cut part onto a 1/32 thick sheet of lime and planked it using .5mm x 3mm strips. The margins are also 1/32"lime.

 

 

It looks a little mongrelly here, but after painting it's much better (sorry for the bad focus!)

 

 

Finally here are a couple of the shots of the fore mast dry fitted. It's not exactly finished yet - I still have to paint the bolsters and the mast head cleats and also reduce the latter's size so they don't look so bulky....

 

 

 

You may notice the holes drilled in the forward edge of the top for the crow's feet, which I plan on adding. My worry here is that the smallest blocks I have are 3mm, which even at that small size is too big for the crow's feet tackle. A suitable euphroe I can probably manage, but the tackle blocks will be a challenge. I'm not sure how much I can reduce the size of the 3mm blocks supplied by corel (which at any rate are very fragile things) though I might be able to do something with 1/8" blocks supplied by model shipways and leftover from previous builds (though these are slightly larger than the corel ones!!

 

Anyway that's a future worry. Hope you're all enjoying the day - now back to work!!

hamilton