How to avoid twisted lanyards

[Captain Al]

I'm having a heck of a time getting the lanyards between the deadeyes of shrouds from not twisting up.  They seem to want to go with the lay of the thread of the shroud above them.  I'm ok until I put the least bit of tension on the lanyards.  When I do, they spin around.  What are the possible causes of this and cures?  The deadeyes are starting out parallel to each other, and the lower ones (in the channel) are free to swivel.  Could it be that I just need to hold the shroud in place as I string the deadeyes?  It seems like this would just delay the twisting until I was done with the deadeyes and then whammo, it would twist up into the solid mass of 6 strands again.

[TBlack]

Why not secure the lower deadeye so that it doesn't swivel?

[Captain Al]

Well that's an interesting question because the lower deadeyes were secured when I started.  I had glued them into the channel slots so they would stay put while I glued on the cover to hold them.  After the twisting started I couldn't think of other reasons or cures so I broke the deadeyes and chains free to swivel.  This didn't fix the problem.  If both deadeyes were fixed I think it would be OK.  But you can't fix the deadeye on the shroud.  Maybe the shroud has to be prevented from twisting until the ratlines are tied on.  Maybe that holds them from spinning.  Does it make any sense that maybe the shrouds have been looped over the mast head upside down?  What I mean is that maybe if the lay of the tread was opposite to the tension being put on the deadeye it would hold it in position.

[amateur]

What kind of rope do you have. Twisting is often a result of rope that has some stretch in it.

The less 'elasticity' there is inthe rope, the less twisti g there is.

 

Jan

[BareHook]

When dealing with this issue I run a single lanyard and tighten to my planned tension. This determines how many twists the line does at that tension. I then reverse the twists to the correct count, wrap the lanyard and apply tension and everything straitens-out.

 

Ken

[Captain Al]

I suppose its cotton.  The kit's parts list says it is.  The shrouds are made with .5mm cotton thread.  Is there some way to take the stretch out of it before using it?  Maybe hang it with weights for a day or so?  Hang it wet?  Maybe a very light coat of watered down pva?

[Captain Al]

BH, that sounds very clever.  So what you're saying is that if a single lanyard causes the line to twist once, then six falls of the lanyard would twist it six times.  So you reverse twist the shroud six rotations (could actually be six half rotations but that's yet to be determined on mine) and secure it temporarily in that position while you thread and tension the deadeyes.  When that's done you release whatever is holding the shroud and voila -- it spins back to a good lie.

 

Going to try that.  Thanks.

[amateur]

I think you don't need the multipluing part: it is the tension it the shroud that makes it twist, not whether or not you fit the lanyard partially or completely.

 

Jan

[shiloh]

That twisting has been happening since ropes were first put to use in blocks. Pre stretching, using a load only heavy enough to take the stretch out and re-train the memory gained from being in a tight coil has often been used. There are reasons that a block should be free to turn under load so fixing the blocks, so there can be no turning, will cause the line to chafe at the block it self. Thread the tackle with the lay of the rope, using the side view, ‘right lay, thread clockwise’. Sometimes tumbling the bottom block through the tackle will reduce the tendency to twist, might need to undo and tumble the other way if you have the wrong result. Stoppers are recommended to be on hand in case there is a problem, seamen have been known to descend the hanging rig with a fid in an hand to use in opening up a twisted fall so the tackle can run, not a safe thing to do. Blocks and Tackle will want to twist if it can until the rig is well worked in to it’s job, works the best just before it needs replacing. Modelers have other options, but using the methods learned the hard way could cut down on some rigging problems. Can remember the old cowboys saying that to prepare your catch rope properly was to drag it behind your horse for half a day, never did that but did pull 300 foot surveyors chains many miles, puts a nice polish on a lightly rusted steel chain.

jud

Edited November 12, 2015 by shiloh

[Landlocked123]

Jud,

 

That sounds like the kind of good advice one can't find other than on MSW. Thanks

 

Best,

John

[Captain Al]

Second that Jud.  Thanks for the quick study.  I've redone the channel deadeyes to not only allow them to swivel but to put the deadeye holes in a more proper sequence (they were OK but not perfect).  I also closely inspected the deadeyes that I was using and found a few that were really bad; hardly any space at all between the holes.  I'm going to substitute the deadeyes that just arrived from Model Expo and look 100% better.  Also going to stretch the thread a bit and do everything else suggested.  So thanks to everyone who've contributed their thoughts.  Yes, only msw affords this kind of support.

[druxey]

Are you reeving the laniards in the right sequence? If they are on 'backwards', there will be the tendency to twist. (The twisting may well originate with the lay of the shroud above.)

[Captain Al]

I believe I am druxey.  I'm following the diagram in Peterson's rigging book.  But then again, I could be doing it perfectly; just backward.  I will give that a closer look.  If you picture the two deadeyes as facing you (like little smiley faces) and you are looking at their outboard face, I have the triangle of holes opposite each other -- the upper deadeye's top hole being up and the channel deadeye's being at the bottom.  So there is the maximum distance between these holes.  And the other two holes then line up straight up and down to their counterpart hole on the other channel.

 

Looking at it this way, I've started with a stopper knot on the inside of the upper deadeye's left hand hole, run the lanyard through it and through the lower deadeye's left hand hole from inside to out.  Then I've strung to the outside of the upper deadeye's center hole, back down to the lower center hole (coming in from the inside and out on the outside), then back up to the upper right hand hole (outside to in) and finally back to the lower right coming from inside to outside.  The rest of the lanyard is then strung back up and threaded through the stropping of the top deadeye, wrapped around the shroud two or three times and tied off. 

 

Like I said, I'm following Peterson's diagram but maybe its the inside outside sequence or the left to right sequence that is causing the twist cause maybe that's not in opposition to the lay of the shroud.  Or, as I've just realized while writing this, perhaps it comes down to which side of the boat you're looking at (or rigging).  What I've described here was facing the starboard side, with forward being on my right hand and aft being to the left.  So if I start by stringing the left hand holes first and finish with the right hand holes, I'm stringing aft most first and working the lanyard forward.  But if I do the same thing on port side, still starting with the left hand holes and finishing to my right, then I'm really stringing the lanyards different from the starboard side -- on port side this would mean I'm starting with the forward most holes and ending with the aft most holes.  Since the shroud's lay is the same whether port or starboard, this could mean something.  Or maybe it means nothing?

 

BTW, we talk a lot of the 'lay' of the rope (or thread) and I know its either right hand or left hand lay.  But how do you tell one from the other?  If you look at the rope it has lay lines running from the upper right to the lower left.  Is this right hand or left hand lay?  If you twist this same rope counter clockwise, it will open the strands.  If you twist it clockwise it tightens it.  Does this mean its right or left hand lay.  Is the vast majority of rope and thread now right hand lay? 

[Beef Wellington]

My thinking is a little different and purely from a physical standpoint.  If the deadeye in the channel is "free to swivel" the shroud will be free to twist, and it will do as you describe because the aft side of the deadeye will have a greater force on it, and hence will always have an element of torque - no way to change that no matter how the laniards are laced.  The simple solution is to simply ensure the deadeye on the channel fixed and the problem will disappear, the tension in the lanyards will keep the top and bottom deadeyes parallel.

[Stockholm tar]

Captain Al,

 

The lanyards are rove the same way, irrespective of the side, due to the right hand lay of the rope. There was and old saying which I believe went: 'starboard side forward side, port side aft side,' which referred to the starting point where the knot was (incidentally a 'Matthew Walker', not that it matters on a model!).

 

If it makes you feel any better, this twisting happened on 1:1 scale ships too! To prevent the upper deadeyes from turning and to keep them in line a light spar, the sheer pole, was fastened across the whole 'gang' just above them and below the ratlines. The lower deadeyes were normally fixed.

 

What I usually do is, after every turn through a hole, try and work all the twists out of the lanyard before reeving the next one. It seems to help.

Edited November 13, 2015 by Stockholm tar

[Mike Dowling]

If it is any help at all I found that waxing the lanyard thread helps and then just run the shrouds between finger and thumb before you start 'lacing' the ratlines and then keep the deadeye facing whichever way it choses. It worked for me.

[Captain Al]

Replying to both Mike, Beef and Stockholm....Mike, I think you're partially right in that if the lanyards were a bit stiffer they wouldn't spin as easily.  I have some real seizing line which is waxed but I think its too big to use.  So I might look to use the Vice Admiral's beeswax.

 

Beef, its funny that I had that same thought in mind when I was building the channels.  If the lowers are fixed, how could it twist?  What I found though was that the twist just started above the deadeye.  I guess I could be convinced either way, but for the moment I've freed them up and its working a lot better than it did when they were stationery.  But then along comes Stockholm to confirm your way as the real way.  What I might then do is reeve the lanyards, hold them in place untwisted, then drop a wee bit of a drop of CA into the slot where the lower deadeye sits.

 

Stockholm --- I had to laugh when you quoted that old saying cause first of all its absolutely true.  My laugh came in cause I tend to remember things with little sayings like this (e.g. to tie a reef knot I'm always saying to myself "over and under; under and over" even after probably tying this knot 1000 times).  So when I found this to be truly a good part of my problem, and I wanted to remember to do it, I made up almost the same saying.  I guess I think like an old salt.  But the sheer pole thing is intriguing cause I believe the AL plans show such thing.  I didn't know the purpose for this.  I thought it was just a solid first step up to the ratlines.  It doesn't have much effect though when you're still rigging just the first or second shroud.

 

Thanks all for the time and interest.  Here's a couple of pics to show what progress I've made.  One side (forgot which) still has a half twist, the other doesn't.  I'm not pleased with the tension on the shroud but maybe its OK.  And maybe I'll get better as I go along. 

[druxey]

The pictures show that the last lap of the laniard is running up to the wrong place. It should run up behind the upper deadeye and thread out through the gap in the shroud just above the deadeye before wrapping around both legs of the shroud and tying off.

[popeye2sea]

I believe I am druxey.  I'm following the diagram in Peterson's rigging book.  But then again, I could be doing it perfectly; just backward.  I will give that a closer look.  If you picture the two deadeyes as facing you (like little smiley faces) and you are looking at their outboard face, I have the triangle of holes opposite each other -- the upper deadeye's top hole being up and the channel deadeye's being at the bottom.  So there is the maximum distance between these holes.  And the other two holes then line up straight up and down to their counterpart hole on the other channel.

 

Looking at it this way, I've started with a stopper knot on the inside of the upper deadeye's left hand hole, run the lanyard through it and through the lower deadeye's left hand hole from inside to out.  Then I've strung to the outside of the upper deadeye's center hole, back down to the lower center hole (coming in from the inside and out on the outside), then back up to the upper right hand hole (outside to in) and finally back to the lower right coming from inside to outside.  The rest of the lanyard is then strung back up and threaded through the stropping of the top deadeye, wrapped around the shroud two or three times and tied off. 

 

Like I said, I'm following Peterson's diagram but maybe its the inside outside sequence or the left to right sequence that is causing the twist cause maybe that's not in opposition to the lay of the shroud.  Or, as I've just realized while writing this, perhaps it comes down to which side of the boat you're looking at (or rigging).  What I've described here was facing the starboard side, with forward being on my right hand and aft being to the left.  So if I start by stringing the left hand holes first and finish with the right hand holes, I'm stringing aft most first and working the lanyard forward.  But if I do the same thing on port side, still starting with the left hand holes and finishing to my right, then I'm really stringing the lanyards different from the starboard side -- on port side this would mean I'm starting with the forward most holes and ending with the aft most holes.  Since the shroud's lay is the same whether port or starboard, this could mean something.  Or maybe it means nothing?

 

BTW, we talk a lot of the 'lay' of the rope (or thread) and I know its either right hand or left hand lay.  But how do you tell one from the other?  If you look at the rope it has lay lines running from the upper right to the lower left.  Is this right hand or left hand lay?  If you twist this same rope counter clockwise, it will open the strands.  If you twist it clockwise it tightens it.  Does this mean its right or left hand lay.  Is the vast majority of rope and thread now right hand lay? 

 

One thing I noticed about your method, and it shows in your picture below, is that you seem to cross over the laniard from inside to outside.  When you reeve the laniard you should always be passing from inboard out on the upper deadeye and from outboard in on the lower.  The laniard should not be crossing from inboard to outboard between the deadeyes.  That could be introducing some twist also.

Edited November 14, 2015 by popeye2sea

[GuntherMT]

I agree with the prior two posts, the lanyards are being run incorrectly, and that is probably where your twist is coming from.  The lanyards should always run from outside face to outside face, never cross from front to back in the run from top to bottom, and when it comes up to the top on the last one, it should be behind the deadeye.

 

This drawing is wrong on where to start (should be on the left, not the right), but shows that the lanyards always go from outside to outside, and inside to inside.  If you flip this left to right it's correct:

 

 

Here is another drawing showing it correctly, but without the 'step by step' arrows.  You can see from the 'outboard view' (the one on the right), that the outside always goes to the outside corresponding hole in the deadeyes.  You can also see how the final run comes up from below on the inside, and goes between the deadeye and the cross-over of the shroud.

 

 

Be sure to click on the above drawing to see it full size for clarity.

Edited November 14, 2015 by GuntherMT

[amateur]

It seems you haverope with a lot of stretch ini it...

What also helpd is setti g the lower deadeye in the correct position, and fix it, and secondly, setting the upper deadeye on a shorther distance from the lower.

In terms of proportion: the distance between the two should be two or two-and-a-half times the diameter of the deadeye. Sometimee (as is shown inthe last figure above) even shorter. The shorter the distance, the less roomthere is for twisting.

 

Jan

[druxey]

In the lower diagram the shroud is right hand lay. If the twist in your own shrouds runs mirror image to this, you have a left hand lay. Also, look at the orientation of the lower deadeye, Captain Al. It is opposite to the upper one. Looks like your photos show the lower ones oriented incorrectly.

[GuntherMT]

In the lower diagram the shroud is right hand lay. If the twist in your own shrouds runs mirror image to this, you have a left hand lay. Also, look at the orientation of the lower deadeye, Captain Al. It is opposite to the upper one. Looks like your photos show the lower ones oriented incorrectly.

 

The first picture shows the deadeyes oriented correctly, but the other three have the lower deadeye 180 degrees off.  I think they are pictures of opposite sides of the ship, and on the one side they are fixed and the other they aren't?

[Captain Al]

You folks have been tremendously helpful.  Thank you so much.  The funny thing is that I've been aware of the inside to out, outside to in sequence but apparently just execute the process incorrectly.  (I never made my free throws either).  As for the final run and tie off, I had that totally wrong.  Its clear that the lanyard isn't put through first thing when it comes up and is then tied off, but rather it is wrapped around and tied (of sorts -- looks like just a simple granny knot or single hitch under itself) and then the end is secured through the stropping gap.

 

So its back to the bench for some more practice. 

[GuntherMT]

Ignore the first drawing I posted when looking to secure the lanyard at the end.  Look carefully at the 2nd illustration.  The lanyard comes up behind the deadeye from below, going FIRST through the gap between the deadeye and the shroud, then loops around and underneath itself, and then wraps around the shroud above.  There are no knots, the very end of the line is seized to the shroud with a small seize.

 

 

The red arrow is pointing to the seizing.  Notice that there are no knots at all.  On my model I accomplished keeping this line fairly neat by the simple expedient of soaking everything thoroughly in 50/50 white glue/water mixture and just taking my time.

 

Mine are not quite done correctly either, as I did not leave enough gap between the deadeye and shroud to make the proper feed through from below, so mine just wrap around and under instead of going through the gap like they should.  It would be neater and more secure with the gap though.

 

[Captain Al]

Thanks again Gunther (or is it Brian?).  Just in time to stop me from doing it wrong again.  I wasn't actually tying knots, I was looping 'underneath itself' as you say to do.  I just see that as a sort of half knot.  Anyway, your's look great even with the slight mistake.  I've been using a sewing needle to get the lanyard through.  Otherwise, no way.  I put a needle through even before I string the shroud up so to create the hole for when I do it with thread on the needle.  Easier to push the needle through on the bench than hanging from the mast.

[GuntherMT]

Thanks again Gunther (or is it Brian?).  Just in time to stop me from doing it wrong again.  I wasn't actually tying knots, I was looping 'underneath itself' as you say to do.  I just see that as a sort of half knot.  Anyway, your's look great even with the slight mistake.  I've been using a sewing needle to get the lanyard through.  Otherwise, no way.  I put a needle through even before I string the shroud up so to create the hole for when I do it with thread on the needle.  Easier to push the needle through on the bench than hanging from the mast.

 

Brian, but Gunther is fine too, it's an old nick-name.

Your idea to thread the needle through is a good one.  In my case I wasn't looking far enough ahead when I put the shrouds on the deadeyes, and thought I was being smart my making the shrouds so tight around the deadeyes.  Later on I realized how the lanyards were supposed to run through the gaps, and was sort of kicking myself.  I chose not to redo them because it would have required completely remaking the shrouds.  I did everything on a jig, which you can see if you select my AVS build log link in my signature - I have an index in the first post which you can use to jump to the entry "Main mast standing rigging begins" which is where the jig is shown (or, just click there, since apparently copy/pasting the line in the log also copied the link).

[Captain Al]

I will take a look at it.  It seems we all eventually come to the conclusion that building a ship model is a lot like playing chess.  You gotta be looking several steps ahead.  Unfortunately I was never good at chess.  My skill at modeling is more on a level of checkers.

[Tadeusz43]

Hi

I am using dilute nitrocellulose transparen lacquer which stiffens lnayards and is invisible.
With the same lacquer I protect all knots in rigging.

 

Tadeusz

[Captain Al]

Tad, is that the same stuff as some call "dope"?  You thin it with lacquer thinner I would think.  What proportion?