REVENGE by John Maguire - Amati/Victory Models - build in the Cougar Mountain Shipyard

[John Maguire]

Continuing with the previous post, this line out scheme began with the mid strake positioned at plank 14, midway between the wale and keel, but rather than routing it forward at frame midpoints it was run strictly by eye, offered into what looked fair taking into account the wale and the keel. Strakes to define all four bands were run this time. 

 

Strakes in each band are always wider than half plank at the stem. I see no issues, so far, at the stern.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would appreciate as many opinions as possible.

 

Respectfully,

John

[GuntherMT]

I think edge-bent (or spiled) planks would look better, but as you've already discovered, walnut is a very splintery wood so you might run into trouble using it like that.

 

On the other hand, I have no idea which method is 'correct' for this ship, and whether that was part of the design of the model.

[mtaylor]

John,

 

Continue the tic marks forward and aft.  You've established that you need 28 planks.   Use Chucks fan-tool to get the widths of the planks as you move forward and aft.  I'd use the second set with the battens for this.  I think in the long run you'll be happier.  

 

I would lay out and install the wales and probably the planks above them first to establish where you need to plank between the wales and the keel and then line out the hull.   The wales give the ship it's distinctive look.

[slow2cool]

John

First let me say thanks for taking the time to make such a detailed post, the wording and the pics are spot on.

I can see just what you are talking about, and you have made it so clear of how the 2 options are going to lay.

I am not a expert in planking different types of hauls, with that said I would have to go with Mark.

The second option does look like it will work out better.

The first looks like it is almost bent the wrong way.

The only other thing I can think of why it may be going in that direction is it looks like you didn't put in of take account for the garboard strake.

I am not even sure if your haul should have one.

Maybe Mark can shed some light on this, and how that would effect to laying out of the planks.

All I can say is I know I have not done it right, and to do it right takes a lot of planning. Once to do it right, I think it will be a breeze after that.

Like Chuck said you should have it all marked out so you can see it even before you cut the first piece of wood.

The next time I do a haul like you have I think I will either mark it all out and then maybe even use card stock for test planks.

Joe

[DocBlake]

John:  I think the second lining off looks like it will work best.  If your strakes are at least a half-plank wide at the stem and you don't have to twist the wood into a corkscrew to get it to lay right  I think you're golden!

[John Maguire]

Thank you Brian, Mark, Doc & Joe.

 

I am more verbose than most Joe because I am both slower and since I lack experience I am trying to show all the nitty gritty in hopes that one of you will catch me before I get way beyond my ability to reasonably recover.

 

The pictures in the manual show walnut but the supplied wood is far from that quality. I do not know what it is other than soft.

 

Edge bending to achieve a result similar to spiles took me a week of reading and finally Chuck's video to understand. Reading and doing are two different things .  .  .  .

 

The uppermost strake seen forward in the following photos is the wale plank.  I extended it one more piece aft, leaving one section to go. Learning from your build Mark, when I joined the piece to the wale plank I laid another alongside temporarily to assure the transition would be straight and unnoticed. Slight bending downward will take place beyond.

 

I also like the layout seen in the second group of pictures from the previous post. It seemed to embody the lessons so many have written, but I wanted to present it for opinions in case I was blind siding myself.

 

Today, for future reference, I carefully traced both sides of all four banding planks onto the hull, then tic'd off the uppermost band from my arbitrary 0 frame to the stem. I will end up with approximately 3/4 plank width there.

 

 

Here is another view further forward.

 

 

Before extending the wale strake I needed to finish planking the transom because the finish planking should overlay the transom edge.

 

 

I also had seam blackening for unknown reasons that I have seen others remark about. I am experimenting with an idea that I hope will prevent it. Chuck Passaro, in his CHEERFUL build makes a point of mentioning not using edge glue. He has as you know pencil blackened the edges to simulate tar. If he can get along without edge glue I plan to try it also. My two forward hull strakes and the entire transom are carefully fit with beveled edges and forced tight fits and so far they are clean. Fingers crossed.

 

Respectfully,

John

Edited July 26, 2016 by John Maguire

[DocBlake]

The time taken in prep work will pay big dividends, John.  You're on your way to a beautiful hull!

[John Maguire]

Thanks Doc. Thank you for the LIKES dear friends .  .  .  .

 

This post will set a record for the least work accomplished and reported proudly. 

 

I have at least two weeks of studying your collective posts and personal experimentation trying to successfully edge bend the type of wood supplied with this kit. Chuck's video set me on the right path but the dry edge bending he uses destroys my wood specie - whatever it is. I have tried wet, dry, alcohol, water, hot, cold, boiling, microwave, wrap around coins, free shape, clamps, etc, etc .  .  .  .

 

Over the last two days I have learned that  if I wet my wood in warm water - alcohol is no good because it evaporates to fast -  it can be coerced to the extent necessary. The wood I have shatters if I edge bend it dry. In order to be successful my specific kind of wood has to be wet. I need to begin with the moveable part of my jig on top of the strake to keep it from wrinkling as I initially push it into the concave side. Working on a tile is best because it is slippery and I can slide the strake. Whatever wrinkling that might want to occur is held in check because it is beneath the moveable part of my jig and as the wood is soft, wet and mushy the wrinkling gets absorbed, if that would be a good description. As I get it mostly into the concave piece I can then move the moveable part into position behind the strake and push it the rest of the way for the tight fit you see in the picture. As I am doing that final push I need to continuously tamp the top of the strake with the square brass piece seen in the photo to keep it from wrinkling. Having the wood wet gives me the ability to do that without breaking or wrinkling the wood.

 

Once I have the strake fully shaped, I use Chuck's heat method for several minutes. Five to ten. When the strake is left in the jig overnight it is dimensionally stable in the morning with zero spring back.

 

 

The next picture is the first section of the wale plank on the stbd side. As stated yesterday, I plan to plank in shorter, less than full hull lengths to allow glueing control that is more positive than my previous attempt. The repeatable plank butt pattern might also add a little visual interest. This wale plank on each side and the one above it are the most difficult on the ship to shape. I carefully used dividers to ensure this strake is in the same relative hull position as the other side. The bands and virtual frame positions are seen but I have not begun to tic this side because that will be relative to this strake.

 

 

So, one small step but a major problem - for me - finally solved with a solution that is readily repeatable.

 

And then the stern. The demarcation between the diagonals and the horizontal strakes is not as perfect as I'd wish but it is covered  when the rear wrap around of the wale goes on.

 

 

Another day in the Cougar Mtn Shipyard .  .  .

 

Respectfully submitted,

John Maguire

Seattle

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2016 by John Maguire

[mrshanks]

Hi John.  I am extremely impressed with your attention to detail, quest for precision, and tenacity to figure it all out!!  I am also very appreciative of you sharing your trial methods that will end up saving me time when I confront similar challenges.  Keep up the great work and thanks!!

[slow2cool]

John

I have been there done that. I have spent weeks trying this, doing that. Then my admiral will say I don't knnow why you build those things.

Any other time she is very helpful.

For a long time I thought is was just me that had the results that you have gone through. I thought I was doing something wrong.

Thanks for posting, and all the info

Joe

[DocBlake]

I just watched Chuck's two planking videos again.  Did he make a third showing how he laid out the planking plan on the hull before starting?

[mtaylor]

John,

 

Looking good and well worth the effort.  One question, since the wood is splitting, is the grain straight?  Many times the kit wood is cut at an angle to the grain.  I think we've all had our moments with wood splitting.. and then the air turns blue.  

 

Doc,

There's no other video that I know of.  As for lining off the hull, use his tutorial in the article database.  He also includes a planking fan for the process in a separate PDF.

[John Maguire]

Wow, thank you for the LIKES and increasing number of viewers.

 

Mike, an appreciation from you is meaningful - thank you.

 

Joe, it is frustrating trying one thing after another and failing, isn't it ? <smile> Winning is easy - it's hard to  be a good looser.

 

Doc, Mark got it for you. I must have been misleading on the third video. I used the line out method and fan from the other section of the forum. I think it is clearly presented. I still have to expand my line out to include all areas of the hull.

 

Doc, I hadn't thought about a diagonal grain. That is however, the culprit! All my failures are diagonal. The clues, though obvious, didn't rise to my level of consciousness until you asked. You've got it .  .  .

 

Apropos of that, I did an additional bow area strake today. It is a long process so even one or two pieces is time consuming. First though, I experimented with the edge beveling process  by setting the table on my Byrnes saw at 75 degrees and with the wheel stationary, I moved the plank back and forth trying to achieve a uniform edge.

 

 

For me, edge bending remains a challenge. I wanted to bend over a slightly longer length than previously so I tried boiling the piece for about ten minutes then bringing the pan to my bench and rewetting a couple of times. Is ten minutes long enough? The wood mass is minimal .  .  .

 

I bent only one bow piece today. It matches the other side that was installed a couple of days ago.  Today, for some reason, bending was more difficult than previous pieces. Once bent,I used Chuck's heat gun for about ten minutes and because of the size of the bend I did it a second time. About an hour later I removed the piece and it had zero spring back. I've got to emphasize again, getting it bent was a challenge .  .  .  . I sure wish someone could point me in a better direction. I don't have enough wood to spile. Am I negligent for not getting more? Chris managed readily, but he is smarter than me.

 

 

 

By the way, to mitigate why I am having more issues than Chris, it is to a large extent due to my desire to have the strakes parallel the wales and keel rather than have an upsweep at the bow. Maybe that makes me a bad person .  .  .  . smile.

 

I continued the bow planking rearward in sections. I have separated the hull length into six sections so that I can have a staggered butt scenario resembling what Chuck did with CHEERFUL.

 

 

 

 

Not much to show for two days of five or six hours each is it? The brown shadow shows the extent of my abandoned initial attempt and then sanded off. One of the things that displeased me the most was black seams and seams that were not quite tight. This time around I am spending significant time to prep where each plank is about to go on the hull, no edge glue and a uniform edge bevel on each one.

 

I take heart with out mutual hero, Remco: "Treat each part as if it is a model on its own, you will finish more models in a day than others do in a lifetime."

 

Respectfully presented,

John Maguire

Seattle

 

 

 

[WackoWolf]

Remco does know what he is saying with that.

[slow2cool]

John

You are doing some really great work. Looks like all your effort is paying off.

At the rate you are going your planking job is 1st rate.

Joe

[John Maguire]

Thank you for the many likes and I'm pleased to see some new names looking in. Thank you.

 

My planking is slow. There are generally three and in some instances four segments fore & aft in each strake. Each one is compression edge clamped because I am not edge glueing. I just finished the fourth upper level strake on each side. The multiple planks per "run" restricts how many sections can be attached each day.

 

After making a pattern, both garboard planks were laid parallel and simultaneously shaped on the Byrnes sander. Each was well and evenly beveled in a calibrated manner by using the Byrnes sander table at a 75 degree angle. They were then marked with a small pencil tic that was used as a mark against the keel to assure symmetry on both sides of the keel.

 

 

The stbd garboard was then attached today and will remain clamped for a full day to allow the glue to cure. Lots of glue is visible because I like the buff white color scheme and am comfortable that I'll be able to satisfactorily prep the area prior to paint. Putty & paint makes the devil a saint .  .  .  . Easy glue application on the other strakes but heavy on the garboard.

 

 

I suspect that a month of easy days is in store for this lower hull planking.

 

Respectfully submitted,

John Maguire

Seattle

[DenPink]

Hi John

It is always good practice to clean the glue up when wet, you will find it harder to clean it up when dry.

Your next plank may not butt up to it when it comes to fit it.

 

Denis.

[John Maguire]

Thank you to the many folks whom have looked in and left LIKES. Denis, welcome back - I presume your household move is under control.

 

Many of you have previously wondered out loud why I am having so much trouble with planking near the bow. When planks are run flat I can't come close to what either the manual or other builders have found.  Believe me, I think about it often.

 

Balsa blocks were added in that area and shaped to give the first planks an easy surface to make the bends. I think that when I shaped them they were made too cheeky and introduced a shape different from what the frames themselves would have produced.

 

Lots of pictures this time. I became frustrated with the original edge bending scheme that I wrote about earlier. I spent time looking at what others have done and to a greater extent, 1:1 scale. As was always lurking in the background, steam has been the time honored method. It is uncertain why I didn't accept that to begin with.

 

To that end I built a steam box of cedar. The inlet is at the bottom of one end and the outlet near the top of the opposite end.

 

 

I made the following arrangement to collect steam from a pan of boiling water. The square lid sat on top of a stainless steel pan. That did not work out. There was simply not enough steam to see a visible amount exiting the box.

 

 

Google and Amazon are always my friend, so I came up with the device seen below. My quality expectations were minimal so it was a pleasant surprise to be favorably impressed when it arrived.

 

 

Steam generation is so voluminous that only the slightest depression of the trigger is necessary. I have done several pieces now by exposing them to something over ten minutes of steam. Look closely at the bottom of the photo to see steam exiting from the box.

 

 

Though the box exterior becomes hot, the strake I am treating has been touchable with my unprotected fingers when I remove it. I prepare the bending form in advance along with a brass clamp to assure a snug fit at the left end of the form. After steaming the plank can easily be edge bent around the form with minimal desire to wrinkle. Once it is in position I use several brass clamps, lightly applied, to ensure it doesn't try to wrinkle when the steam effects wear off. All of this is clamped to a thick ceramic tile. The smooth surface enables friction free bending. Once in position, I use my heat gun for five or more minutes as per Chuck's advice to permanently set the shape. To that end I really like the tile because it maintains the heat for a long time. I also vigorously heat the bottom side of the tile. That combination subjects the wood to heat for perhaps a half hour until it is back close to room temperature. When I release the clamps there is zero spring back. Chuck's video sample edge bending was successfully done dry. He emphasizes no water. That does not work for the wood supplied in this kit. In reading accounts of others I have concluded there are as many bending characteristics as there are types of wood. I have destroyed enough wood on this build to believe mine can't be bent dry - by me ..  ..  ..  ..  

 

 

Below can be seen attaching a strake segment. Using alternating butt locations I have split each plank into three pieces. I only have enough clamps to attach one and sometimes two sections at a time. If I do a pair, I'll do one on each side.

 

 

Looking carefully, it can be seen I am still in the area where I removed my initial attempted planking.

 

 

Here are a couple of overall views.

 

 

 

I have the garboard and adjacent strakes under way as well.

 

 

Slow going. I am trying to treat each section of plank as though it is the entire project. At this time, 7 of the 28 strakes on each side are in place.

 

Respectfully submitted,

 

John Maguire

Seattle

Edited August 17, 2016 by John Maguire

[DocBlake]

Very innovative, John.  I admire your ingenuity.  The planking looks great!

[slow2cool]

John

You are not alone. I have the same thinking as you. 

When things don't work out I keep thinking it me, and I must be doing something wrong. Like not enough heat, to much heat, didn't let it soak long enough, etc, etc.

I like you have come to the point that it must be the wood, and different wood acts different.

What you have come up with is not only out of the box, but very smart. I would have never thought of using tile to help with the bending.

My hat is off to you for keeping with it, and doing what you have done.

Joe

[John Maguire]

Thanks Doc, Joe and the many LIKES .  .  .  .

 

Just a quick update to show I haven't fallen asleep on this, doing a couple to three hours a day. With the number of clamps I have and the need to let the PVA set awhile makes for a slow rate of advance. I prefer the slower setting glue to allow working time with the planks.

 

Of particular note is how well my steam box is working out. Edge bending to the required radius is now easy, quick and produces wrinkle free bends with no effort and near zero spring back.

 

 

I have only done a little preliminary sanding in the bow where the bending is most acute. The seams are tight and only a small number of black lines. Perhaps finish sanding will help that.

 

 

The hull sides beyond the bow are progressing better than the initial attempt that I tore off because of loose seams.

 

 

At this point on both sides I have ten of the planned 28 strakes.

 

Respectfully,

John

 

 

[slow2cool]

Great Job John

I have learned a lot from you

Thanks for posting

Joe

[DocBlake]

Your planking is spot on, John.  Great job!

[John Maguire]

Thank you Joe & Doc and the LIKEs .  .  .

 

It is slow going but the edges are to my satisfaction and bending for the bow curvatures is no longer an issue. My initial edge bending was a serious contest to try to prevent or minimize wrinkling. The steam box makes it easy and a complete no brainer .  .  .

 

Respectfully,

John

[Elijah]

That is some very nice hull planking! Great job!

[John Maguire]

Thank you Elijah. Thank you for the LIKES, folks.

 

A pause of a couple of weeks for Raspberry Pi projects and a VPN setup between Seattle and Maine. Those events are under control and back to the shipyard. 

 

At my rate of advance, it continues slow and deliberate. The steam box is working well for my edge bending.

 

 

 

 

I have redone the plank mapping fore 'n aft. Fifteen additional strakes to go. The bow area looks weird. I hope it'll become clear to me a I get closer. Dropped planks don't look apparent, but my eye is inexperienced. Aft, I believe a stealer is in store. The turn by the rudder post might be a logical place.

 

Respectfully submitted,

John

[DocBlake]

Where are you, John?  I'm missing your updates!

[John Maguire]

Over the past few months I drifted into other areas of interest. A couple of Raspberry Pi projects and some ham radio interests but all the while a plank here and a plank there - insufficient for a MSW post. During the process I have planked port & starboard at the same rate because I thought it would help me maintain symmetry at the stem and stern.

 

I am within about eight strakes of completion. Additionally, I see the possibility of a third and double length joggle and probably a couple of stealers. Today I did the four joggles. I'll run their four matching strakes tomorrow, probably a standard strake on each side of them and then decide on the advisability of an additional joggle.

 

So far I have done only a rough sanding. The plank seams are satisfactory - tight and no gaps.

 

 

 

Respectfully,

John

 

Edited December 16, 2016 by John Maguire

[Kurt Johnson]

Glad to see things are moving again. It seems all the Revenge builds stopped around the same time. I'm hoping to begin mine after the holidays.

 

Kurt

[mrshanks]

Looks like you have the hang of it John.  Excellent planking!!!  Glad to see you back.