Triton cross section by Anguirel -1:48

[Anguirel]

Hi all,

 

I have been following many off the logs for years now. I have built two ships and I'm half way through the Santissima Trinidad (kits) but I was always amazed with the models on the scratch build section... i finally mustered the courage to try one myself. The Triton cross section seemed the perfect candidate, not too big, not too small. And the Group Project give the necessary support to new people like me.I ordered the wood from the wood list in the first post and I started as soon as it arrived. I have the three peices from the first drawing ready and now request access to the rest of the plans.

 

 

 

 

A side note about the woods I'm using. Like I said I order the wood list from the topic's first post. I contacted two online stores and gave them the wood list. One of the stores said they didn't had some of the wood types I was requesting so I ordered the all lot in boxwood. This was the store that replied first. One day after paying I got the answer from the second store. They had all the wood types I wanted for a bit more them the first. Since I wanted to test different wood as well I proceeded with the second order. The problem was when the wood arrived. From the first store (just boxwood) the wood arrived like this:

All strips of wood in individual labeled bags. The wood from the second store arrived like this:

No labels with sizes or wood type which made it very difficult since I don't recognise the woods.

One other difference was the finishing the wood from the second store they weren't sanded

 

The biggest problem is that some the wood from the second store is not squared

The keel (in the image) was one of the strips that was not squared.

 

My question is: is this normal? Or this is something I should complain? Specially the not square thing, which just adds another level of complication...

 

Thanks in advance,

Anguirel

Edited March 20, 2018 by Anguirel

[tkay11]

Great to see another Triton builder!

 

I think the way the wood is sold depends on the supplier. If it's a timber merchant they often ask whether you want the wood planed or not. It looks as though your supplier expects you to plane or re-saw your own wood. Some merchants specialise in small cuts for modellers and generally they will let you have an exact specification.

 

I don't know what country you're from, but if it's the USA then there are loads of specialist hobby timber suppliers that others on this forum will tell you about.

 

Tony

[mtaylor]

If the second supplier is who I think it is, he believes we modelers wish to "finish" the wood to our own specs (sanding, final dimensions) using our own tools.  He does do good work on the finishing (dimensions and sanding) if requested when the order is placed.   

 

Anyway, welcome to MSW and the Triton.  It's a great project.

[Anguirel]

Hi,

 

Thanks tkay11 and mtaylor.

 

I'm living in the US, I did't want to name names in case it was something due to ignorance on my part, which seems to be the case. Next time I will ask for the wood to be cut at exact dimensions and sanded. 

 

Thanks

[Pete38]

Welcome to the build, Nice start, looking forward to more

[ChadB]

I had the same exact issues nearly 8 years ago with whom I suspect is the second seller and ended up reordering from the forefather of your first seller when I built my cross section. I preferred paying the premium for the first seller from thereon out. It's ridiculous to assume that someone ordering milled lumber wouldn't mind something as rudimentary as squared pieces, but that's my opinion. Looks like a good start!

[Anguirel]

Thanks for all the welcomes and likes.

ChadB I don't mind the lack of sanding although the not squared this is too much for me. If I had the proper tools to do that I wouldn't need to order milled lumbe. But if this is done by conviction and not by incompetence and if it's a more or less well know fact in the community I'm ok with it. Next time I will be more specific on how I want my order or go to a different place.

[Mike Y]

Anguriel, I had the same problem with the supplier you do not want to name (why? People should know...)

And I had 12kg of it!

Ended up buying all wood from another supplier, and stashing the rough wood until I got the thickness planer

[Mike Y]

Dirk, with your quality requirements - most of that wood will not pass your picky QC even after planing and sanding

[Anguirel]

Hi,

 

Today I finally had a few moments to try the frames. I've been doing some research on the frame joints... and I found an answer in Peter Goodwin's book. All joints were made with chocks except the joint between the 3rd and 4th futtocks and the respective top timbers that was made with a plain scarph.

 

Here's how mine are coming along (sorry about the quality of the picture it was taken with the kids sleeping and with the iPad)

 

There is only one thing I could not find: a formula for the dimensions of the chocks. I found the dimensions for some chocks for the Victory and extrapolated a formula. Chock width: 3 times the thickness of the frame and chock height: 3/4 of the frame height. Is this a good approximation? Does anyone found and actual formula?

 

One other question: are the frame joints (and the connection of the double frames) supposed to be caulked?

 

Hope that tomorrow I will be able to finnish preparing frame 0

[Anguirel]

Finished what I could with is first try.

 

 

On this pair the left side scarph is broken. I first try to do it with a carving knife but when doing the flat part of the scarph the corner of the edge broke. The others were done with the mill. I guess I have to make a jig because even with the mill the angle of some of the flat parts scarph are wrong so the top timber doesn't align with the plans.

 

 

For the second pair the floor futtock is wrong. For some reason the right side of the floor is lower them the left one.

 

I'm still using this pair to train the chocks.

 

I've faired the frames to the inside of the line which I was already advised against...

 

So after trying the chocks is back to doing a new pair.

 

Thanks.

[tkay11]

I really enjoy build logs like this where every step, including problems, is shown.

 

Thanks very much.

 

Tony

[AnobiumPunctatum]

Anguriel,

 

looks really good. I think it is very helpful to let a little bit more timber on both sides of the frame. So you can sand the whole section in one step and egalize small differences without makeing the frames to small durig this step.

[Anguirel]

Hi,

 

Thanks for the comments and likes. Leaving a bit of wood on the sides seems logic in order to have an uniform surface after assembly. My question in this case is if I'm using treenails or copper wire to simulate nails fastening for the futtock and chocks, since these will be on the inside should I do them after assembly and fairing?

 

Thanks

[AnobiumPunctatum]

I normaly use treenails. I put them in before installing the frames. I am not sure if brass or copper wire will work in the same way. But it's easy to test. Cut one futtock a little bit oversized. Put it some wire and treenails and sand them to the correct size. So you will see if your idea´and material work as exspected.

[amateur]

I'm following with interest.

Still contemplating my possibilities is such a model

(Although greatly hindered by lack of space, and lack of powertools, not to mention time.....)

 

Jan

[ChadB]

Anguriel,

 

looks really good. I think it is very helpful to let a little bit more timber on both sides of the frame. So you can sand the whole section in one step and egalize small differences without makeing the frames to small durig this step.

This is very good advice. You don't need to leave a lot, but I try to leave enough that when I lay the frame on the plan it completely covers the outline of the frame (if that makes sense). Fairing is the worst, but it's better than having to redo a bunch of frames.You can treenail now since you won't be leaving so much extra meat that they will be off kilter at the end.  -Chad

[Anguirel]

Hi,

 

After a brief pause to make a Christmas present I'm back on the Triton. I has planing on doing the frames with chocks but I can't find dimensions anywhere. I've looked in Goodwin and The Fully Framed Model volume one and although in the first there is a detailed description of the futtock there is nothing on the chocks. On the TFFM there is a detail description on how to make the chocks but they are in the planes so there is no information on there dimensions. I looked in all logs of the cross section here at the Forum (as well as the full build) and no one used chocks in there respective builds. Iwas going through the full build planes and I did find one sheet titled "Chocks @48:1" is this where the dimensions of the chocks are? Are they all the same size independent of the size of the frame? And are the planes only showing half the chocks?

 

Thanks

[Anguirel]

Hi

 

Found some information on the TFFM and decided to take the plunge. Used Kevin Kenny's idea and build a gig with the different sizes of the chocks and the futtock

 

 

The floor futtocks are glued to the boxwood and ready to cut...

 

 

Time is limited let's see if I can finish them today.

 

Thanks

[Anguirel]

Hi,

 

Another day of ups and downs. I cut the flat futtocks and used the scroll saw to cut the guides for the keel and keelson slots

 

Then used a flat carving knife to cut the excess and prepare the pieces for the mill so I have nice squared, flat surfaces

 

 

And after the mill

 

 

Next phase was the chocks, I cut the edges for the first two of the "C" frame

 

 

But was can be seen the one on the left suffered a fatal accident. I was cutting the angled face with a x-acto blade and because I was cutting parallel to the wood grain it just cut the egde off. Basic mistake...

 

 

I still used the other edge to make the other chock

 

 

It came out better then I was expecting for the first one

 

 

Now to redo the flat futtock...

Edited December 30, 2016 by Anguirel

[Anguirel]

Hi,

 

Today was a better day. My first half frame with chocks is ready...

 

 

Tomorrow for the other half.

 

Thanks for all the likes.

[Gabek]

Hello there Anguirel,

I decided to put in chocks on frames 5 and C, which would be visible in the final model:

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/5761-hms-triton-cross-section-by-gabe-k-196/?p=218064

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/5761-hms-triton-cross-section-by-gabe-k-196/?p=221134

I also had the problem of not finding a formula and ended up just picking between two reference sources I had and scaling down.

 

Good luck in your build! Looking forward to reading more.

Clear skies,

Gabe

[Anguirel]

Hi,

 

GabeK, thanks. I did see your log during my research but like.you said it's difficult to find the formula for the chocks dimensions. I did find one on the TFFM book but I'm missing one of the variables. I ended up simplifying the formula.

 

I cut all the frames peices, still can't control the scroll saw properly so some are closer to the line then others.

 

 

In the mean time finished the "C" double frame. The second pair has 2 chocks and 2 scarphs. With the mill the scarphs where much easier to make. Still there is a lot of fine sanding with the micro files...

 

 

Now to glue everything, sand and then treenails...

[Anguirel]

Hi,

 

One question about frame construction. The Triton's keel was layed down in 1771 and according to Peter Goodwin between 1750-1811 the 1st futtocks ended in a scarph against the keel and a cross chock as used to fasten the two and the assembly to the keel. On the plans the two 1st futtocks are actually very similar to two half floors. In this case (again according to Peter Goodwin) they would be fastened to each other and to the keel by coaks, this was the method of construction between 1811-1850. So the question is: where the plans simplified so "first times" like me could actually build the cross section and I'm over complicating or is there and alternate method of construction? I'm sure Peter Goodwin's word is not the only one and it's not final.

 

Thanks

[tkay11]

There are quite a few references in the build logs that were rescued from the crash to the fact that the cross-section was designed to give beginners a feel for planking and framing. Amongst these there are a number of differences from the full build in order to make it all simpler. There are some specific statements about the changes, but I've forgotten what they are. I am sure you'll be getting specific information from others pretty shortly!

 

As for me, I've been making my cross-section even simpler by following the existing plans in the most basic way, not making the limber strakes accurately, leaving out treenails, not rounding off the top of the hatch etc., but I really admire people such as yourself who try to make this project as interesting as possible, and as perfect as possible -- I learn a lot from such builds.

 

Tony

[Anguirel]

Thank for the kind words Tony. It just makes me nervous knowing that there is a "righter" way to do it. Don't get me wrong I'm very appreciative of the free work that was put in making the planes and I understand the need for simplicity in this kind of projects but I feel wrong if I don't go the extra mile. So with that in mind here's my attempt at the cross chock

 

 

 

Only 8 to go...

Edited January 6, 2017 by Anguirel

[tkay11]

and very nice it is too! That must have been very satisfying to make.

 

Tony

[AnobiumPunctatum]

Aguriel,

 

if you build the frames original,why don't you use the original frames design? You can use the pattern of the Group Build for this, if you let a little bit timber outside of the lines. It would be very interesting to see the 3 thick frames at station 0.

 

[Anguirel]

Hi,

 

Anobium what a wonderful idea... when you say 3 thick frames at station 0 are you referring to the changes in thickness as we go up? The first biggest problem about this idea is that I still can't understand everything in those kind of plans. But I will try.

 

As for the frame I was building I used black paper to simulate the pitch and tar that was used. This introduced a extra high to the floors, futtocks and top timbers that I was not successful at compensating and one side of one of the halfs is bigger then the other. I also had to compensate the size of the chock and scarphs. Because of this (and Anobium's idea) this frame is now garbage.

I still used this frame to do some testing and to see the final result of using the black paper

 

One half...

 

The other half...

 

And the inside...

 

Now for the treenails. I will try boxwood (same wood as frames) for the treenails and copper wires for the nails. Let's see how it looks

Edited January 7, 2017 by Anguirel

[AnobiumPunctatum]

Your frame is looking really good. The joints a very clean. Have you used a black pecil for showing them? I would only use a light brown pencil.

 

If you don't understand the drawing, please ask. I am happy if I can help you. I hope the following information help you to understand the drawing a little bit better.

 

The drawing is a part of the originial Disposition of Frames Drawing for HMS Triton. It shows the arrangement of the frames. The small numbers and letters at the bottom indentify the station lines. The midship frame is at station 0. It is a single frame with a thickness which is not common for ships of this period. Therefore the shipbuildes have given the dimensions of the different timbers. The next frame is a double frame. From the second futtock to the top you see a double line, because there is air between the frames. To connect the frames spacers (small timber blocks) are necessary. Under the gun ports are two single frames which have the regular dimensions. Allan Yedlinskys book is a fantastic reference for finding the correct dimensions. The next frame is a double frame, also with air ventilation.

 

If you need further information, please let me know.

Edited January 7, 2017 by AnobiumPunctatum