USS Saginaw 1859 by catopower - FINISHED - 1/8" scale - paddlewheel gunboat - first ship built at Mare Island

[tarbrush]

great job on the funnel and fan decorations for the wheelhouses. Sorry you are having trouble now with the etching now. Have you tried starting over with all new chemicals?

[popeye the sailor]

dispite the failure part.........you've given me some insight.  I have been using my decal maker to produce decorations and designs for my ships........the biggest problem is the transparency issue.   I have seen what Dafi has been doing with his Victory builds......he has produced some photo etch as well.........I wondered how he might have done this.   this might be it!

 

thanks for showing this.......I'm sure the admiral will jump for joy as well,  when I push to get one of these       I won't mention your name,  I promise!   besides........failure is part of getting better at  it,   isn't it? 

[catopower]

Thanks Tarbrush,

 

Well, I've been trying different methods and now that's what's making me crazy. So, I'm going back to the original method that had worked before and trying again. Unfortunately, I ran out of photoresist material, so I just had to order some more. I'd made some new artwork and after the I transfer that to the metal, the only chemicals I need is the etchant itself. The stuff I have on hand is pretty new, but I just ordered some more since I needed to order the photo resist anyway. 

 

That gives me a week or so to think about something else before I start back in on the photo etching.

 

Hi Popeye,

 

Glad you found my experiences useful. I did use this successfully to make some decorative scroll work for my yacht America model, and some things did turn out okay. I just have to put together what I've learned and see if I can do better. As I mentioned to Tarbrush above, I've got about a week or so to put it out of my mind before I try again. But, I'm ready to give it a go.

 

If failure is part of learning, then I must be learning an AWFUL lot!

 

Clare

[catopower]

Pivot Gun Tracks

 

Back to catching up on the build log...

 

On the pivot gun tracks, I began by using Adobe Illustrator to create the artwork. The tracks for the pivot guns are based on the National Archives plans. The two are identical and simply consist of three overlapping arcs.

 

 

 

 

As I mentioned in the previous post, the trick in creating the artwork is to create the areas to be etched away. So, the black areas in the artwork will etch away, leaving the white areas as the brass parts. You don’t want to create unnecessary black areas as you end up wasting etchant on areas that don’t actually need to be etched. So, the bulk of the artwork is white.

 

 

 

 

The fine white lines are small brass bridges that will keep the etched part from falling off the sheet during the etching process. I included too many of these in my early work and realized it just made for more clean-up. So, my later artwork has only as many as seemed necessary and reasonable.

 

Once I had completed the art, I printed it out on regular paper and test fit it on deck. This was just an extra step to make sure I didn’t miss anything.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was getting uneven thickness in the widths of the track and It took me a few attempts at etching to get the tracks to come out well. I started to realize at some point that some of the unevenness I was getting in the etching came from the exposure process, where some portions of the art were being struck at an angle by the light I was using. So, some areas were receiving stronger exposure than others. 

 

I adjusted this by turning the artwork at regular intervals during the exposure process and that helped. I’ve since purchased a cheap little display turntable that is powered by a solar cell. I haven’t tried it yet, but the idea is that I’ll put the metal and artwork on the turntable, switch on the exposure lamp and that will power the turntable to rotate slowly, but enough to keep the light expose the artwork more evenly.

 

Anyway, the etching process itself went well enough after that and the photo below shows the aft pivot track in place. Remember, this is back when the brass etching process was working okay for me...

 

 

Clare

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[WackoWolf]

Nice. I enjoyed the work you have done and hope to see more of your fine work.

[popeye the sailor]

that looks awesome clair...........that settles it.......I gotta get one!  

[mtaylor]

That is some seriously nice etching work.  I guess one of these days I'll probably have to look into this process.

[tarbrush]

the tracks came out awesome looking Claire!

[shark bait]

Well Clare, that looks great! Your persistence certainly paid off in a handsome way.

[Jim Lad]

Just catching up after holidays, Clare - she's looking first class.

 

John

[catopower]

Thank you everyone for your great support. It's much appreciated and is helping to keep me on task.

 

 

So, about a week ago I restarted the process to do some etching of some rings for the paddle wheel. I'd looked at various ways to make them, but at 1/8" scale, etching brass seemed to be the best option IF I could get it to work. I had made rings for one side of one wheel many months ago and recently looked at them again and they actually look okay. Anyway, I realized that about 60% of the work will be hidden by the wheel houses, and for that matter, you can only see about 1/2 of one wheel at a time, so I've come to realize that if they're not perfect, it probably won't be at all noticeable.

 

Got the gumption up to get started and realized I didn't have enough photoresist material, so I went ahead and reordered that and some new etchant. I've been kind of winging it on keeping track of how much I've used, so I'm going to get very methodical about recording dates and uses from now on. The stuff is still a few days away via FedEx Ground, but I should have it by Friday.

 

So, while I'm posting, I should mention that one of the problems I've been having with etching is trying to get a little more streamlined and greener. The chemicals, primarily the etchant, has to be disposed of properly and for me that means taking it to the hazardous waste facility. I haven't had to go there yet, but it should be a pretty straight forward visit and it's free. So, no complaints there about the service.

 

 

Another Method of Etching

 

Still, I wanted to make life simpler. So, I tried out another form of metal etching.

 

There are basically two kinds of metal etching: Chemical etching and Electrolytic etching. Chemical etching is what I've been doing up 'til now. Electrolytic etching is the exact opposite as electrolytic metal plating. Or, in actuality, it's exactly the same as electrolytic plating, but instead of taking a source metal and plating your work, your effectively using your work as the source metal and plating a piece of waste metal.

 

Seems like a good idea, but I didn't have the patience to try to work out all the kinks. You have to prep the metal pretty much the same way as with chemical etching. But, instead of putting it into an etchant bath of Ferric Chloride, you put it into a bath of Copper Sulfate solution, which is much safer to work with. You need a power source, like a car battery charger and piece of copper to deposit the "etched" metal onto.

 

The problems I ran into were that the copper sulfate solution (Ferric Chloride seems thicker to me) seemed to work its way underneath the photoresist a little, so the etching didn't look very clean. Also, I think the process works best if you use a sheet of copper for the process to deposit to and to keep it as parallel to the work as possible as closer areas etch faster than farther ones. Lastly, the power source has to be attached to the metal plate in such a way that the wiring or the part of the copper it's attached to doesn't get eaten away.

 

I'll have to revisit this in the future. And, since it is the same process as plating, I may have to give that a try too!

 

 

Press 'n' Peel Blue

 

Sometime after I gave up on that, I looked into another possibility to improve/simplify the process. It seems to me that the most difficult part of the etching process is basically getting the artwork onto the metal. The metal has to be really clean and the photoresist material has to be applied with no dirt or air trapped underneath. But, working with photoresist can be a bit of a pain as you also have to get the right exposure to transfer the image onto it and you have to process it in the developer solution just right so that all of the unexposed photoresist washed away and the exposed material is completely intact. Lately, I haven't been doing so well with this. Then I ran across an article on a modeling website about using a material called Press 'n' Peel Blue.

 

Press 'n' Peel Blue is a material that you print directly onto and apply heat to transfer directly to metal. The idea seemed like a godsend. I mean, no UV exposure to worry about, no transferring an image of an image, no need for using nasty developer solution (NaCl). Seemed too good to be true.

 

Well, for me, it was too good to be true. I had to invest in a laser printer to begin with because this method is specifically for transferring laser toner onto metal and it won't work with an inkjet printer. Laser printers can be had pretty cheaply, but toners cost a chunk of money. Since I wasn't planning heavy use, it seemed a reasonable investment. The one caveat is that, reportedly, Brother printer toners require too much heat to transfer so they aren't recommended. I didn't see any warnings about Canon printers, so that's what I ended up with.

 

 

 

 

To make a long and painful story short and less painful, I just couldn't get the toner to stick to the metal well enough. From what I've read about this stuff though, it's used for prototyping circuit boards and it's not uncommon for part of the artwork to not stick. You just use a sharpie marker to draw in any missing lines by hand. When your only worried about making a circuit connection, that's probably okay. But, when you need something to look perfect, that's not a good solution.

 

Just in case, I also tried using one of the copiers at FedEx Office to copy my artwork onto the Press 'n' Peel Blue sheet. But the results weren't any better when I tried transferring to the metal.

 

I tried cleaning the metal with acetone before and after rubbing it down with very fine grit pads, I tried cleaning the metal with steel wool, scouring pads, nothing helped. The stuff just wouldn't transfer cleanly.

 

 

 

 

At some point, maybe I'll try to find an HP laser printer as that is probably the most common brand and may work the best. But, that doesn't mean that this stuff is entirely useable for ship modeling.

 

 

Other Etchants

 

Finally, I started to experiment with other etchants. One seemed to be the best possibility and I was really trying it in conjunction with the Press 'n' Peel Blue testing. I didn't get very far with the test, but I decided to try out Sodium Persulfate. This stuff starts off clear and I'm told that you won't have the problems of undercuts in the etching (etching too much so that it cuts underneath your artwork). Because it's clear, you can see the process without removing and rinsing the work all the time. Also, I believe it's environmentally a bit better as you end up with (I think) mostly Copper Sulfate, though I haven't figured out what happens chemically to the sodium.

 

Anyway, I only tried this once and it was with the Press 'n' Peel Blue and I could tell that using a Sharpie marker on the artwork wasn't working out too well, so I stopped the process midstream. I'll have to try it again in the future, but it is a much slower process than using FeCl.

 

 

Back to the Start

 

For now, I'm going back to the start and see if I can deal with the process and the chemicals and at least get some decent etching done! I'll let you know how it goes...

 

 

Clare

[Jim Lad]

Clare,

 

Thanks for the detailed account of your etching experiments.  That's very helpful.

 

John

[catopower]

Hi John,

 

I just wish I could give you a detailed account of my SUCCESSFUL etching experience. Might be MORE helpful  

 

 

Clare

[mtaylor]

Clare,

Post your etching experience and issues here:  http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/forum/19-metal-work-soldering-and-metal-fittings/  Let's see if someone not following the scratch logs has any ideas. 

[gjdale]

Very interesting to read of your experiments Clare. Sometimes we learn as much from our failures (or those of others ) as we do from our successes. Thanks for sharing and I look forward to reading the detailed story of your future success.

[catopower]

Thanks for your comments Grant. I plan on writing about being successful with the brass etching very soon!  Just as soon as I succeed... 

 

 

 

Mark, thanks for the suggestion. I was figuring I'd eventually post there, but maybe I'll do it sooner rather than later. I'm going to give another shot to making the rings for the paddlewheels from etched brass. I just got my order in from Micromark on Friday, so I'll get back to that soon.

 

In the meantime, I got a bit distracted by starting work on the guns. The Saginaw carried two 30-pdr parrot rifles in 1870, along with four 24-pdr dahlgren boat guns. 

 

I bought myself a Sherline lathe a couple months ago and this will be the first attempt to make something significant with it. I've got very little lathe experience, so it's a slow learning process. I'll write a post about it, but I'll say now that I've been really enjoying the metal work. It was a bit intimidating at first, but I'm just now starting to get comfortable with it.

 

Initially, I figured I'd be lucky to make one of each type of gun and planned on using them as masters for casting. But, after I found that the initial silicone molds I made weren't very good, I decide with so few guns, I'd just turn them all. Anyway, I need the practice on the lathe.

 

More on that shortly.

 

 

Clare

[gjdale]

Congrats on the lathe purchase Clare. The Sherline stuff is really top notch and a joy to use - I keep looking for more excuses to use mine! (and I'm still very much a Learner Driver with it).

[catopower]

Thanks Brian, but it sure feels like it's moving along slowly... By the way, I've always wanted to mention that I like your big brain Talos IV guy photo.

 

Grant, I was really happy when I bought it, though for a while I really didn't know what to do with it. Plus, I had to figure out what accessories I needed, just to use the thing – I bought the very basic lathe with no accessories.

 

Clare

[catopower]

Turning the Parrot Guns

 

The Saginaw gave me my first opportunity to really put my new Sherline lathe to work and to put me to the test. This is the first lathe I’ve ever used, though I did learn to use a vertical mill many long years ago in a physics department machine shop.

 

I first took a drawing that was published in a Ships in Scale article of a 30 pounder Parrot rifle (originally from the National Archives) – the exact gun I needed for the Saginaw – and scanned it into Adobe Illustrator. I have a very old version of the software on an old Mac. It won’t run on my newer system, so I signed up for the trial version of Adobe’s Creative Cloud version. At 30 days, it was plenty of time for my purposes.

 

I scaled the image down so that it matched the model size and then used Illustrator’s measuring tool to get exact measurements for the guns. 

 

I can’t really tell you much about the process of making cannon barrels on the lathe except to say that I haven’t done so much math in a long time. Basic stuff, simple addition, subtraction, occasional division, but lots of it.

 

As I mentioned in a previous post, I’d figured on making one successful cannon and then using that for casting. But, I ended up turning both the Parrot guns instead. For this reason, I wrote out a step-by-step description of each cut and each related measurement so that I could repeat it easily.

 

I made three barrels so I could take the best of the three, though the very first couple I did, I rejected pretty quickly and had to start up a couple more.

 

To keep them as uniform as possible, I decided to do a couple steps at a time on one barrel and then switch barrels and repeat those steps, keeping all three barrels taking shape at the same time. This seemed to help keep me from making silly mistakes and kept the barrels fairly uniform.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know I should have cut the holes for the trunnions first, but I managed to add them later, though at great difficulty. I was just more concerned about getting the three barrels to look right, figuring I could deal with drilling them later.

 

 

 

 

 

To make a long story short, I managed to finish them and I’m happy with how they turned out. They aren't perfect, but I'm happy and when blackened, many of the flaws will be pretty well hidden from view. In the end, I learned a lot and really enjoyed the machine shop work.

 

As for the lathe itself, I originally wanted to get a vertical mill, but since I had more immediate need I went with the lathe. My funds are pretty tight, so I decided to simply accessorize and build up a mill over time. I know it’s more money in the long run, but it’s really easier to take smaller steps. I’ve since purchased a milling column that will fit in place of the lathe’s headstock and then the headstock mounts on the column. So, for $170, I have a basic mill. I’ve already tried it for some basic work and already I love it. Operation is so precise and so smooth.

 

Next on the Sherline, I’ll be turning the Dahlgren boat guns. They're simpler in shape so they should be easier to do. More on that later...

 

 

Clare

[WackoWolf]

I am glad your happy with your Sherline Lathe. They make some excellent machine and they stand by there stuff. I spent a heck of a lot of money with them and any time I had a problem or question they had no problem helping me. Heck one time they talk me out of spending more money, now that is nice. Keep the pictures coming.

[mtaylor]

Nice looking guns, Clare.  One thought... if you're interested.  Get some ScotchBrite pads (the green ones) in fine grit.  You can then polish the brass on the lathe and get rid of any tooling marks. 

 

Funny thing about this hobby... we have to be masters at woodworking, metal work, machining, sail making, carving, and knot-tying.  The real shipyards had different people doing all this work. 

[shark bait]

Great work with the lathe, Clare. You may consider them not perfect, but I think the rest of us would be very happy with your results. Well done, sir!!

[terryoneill]

Hey Clare, Great work , I have been a machine shop supervisor in my past and have seen many attempts that don't come close .

 

Terry

[gjdale]

Nicely done Clare. My wife describes the Lathe (and Mill for that matter) as "an Accessory sport" Fortunately for me, she is also very indulgent of my addiction!

[popeye the sailor]

great job on the cannons........they look awesome!

[Jim Lad]

Nice work on the guns, Clare.  A very professional looking amateur effort.

 

John

[catopower]

Wow, thanks all for the nice comments. I appreciate the support. You've all inspired me to finish up by turning the Dahlgrens...

 

So, here's the last of my machining for the moment. I turned the four 24-pounder Dahlgren boat guns yesterday. This turned out to be much more of a task than I'd expected. I did one test a week ago and it seemed easier.

 

I think the trickiest part was probably that I had to try to make all four identical – or as close as I could come.

 

 

 

 

Note that the cascabel on the end of the breech end is supposed to have a hole in it, but it was way too small for me to work with. I know for the future I'm supposed to drill the holes before I do the turning. But, at this scale and with the small size of the cannons, I think the tolerances necessary are too tight for my current skills. So, I elected not to drill them. I'll fake the elevating screws somehow.  

 

Also, I haven't soldered on the mounting lugs yet. That's next after I clean up the barrels a little.

 

 

 

 

By the way, here is a picture of my Sherline lathe modified with the addition of a milling column. Makes this thing extremely versatile, though I think the Unimat is more designed for versatility. Still, I only have to turn one hex screw to remove the head stock, place the milling column and tighten a similar screw, attach the head stock in its new location and tighten the screw again and it's all set.

 

 

Also, thanks for the tip Mark. I've certainly got a lot to learn on using machine tools. 

 

 

Clare

Edited August 15, 2013 by catopower

[shipmodel]

Hi Clare -

 

No need to fake the elevating screw mountings.  You obviously have the skills to drill the holes in the cascabels.  For my Swan 42' model I had to drill 0.012" holes through 0.040" brass rod.  Here is how I did it -  maybe it will work for you. 

 

First, cobble up a simple wooden board with glued on battens that will snugly hold the cannon barrels (see photo below).  Chuck a high speed drill bitt into a Dremel.  Start with one that is smaller than you want the final hole to be.  Check that the bitt spins exactly on its axis and does not wobble.  If it does, rechuck it in another spot. 

 

Dip the end of the bitt into household oil. Holding the barrel firmly in its jig, bring the drill bitt into contact with the metal where you want the hole to start and make a small depression.  Re-oil the bitt (do this at regular intervals and any time the bitt seems to be working too hard).  Take your time and back the bitt out occasionally.  I did not have to go through much metal, so I did it with a hand-held Dremel, but you could do it with your Sherline or a Dremel drill press. 

 

Once the first hole is made you can expand it to final size with a large bitt.  This hole should go much faster and easier than the first.  Now you can feed a miniature screw rod through it to make a very realistic elevating screw.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Dan

 

[mtaylor]

Clare,

For a noob, scratch that, even for a non-noob, the boat howitzers look great.   Dan has an excellent idea/method of drilling those holes.   There's also this which works:  http://www.micromark.com/vise-for-spherical-objects,10285.html

 

Try Dan's method first as I think that's what most use..  a homemade jig,  I've got mine..

[catopower]

Thanks Dan and Mark for the suggestions.

 

Dan, I may give that a try. Not sure how to keep the drill bit centered on something as small as .050" and keep it from wobbling. I'm a little concerned about destroying the cascabel, so I'll try on some similarly sized wire first. If I can get that to work well enough I'll try it out on the cannons.

 

Thanks for the encouragement!

 

 

Clare