Golden Hind by mfrazier - OcCre - scale 1:85

[mfrazier]

I finally chose a kit by OcCre to start building. I chose the Golden Hind. The kit is a little smaller than I actually wanted, but I think it will be fun to build. I ordered the kit last week and it came today. While waiting for it to arrive, I moved some equipment from the machine shop "clean room" into the house as I am not able to get the wheelchair into the shop outside.

This is the area I set up to build in.

 

I am impressed with most of the quality of the kit, especially for the price.  The first thing on my agenda is to build a needed way to hold the ship as it is built.  I set up a board to hold things square while the bulkheads are fitted and then glued.

I  cut some pieces of 2 inch aluminum angle and mounted them on each side of the part to hold it tight and vertical. It is a snug slide into and out of the angle brackets. I cut a few extra pieces of angle to use as squares to clamp the bulkheads in place square when glued. having the machine shop and a wood shop is a big advantage, because I can literally make anything I need. I will be building a simple keel clamp to hold the ship for planking the hull and the rest of the build. I will do that between fitting and gluing the bulkheads on this board. I am not to concerned about the build itself as much as I am not being familiar with all the terminology of the ship parts as you guys are and am a little intimidated trying to discuss the build not knowing all the correct terms. Some of the pieces are still "do hickeys" or "thingies" to me until I memorize their correct name. This part is a learning process for me, so please be patient If I don't call something by its correct name. I will do my best to learn all the correct terms, hopefully with some help from you folks. 

[mfrazier]

I spent some time studying the plans and while they are well made, they have some vague areas and it takes a lot of studying to figure some things out. They are in another language but have some sections in English also.

    I dry fit all the bulk heads and checked their fit. They were all tight , so after studying and rechecking everything, I decided to glue them in place one at a time, clamping them square until the glue set and then moving to the next. 

I used paper clips for clamps and the angles for squares to hold till the glue set. I glued the last three bulk heads in place and after looking at it, I decided to dry fit the deck on the bulk heads and found the deck would not set all the way down on the front end.

I am glad I did because one of the bulk heads was not lining up with the deck at the correct height. I had to work the glue joints loose and drop the one bulk head  another 3/32" to make everything fit. Now the deck sets correctly. 

     The tolerances on these wood parts are going to take some getting used to. I am used to working with everything being within .001" or less working with machined metal parts. The wood is a little more forgiving and not quite as critical. I will spend the weekend assembling the hull framework. I think it might be best to make filler blocks for the front of the hull to have more area to attach the planks to. The plans don't call for them, but it seems like a good idea. 

  I have a question. The plans call for nailing the first layer of planks on ( the hull is double planked). Is this considered the best way to do it? If so, should they be glued also and if so are the nails temporary? I am wondering, because the second layer of planning is very thin and unless the nail heads are sunk, I worry they may make bumps in the thin outer planks. I hope this makes sense.

Thanks,

Mark F

 

Edited February 16, 2019 by mfrazier
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[Katsumoto]

A nice ship she is, good luck with the build sir!

[Baker]

 

4 hours ago, mfrazier said:

have a question. The plans call for nailing the first layer of planks on ( the hull is double planked). Is this considered the best way to do it? If so, should they be glued also and if so are the nails temporary? I am wondering, because the second layer of planning is very thin and unless the nail heads are sunk, I worry they may make bumps in the thin outer planks. I hope this makes sense.

Thanks,

Be sure to use glue to fix the first layer. And where necessary, nails are usually used.
The filler blocks is also a good idea.

 

[mfrazier]

I planked the decks while the hull framework was curing and dry fit them on the hull. The decks are sanded smooth. The plans show using a sharp pencil to mark the plank seams and make nail marks. I tried this and I didn't think it looked good, so I sanded them clean.( It looks better in the picture). Is there a trick to this look? My only other choice is not to mark them. I shall think on this for a while, I guess.

[mfrazier]

Ok, after trying several things, I found a way to get the look I wanted. I used a .5mm mechanical drafting pencil. It makes a very fine line and did the nail marks really well. I will do this on all the decks.

[mfrazier]

I got the decks on and the top panels. The panels are sanded smooth with all the high spots smoothed out. After I profile the edges of the bulk heads and install the filler blocks, it will be ready for the first layer of planking. I was a little disappointed in the quality of fit of the deck pieces and the panels that are installed. There was a LOT of fitting to get these to line up well, but I am fairly satisfied with the end result. I thought the kit would be more accurately cut than it was, but it just makes a good challenge I think once the first layer of planking is installed and sanded, things will be much better. I have read that better job done on the first layer, the easier and better the end result will be. I look forward to the planking and finishing of the hull.

[Old Collingwood]

Keep up the good work  - I dont think there is a kit out there that does not need some form of surgery.

 

OC.

[pontiachedmark]

Gidday Mark.

I have just started the Occre Apostol Felipe. No build log as I am currently without camera.

My instructions also call for the pencil to represent caulking. I too opted for the 0.5 mm.

It looks like you are off to a good start.

Please don't worry too much about terminology.

Most members here are forgiving and will take the time to explain.

Remember to ask questions. Most builds are a learning curve.

Wishing you all the best.

Mark.

[mfrazier]

Thanks, guys. Yeah, I figured there would be some fitting of parts, but I didn't know it would be this much. It is all good though, I now know more what to expect and will plan a little more ahead. Everything I do now affects something else down the road that I don't know about yet. The other problem is the language. I'm guessing it is Italian? (Not sure where the kit is made). The plans have both languages, a lot of English for the basic stuff but most of it is another language. The parts inventory is entirely in a foreign language to me and that makes it a little difficult to figure out, but that just ups the challenge a little. I love a good challenge. I read a few other build logs before I started and as I go, I am remembering things others have done and this has been a big help in avoiding a possible problem.

[AntonyUK]

Hi Mark.

Nice start to your build. And a nice ship as well.

 

On 2/17/2019 at 1:26 AM, mfrazier said:

Ok, after trying several things, I found a way to get the look I wanted. I used a .5mm mechanical drafting pencil. It makes a very fine line and did the nail marks really well. I will do this on all the decks.

On  planking the planks are also treenailed at each beam. Not just at the ends of the plank.

The pencil looks perfect for your deck.😀

 

Regards Antony.

[mfrazier]

On 2/18/2019 at 8:44 AM, AntonyUK said:

Hi Mark.

Nice start to your build. And a nice ship as well.

 

On  planking the planks are also treenailed at each beam. Not just at the ends of the plank.

The pencil looks perfect for your deck.😀

 

Regards Antony.

That makes a lot of sense. I hadn't thought of that. I did what the plans showed, but it makes sense the deck planks would be nailed at each beam.

[mfrazier]

I got the first layer of planking on. I followed the instructions and pictures in the plans and I think it came out pretty good. It is rough sanded and came out very smooth. There are a couple of really small areas that may need a little filler, but that is all. Which brings me to my two questions.

       1. What kind of filler do you guys recommend for a small thin low spot? 

       2. The second layer of planking is very thin , almost like a veneer. They are also 5mm wide but thin. What glue do you use for these? I used BSI instant glue for the first layer, but it doesn't seem like that would be good for this thin finish layer. Any recommendations on installing the second layer would be appreciated.

[jeff shreve]

Mark, You're off to a nice start so far. The nails used for the first planking should be removed before the second layer is applied. Small diagonal cutting pliers will work. I use a sprue cutter from plastic modeling to grab the nail heads and pull them out. For the thin second layer I usually use CA/super glue but other also use a contact glue. I use wood glue for most of the assembly.  I cut and fit each plank and then use a very small amount of the CA applied to the first planking layer with a toothpick and press the second layer planks into place. Works for me but you may find a better method.

 

[vossiewulf]

Well that was a fast and apparently painless first planking and it looks like you did a very good job. Usually there is considerably more angst and anguishing and questions the first time someone planks a hull. God knows I was thrashing around trying to figure out a process that worked for me.

 

I've switched back and forth between wood and metal work for most of my life, neither is easier, they are just different. You can work to surprisingly high accuracy with wood also, if you're willing to invest the time in getting the right tools and making sure they operate as well as they can.

 

One thing I will say about wood is when it comes to glue, less is more. You look like you're not using an excessive amount of glue already, but the tightness of your joinery is very much controlled by how much glue is in the joint, too much and you'll have a visible glue line no matter how much clamping pressure you have. In fact to make my planking fit better, I used no glue at all on the edges of my planks.

[vossiewulf]

Filler and glues are almost matters of religion. There are numerous talc-based fillers, usually with some wood fibers, all of which work fine but they also dry out in whatever container they are in probably before you have call to use them again. There are some petroleum-based ones like Plastic Wood. Lots of people use old-fashioned Elmer's wood filler with no complaints. Best to try a couple and see which you prefer.

 

Ditto with glue. Most people use standard yellow PVA glue, but a minority (like me) use CA for most things, I've used it almost exclusively in my build and in lots of aircraft I built before, because I like not having to solve endless clamping problems. However CA is also consequently very unforgiving in that you really only get one chance to put a piece down in the right spot. If you want time to adjust and fiddle and you don't mind needing to clamp everything, then PVA is a better choice.

[mfrazier]

Thanks. I found the planking process not very difficult. Everything is common sense for me ( no matter what I do). Nothing overwhelms me because I break everything down to simple tasks and only concentrate on the one task at a time. This makes all things much simpler and easier. I made a few mistakes probably or could have laid a few planks better. I experimented with the planking to try to find the best way to lay them tightly with the least amount of cutting and fitting. Being the under layer I figured it the best place to experiment. I used the CA glue and it worked well, and you are correct, less is more. Too much and it does not set. I thought of using it on the second planking but those boards are so thin and flexible, I kind of thought they may need the entire back side glued to keep them tight on the hull surface, but that doesn't seem to practical with super glue. Guess I will think on it some more. I don't have a plank bender so to bend the planks, I put a pan of water on the stove and brought it to a boil. Then turned the stove burner to low to keep the water hot. I dipped the part of the plank to bend in the hot water for between 30 seconds to a minute.( If you look closely tiny air bubbles come out of the wood in the hot water), when they pretty much stop, (30 to 60 seconds) remove the wood from the water. I then use the BACK edge of the blade on my utility knife to make light indents every 1/16 to 1/8 inch on the back side of the plank while lying on the bench. This let the softened, damp wood bend easily and smoothly. ( The tighter the bend, the closer and deeper the indents need to be)on. Since the wood did not soak long it will dry quickly. I found this to work excellent without buying expensive tools or gadgets. I thought about posting some photos of the process if  it would help anyone else.

[Papa]

I love your neat work area!

[vossiewulf]

If you decide to go with CA, the method I've been using for many years is to apply the glue in dots. One, no smearing glue around, and two, it increases the open time on the CA significantly. With some practice it's pretty easy to size the dots and space them correctly for continuous glue with no squeezeout.

[nel2lar]

Hello Mark,

That is going to be one beautiful piece when finished. You are making head way with the build and I love how you transition past learned skills the go forward at a nice pace. I remember how some of those that did not believe you speed and ability. 

You are amazing and I am very proud to call you friend.

Nelson 

[nel2lar]

I guess I should have scanned the new entries before I posted. Needless to say I have used CA before and I have some beefs with it, mostly when you open it if you do not use it all it will get hard on me. What I did was tried other products and the one I fell in love with "Gorilla Glue" and I do not have any affiliation with Gorilla Glue, I just like the way it works. Apply the glue on one side and moisten the piece to glue down and set in place, clamp and it is there. Gorilla Glue 3.75 oz bottle and a box of toothpicks, my go to for glueing. 

Hope this helps someone.

Nelson

[mfrazier]

Well, I began the second planking. It started out a diaster. I was having a hard time gluing these thin, flimsy strips. I am using CA and I got it everywhere. There is so much super glue on my fingertips I can't work the touch screen on my phone. I think I finally got a routine worked out. I took great care to make this layer as perfect as possible, and then IT happened. I dropped the hull on the bench and damaged two small areas. It took me several hours to cut and fit patches in this spots and glue them in. I got them fixed to where they can barely be found but it wasn't easy. I have tremors on my left side and sometimes I can't hold things well and to top it off, I am Left handed. I sanded the area in the photo where the second planking is installed to see how it will look and I am very pleased with it so far. I think when done and finish sanded it will be good. One of my personal flaws is I am a perfectionist and if something isn't darn close to perfect, I can't accept it and thus I sometimes do things over that others can't figure out why. I have been trying to get over that for quite a while but not a lot of success.

      Another question. What do you guys use for a finish on the hull, on the decks? I was thinking polyurethane. Gloss or matte finish. The hull and decks get a different finish? Spray or brush on?

[mfrazier]

Oh,  something else. I did not pull the nails out of the first planking. The plans didn't say anything about that so I assumed they get left in. When I nailed, I took the time to countersink the nails to make sanding the first layer easier. It would be too difficult to remove them after countersinking them. It doesn't seem to be a problem.

[vossiewulf]

33 minutes ago, mfrazier said:

Another question. What do you guys use for a finish on the hull, on the decks? I was thinking polyurethane. Gloss or matte finish. The hull and decks get a different finish? Spray or brush on?

The answer is... yes

 

With ship modeling, everyone agrees that you should get the structure and the rigging as perfectly accurate as you can. However, when it comes to finish, including whether you paint it, paint parts of it, or none of it, and what glossiness clear coat you use, it's all up to the builder. Some contemporary models were all natural wood, others were elaborately painted as a line ship, even in the 1700s it was a matter of taste.

 

That said, most people go with satin clear coats. I am going with matte, because I painted some of my ship and glossy paint on a scale object looks plastic to me.

 

Poly is of course easy to work with, but I find its clarity poor with anything but pure gloss, so I went with old-fashioned nitrocellulose lacquer. Your mileage can and probably will vary. You can also get very good results with various oil finishes.

 

WRT stain, many people use standard Minwax stains. I use alcohol-based aniline dyes from a luthier shop, dyes are molecular color whereas stains are suspending pigment in a medium and to one degree or another stains obscure the grain. You can go quite dark with dyes and still have perfect fidelity in the grain.

[mfrazier]

Thank you for that information. I was considering a tung oil finish. As near as I can tell, the Golden Hind had a lot of colorful painted striping. I am not sure yet if I like that. I been looking at online photos of the two reproduction ships. The kit came with printed paper stripes to cut out and glue on, but I have my doubts that will work well. I still have plenty of time to think about that though.

[vossiewulf]

The colorful geometric shapes were an at least English style of the time. See below a review of Revenge, Drake's ship during the Armada campaign, and a build log from Xodar who is working on the Revenge.

 

It would look a bit odd to have an English ship of the period not have some geometric styling, so don't rule out the paper. Or at least don't rule out the concept of the paper, if you don't like the quality they've provided, you get a graphics program and make and print your own, either on paper or white/clear decal film.

 

You also need to decide the level of detail you're going for in your model. You can work quickly building just what the kit specifies, or you can make improvements and corrections and add missing detail until most of the kit parts are thrown away, or somewhere between. But it's a basic specification of the build to which you need to be consistently working.

 

 

 

 

[mfrazier]

I would very much like to use the geometric designs, but I have reservations about gluing these paper to the wood and it looking good. I have never had success gluing light weight paper to anything. The paper they are printed on is not very heavy so I may take a scrap of the paper and experiment gluing it to a piece of scrap wood. I could scan the designs and print them on card stock if the paper is too thin.

       I am disappointed some in the plans for this kit as there is not much information. Thanks plans consist of 6 pages of photos of the kit in various stages of construction and that is it besides an inventory of the parts list which I can't read because there is no English on it.  So I am studying photos trying to establish details. I don't mind this except it is difficult to determine the order some things need done in. I do plan to do as much detail work as I can. 

[vossiewulf]

Yes, plans and instructions vary wildly in quality from wrong and internally inconsistent to non-existent to 100 page instruction manuals and 12 full sheets of plans. Knowing the quality of those items is very important before you buy. The most consistently good in this respect is Model Shipways, their plans and instructions are always quality. Otherwise even within one manufacturer's offerings, some kits can have good instructions and the next is crap. And the ones that often get the crappiest instructions are the beginner level kits where they're trying to keep costs down.

 

Details will be a bit tricky due to Golden Hind's 16th century origin, we don't have good plans or even accurate sketches or paintings of ships, artists during this period did not think perspective and accuracy were important. I recommend you pick up Historic Ship Models as he takes each major functional element of a ship and shows versions of how they looked from the earliest records onwards.

 

Otherwise with a ship this early your best best is to search the build logs here for similar period ships, and also in the gallery of completed kit and scratchbuilt ships.

 

Starting from the point you finish your second planking, the order in which you do things becomes increasingly important, and it's critical to do things in the right order with rigging. Very basically, finish the deck planking and bulwarks and attach anything to the bulwarks that belongs there, drill holes in the deck for any eyebolts, and then finish the deck and bulwarks. After that finish has dried, add the eyebolts to the deck. The deck furniture should be assembled, prepped and finished off-model and only placed on deck when absolutely necessary (just prior to doing the guns). Guns are the same, finished off-model and put in place after deck furniture and then gun rigging is added.

[mfrazier]

Vossiewulf, I thank you and everyone else here for your help and guidance so far. It is very much appreciated.   I really can't explain why I chose the Golden Hind to build. I looked at kits for a couple weeks, maybe it chose me. This model is a little smaller  than I thought ( I thought the scale was different than it actually was). When thinking that it was the one I wanted to build, I looked the ship up on line and did find not a lot of information and what I did find seemed to be inconsistent. I read about and looked at photos of the two full size replicas that were made and they aren't even consistent and some seem to think not entirely authentic in detail. Maybe this is a good one for me, as building it is medical therapy for me. It is to keep my mind busy ( doctor told me I needed a new hobby) and everything I do must be a challenge to keep me interested. I was not so interested in historical detail as much as doing a good job on how the build turned out. Now my thinking is changing some in that respect, so my next build will require more thought  and research. Since ships are a new subject to me, I am sure I will make a lot of errors in being historically correct and most likely will do some things because they are pleasing to my taste. I do things for fun and enjoyment, as that is what retirement is to me. I will be pleased if it looks nice when completed whether correct or not. The next one ....... that may be a different story 😁.

[Slowhand]

Hi, if you’re  in the UK look at Timberline’s at Tonbridge website and look at the Decorative and Specialist hardwoods there are some geometric patterns on wood which might suit your needs, expensive but when you consider how long it takes to make a model Not too bad IMO