mtaylor Posted June 16, 2013 Share #61 Posted June 16, 2013 Harvey, Even my 10" saw has fence issues. The biggest problem I see is that the fence has to be removable. And since most of us aren't engineers or machinists, they have to make it simple and fast. It might be worth looking into however, and seeing what improvements can be made. Quote Mark "The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me Current Build: Past Builds: La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD Triton Cross-Section NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64 Non-Ship Model: On hold, maybe forever: CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capnharv2 Posted June 16, 2013 Author Share #62 Posted June 16, 2013 Mine too Mark. I thought there may be a concern that the fence had to give way if the workpiece got jammed and cause the blade to fly apart. I want to get a closer look at Jim's saw to see how his fence works. I may be reinventing the wheel here. . . Thanks, Harvey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael mott Posted June 16, 2013 Share #63 Posted June 16, 2013 This issue seems to me that of wanting to use thin blades to save on the costs of cutting up expensive raw materials ie. exotic hardwoods. I again will go back to the same comments that I made earlier, "slitting saws" were not designed for cutting strip-wood they were designed for slitting metal with lots of lubricants. Speed seems also to be a concern, given the time that it seems to take to build models with exotic hard woods what is the rush with regards to making strips? I have posted elsewhere that making thin strips of wood can be accomplished with full sized commercial saws or with hand tools. I think and this is my own personal opinion that we get pulled into having to do something a particular way because we are led to believe that this should be possible, and sometimes it is not necessarily the best way. That said I am a firm believer in using the right tool for the job. The best intentions of those selling "Model Making Tools" might not be the best tool for the Job. and further to that the makers of such Model making tools had certain limitations in mind when they designed those tools. I fear that sometimes they are pushed beyond their limits, and then the toolmaker is blamed. I will get down off the soapbox now! Michael mtaylor, EricWilliamMarshall, AntonyUK and 2 others 5 Quote Current builds Bristol Pilot Cutter 1:8; Skipjack 19 foot Launch 1:8; Herreshoff Buzzards Bay 14 1:8 Other projects Pilot Cutter 1:500 ; Maria, 1:2 Now just a memory Future model Gill Smith Catboat Pauline 1:8 Finished projects A Bassett Lowke steamship Albertic 1:100 Anything you can imagine is possible, when you put your mind to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtaylor Posted June 16, 2013 Share #64 Posted June 16, 2013 Michael, Valid points on everything. Quote Mark "The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me Current Build: Past Builds: La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD Triton Cross-Section NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64 Non-Ship Model: On hold, maybe forever: CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capnharv2 Posted June 16, 2013 Author Share #65 Posted June 16, 2013 Michael, Thanks for your comments. I agree we sometimes see how somebody else does it, and say "I can do the same thing" without knowing or seeing how things are set up and what the end goal is. I'm a sucker for doing this from a picture in a book and not understanding the hows and whys behind it, but thinking that's the way it's done I'm reminded of a picture in a book by LC Mason's "Using the small lathe", where he shows a "straightforward setup for turning". Then he says "everything in this picture is wrong" and goes on to explain all the things wrong with the setup. It took me several times to see what he was talking about, but I finally understood. There are many ways to accomplish a task. Some are faster, some give better quality, some may do both, and each person has their own way of interpreting the process. The original point of this thread was that I experienced something unexpected, and, partly due to lack of experience (I may be a retired engineer, but I'm not a machinist) thought that there was something wrong with the tool or something wrong with how I was using the tool. I believe the problem was the latter of the two. On the positive side, nobody got hurt, and I've learned a lot of things about table saws and cutting that are useful now and in the future. And for that, I am grateful. Thanks, Harvey WackoWolf, tkay11 and mtaylor 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkay11 Posted June 16, 2013 Share #66 Posted June 16, 2013 (edited) Very good comments, Michael, Mark and Harvey. This thread has been really interesting. As Harvey has noted, it has been exploring different aspects. We have the 'wobbly blade' strand, the 'fence' strand' and the 'fit for purpose' strand, all interlinked. The point about being trapped by convention is really nice, along with the problem of differences of interpretation. However I had thought that for ship modelling the thin blades with low kerf have specific function: to provide thin slits in wood at a small depth. My personal interest in using them, for example, is for gratings, slicing small (e.g. 4mm x 0.5mm) planks to smaller widths, making accurate cuts in very small pieces, cutting slots to hold slivers of wood and, in the absence of a mill, making shallow grooves. That's why I felt I had to buy more than one thickness of the thin type. Because of my lack of experience with saws, I may have gone over the top in this regard, but I'm now confident that I have the range I would like. Part of the problem for tyros such as myself is that it's hard to find resources that explain all these aspects of using a saw before we plunge in and buy them. I really liked Michael's suggestion of joining up with a model engineering society. I should have thought of something like that before buying a saw! I have not had any problem at all with the 80mm 1.6mm kerf tungsten carbide blade provided with the saw for cutting at a depth of 20mm or so. I bought 25mm thickness oak and pear pen turning blanks to experiment just to see what the saw could do. I also found 18mm solid oak floorboards left on our street which are extremely hard. The tungsten carbide blade cuts through all these with ease. So it is an easy job to cut down the larger sizes using this blade and using the smaller width blades for the smaller work. The discussion of the blade capabilities has clarified the problem Harvey brought up in the first instance, so now I'm looking forward to future discussions about how best to modify the fence! It's not that I can't cut to a specified width with the saw. It's more that it's extremely fiddly with back-and-forth readjustment. So it's become more of a challenge than a necessity to look for ways of improving the fence to make our lives easier. Even without a further modification it's certainly a whole lot easier than trying to do it with a hand saw. I see it as part of the process of learning to work with the tools we have (even though in this case I gave up on the hand saw rather quickly!). In order to avoid the problem of jumping in without knowledge, and following Harvey's thought, I'll now be buying 'Using the small lathe' which is available on Amazon in the UK at a very reasonable price of less than a tenner. [Edit] The reason, of course, being to prepare myself and to think through the value of having a lathe. And sorry for intruding, Harvey, with comments that may have been superfluous to your original interest! It's just that I am delighted when we have a thread that illuminates so much. Tony Edited June 16, 2013 by tkay11 Quote === First build: Caldercraft HM Cutter Sherbourne 1763 FINISHED 2nd build: Triton cross-section COMPLETED 3rd build: La Chaloupe Armée / 42ft Armed Longboat of 1834 by tkay11 – scale 1:36, plans by M. Delacroix COMPLETED 4th build: Allège d’Arles 1833 (Ancre) POB by tkay11 – scale 1:100, plans by F. Fissore COMPLETED Working on La Jacinthe 1:96 POB (ANCRE publications) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael mott Posted June 16, 2013 Share #67 Posted June 16, 2013 Harvey, Tony, Mark, yes this thread is interesting for all the reasons that you have all mentioned. Tony your comments about the fence and Harvey making the comment about having trouble with his fence on the full size saw brings to mind that I have had the same issues with fences. It seem to me that the issue happens after the wood being cut passes the blade. I believe this is because as we cut the wood we release some of the built in tensions that are inherent in the materials, after all they are organic and have grown in varying conditions. The nature of the blade is to cut a straight line, and if the wood begins to spring away from the blade on the open side there usually is not a problem, if however the wood springs toward the fence lets say even 50% of the time then we fin that two things occur at the same time. The wood is being moved away from the fence and simultaneously jamming at the side of the rotating blade, this can potentially cause some burning (certainly has on some of my wood) this is why I have spent some time looking at how I use my saw and how fences work in general. on another thread I spoke about keeping the larger portion of the wood next to the fence and so the piece being cut off has more of a tendency to curl should it be incline to do so. Something that has just occurred to me would be to set up the fence with a parallel strip say 1/8thand use some double sided tape and stick it to the fence so that one end is just past the trailing edge of the blade, so that as the wood passes the blade the wood has some "breathing "room as it passes the blade. I would only use this set up if I was using the fence as the limiting factor of setting the width. I still prefer to keep the wider part of the wood between the blade and the fence and increment it across with each pass, using the stop that was discussed here . Our experiences with all of our tools can give us new insights as to ways and ideas that can build the general body of knowledge, this is one of the things that I enjoy so much about this site. Michael Quote Current builds Bristol Pilot Cutter 1:8; Skipjack 19 foot Launch 1:8; Herreshoff Buzzards Bay 14 1:8 Other projects Pilot Cutter 1:500 ; Maria, 1:2 Now just a memory Future model Gill Smith Catboat Pauline 1:8 Finished projects A Bassett Lowke steamship Albertic 1:100 Anything you can imagine is possible, when you put your mind to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkay11 Posted June 16, 2013 Share #68 Posted June 16, 2013 Excellent thoughts, Michael. I have been noticing exactly that behaviour when I measure the front and back of the cut. I even see it happening as the wood goes past the blade. So even though the fence is locked tight and parallel to the blade, it still happens. It can lead to up to a 0.4mm variation over a 10cm length. I saw your stop when you first posted, but forgot about it, not thinking about the significance. I'll study it now and see if I can set one up. I can't envision your 1/8" parallel strip idea. Is the idea that the wood comes up to the strip and then is pushed away from the fence? Thanks again for your expertise and experimentation! Tony Quote === First build: Caldercraft HM Cutter Sherbourne 1763 FINISHED 2nd build: Triton cross-section COMPLETED 3rd build: La Chaloupe Armée / 42ft Armed Longboat of 1834 by tkay11 – scale 1:36, plans by M. Delacroix COMPLETED 4th build: Allège d’Arles 1833 (Ancre) POB by tkay11 – scale 1:100, plans by F. Fissore COMPLETED Working on La Jacinthe 1:96 POB (ANCRE publications) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtaylor Posted June 16, 2013 Share #69 Posted June 16, 2013 Micheal, What I've seen and tried (with limited success but that could be my incompetence) is run a 'false fence" from the front of the saw to just past the leading edge of the blade. I'm still playing with it and when I figure it out, I'll do pics. As I recall there's some videos on Youtube I also have this link which full of great tips: http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/afv/topic/aff/8/aft/119461/afpg/2/Default.aspx tkay11 1 Quote Mark "The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me Current Build: Past Builds: La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD Triton Cross-Section NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64 Non-Ship Model: On hold, maybe forever: CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael mott Posted June 16, 2013 Share #70 Posted June 16, 2013 Hi Tony here is a sketch of what I was explaining. Michael tkay11 1 Quote Current builds Bristol Pilot Cutter 1:8; Skipjack 19 foot Launch 1:8; Herreshoff Buzzards Bay 14 1:8 Other projects Pilot Cutter 1:500 ; Maria, 1:2 Now just a memory Future model Gill Smith Catboat Pauline 1:8 Finished projects A Bassett Lowke steamship Albertic 1:100 Anything you can imagine is possible, when you put your mind to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkay11 Posted June 16, 2013 Share #71 Posted June 16, 2013 (edited) Yeah! That's a neat idea. Seems like you two (Michael and Mark) think alike. Thanks for the link as well, Mark. What pleasure there is in these little excursions and experiments! I look forward to hearing more from you and anyone else looking at this. Meanwhile I'll do a bit of experimenting on my own. What is interesting is that when I cut two parallel grooves 0.5mm deep and 0.7mm apart, using my 0.6mm wide blade, the grooves remain perfectly parallel. In case you're interested, I'm doing that because I'm still experimenting with ways of making blocks without using a mill, following the classic way of making them. Thanks Tony Edited June 16, 2013 by tkay11 Quote === First build: Caldercraft HM Cutter Sherbourne 1763 FINISHED 2nd build: Triton cross-section COMPLETED 3rd build: La Chaloupe Armée / 42ft Armed Longboat of 1834 by tkay11 – scale 1:36, plans by M. Delacroix COMPLETED 4th build: Allège d’Arles 1833 (Ancre) POB by tkay11 – scale 1:100, plans by F. Fissore COMPLETED Working on La Jacinthe 1:96 POB (ANCRE publications) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkay11 Posted June 16, 2013 Share #72 Posted June 16, 2013 Just finished reading the article on the site referenced by Mark (Cutting Scale Lumber on a Table Saw, Tips and Techniques). Really excellent! Thanks again, Mark. Tony mtaylor 1 Quote === First build: Caldercraft HM Cutter Sherbourne 1763 FINISHED 2nd build: Triton cross-section COMPLETED 3rd build: La Chaloupe Armée / 42ft Armed Longboat of 1834 by tkay11 – scale 1:36, plans by M. Delacroix COMPLETED 4th build: Allège d’Arles 1833 (Ancre) POB by tkay11 – scale 1:100, plans by F. Fissore COMPLETED Working on La Jacinthe 1:96 POB (ANCRE publications) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael mott Posted June 16, 2013 Share #73 Posted June 16, 2013 Mark Thanks for the link, Might I suggest that you make that one a sticky, at the beginning of tools. I use and do all of those suggestions and the author did a superb job of illustrating and explaining them. Michael tkay11 1 Quote Current builds Bristol Pilot Cutter 1:8; Skipjack 19 foot Launch 1:8; Herreshoff Buzzards Bay 14 1:8 Other projects Pilot Cutter 1:500 ; Maria, 1:2 Now just a memory Future model Gill Smith Catboat Pauline 1:8 Finished projects A Bassett Lowke steamship Albertic 1:100 Anything you can imagine is possible, when you put your mind to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtaylor Posted June 16, 2013 Share #74 Posted June 16, 2013 (edited) Michael Excellent idea. I posted it in the Important Links section, but not as pinned. I think it would be more appropriate there. I also added a direct link to the PDF: http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/stevec/MLS-Topic-Article/BobSorenson/MillingScaleLumberRev-01.pdf Edited June 16, 2013 by mtaylor Added PDF link tkay11 1 Quote Mark "The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me Current Build: Past Builds: La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD Triton Cross-Section NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64 Non-Ship Model: On hold, maybe forever: CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stantona Posted June 19, 2013 Share #75 Posted June 19, 2013 Mark, That is an excellent article. I was just getting ready to suggest using the bandsaw and thickness planer combination to make accurate small lumber when I see it covered quite well in the same PDF file. I have made lots of small lumber and not so small lumber in that manner. And, of course, the lumber has a sanded finished. I have the small Proxxon bandsaw which I bought to cut smaller pieces of metal and I must say it does that job well. But I also have a larger 16 inch bandsaw. I mention that to add a comment in relation to this topic. A bandsaw is one of those tools you can not only cut to it's capacity, but you can also safely cut very small strips of wood for that thickness sander. No, the 4 inch Byrnes saw blade does not fit in the Proxxon saw. I thought for sure I'd have word about the expansion slots in the Proxxon blades by now but I haven't heard back yet. I'll wait a couple more days and give him a call. Just a quick comment on taking up with model engineering clubs. Great idea for table top metal machining but you might be disappointed for model wood working. For that you have some of the best and finest right here on MSW. I have really enjoyed all of the posts on this topic. Cheers, Alex mtaylor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkay11 Posted June 19, 2013 Share #76 Posted June 19, 2013 Nice comments, Alex -- especially about the bandsaw. I hadn't realised before just how useful a bandsaw is. Just on the clubs: I was thinking they might be a way in to handling machines with someone who knows. I was at the Model Engineering Exhibition at the Alexandra Palace in London in January, and it was fantastic for me when one of the exhibitors invited me to make something on his lathe. Those few minutes did far more to stimulate my interest and provide some understanding than a host of words, pictures and descriptions. I'm one of those people who need the 'hands on' experience as well. There's no denying the huge value of the expertise on this site. I have learned a lot from it. It's just that there's often a lot more that people take for granted in their explanations (as a result of their familiarity with equipment) and it's often the tiny details that make the difference. The article posted by Mark is one of those rare articles that really do seem to go to the very basic first steps which are invaluable for beginners such as myself. Tony Quote === First build: Caldercraft HM Cutter Sherbourne 1763 FINISHED 2nd build: Triton cross-section COMPLETED 3rd build: La Chaloupe Armée / 42ft Armed Longboat of 1834 by tkay11 – scale 1:36, plans by M. Delacroix COMPLETED 4th build: Allège d’Arles 1833 (Ancre) POB by tkay11 – scale 1:100, plans by F. Fissore COMPLETED Working on La Jacinthe 1:96 POB (ANCRE publications) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stantona Posted June 20, 2013 Share #77 Posted June 20, 2013 I hear you Tony. Nothing like 'hands on'. I've spent over sixty years building models, woodworking, and a little machining. Lots of books and trial and error. And yet...so far to go. I'm starting to believe I'll never learn it all!! I called the saw man today and he said he will have some answers tomorrow. We'll see. Cheers, Alex capnharv2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkay11 Posted June 20, 2013 Share #78 Posted June 20, 2013 Wow!! I have just gone through the process of cutting out featherboards as in the article linked by Mark. I fixed one to the table surface to hold the wood from the side, and clamped one to the fence. The difference this has made is astonishing! I have perfect cuts every time now in pear and apple (the wood, that is, not the fruit), with no detectable difference in the width of the cut between front and back. No burn marks, and the wood comes out as though it's been planed. In addition I'm now quite comfortable with moving the fence less than a millimetre at a time -- though it's taken some time to learn the trick. I now really can see the potential of the Proxxon FET. Now I want to teach myself how to do the gratings as well continuing to figure out block making. Getting there, slowly but surely! Thanks again, Mark -- you've eased my path! Tony mtaylor 1 Quote === First build: Caldercraft HM Cutter Sherbourne 1763 FINISHED 2nd build: Triton cross-section COMPLETED 3rd build: La Chaloupe Armée / 42ft Armed Longboat of 1834 by tkay11 – scale 1:36, plans by M. Delacroix COMPLETED 4th build: Allège d’Arles 1833 (Ancre) POB by tkay11 – scale 1:100, plans by F. Fissore COMPLETED Working on La Jacinthe 1:96 POB (ANCRE publications) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stantona Posted June 21, 2013 Share #79 Posted June 21, 2013 I went to Richard, the saw man, today. The results are mixed at this point. He did not think putting the expansion slots in the blade made any difference. I was quite disappointed when hearing that. We had a nice chat then I came home. I decided to give it a try myself since I have a lot more experience with this saw than he has. With some cuts in honduras mahogany and maple I did not get the chatter. I will test more a little later on in the coming days. So for me at this point it appears to have helped a lot. I can post a picture of the modified saw blade if anyone would like to see what the fuss is all about. If it cut the mahogany as clean as it did, I'm sure it would cut bass wood as well. I have some bass wood so will follow through since it appears some people use that wood. It is the opinion of Richard and myself that the problem is with the blade, not the saw. Even though the saw is no Byrnes saw, it does run true and solid. When we find the right blade I will be a bit happier, and as I said, so far it appears to do much better with the expansion slots. One other quick comment. I went back to the Byrnes saw and made more cuts and though not near the same, if fed too fast with three quarter maple, it did flex some. When I say fed too fast, I don't mean shoved through. I'm talking about regular feed rates with common sense (whatever that is any more). But slow does seem to mean better. More later, Alex tkay11 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael mott Posted June 22, 2013 Share #80 Posted June 22, 2013 Alex great to get your input on this issue. Experience counts! I have none with regards to the small machines, so your perspective is really enlightening. Michael Quote Current builds Bristol Pilot Cutter 1:8; Skipjack 19 foot Launch 1:8; Herreshoff Buzzards Bay 14 1:8 Other projects Pilot Cutter 1:500 ; Maria, 1:2 Now just a memory Future model Gill Smith Catboat Pauline 1:8 Finished projects A Bassett Lowke steamship Albertic 1:100 Anything you can imagine is possible, when you put your mind to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stantona Posted June 22, 2013 Share #81 Posted June 22, 2013 Michael, You sure have me fooled. Looking at your build logs I would have put you in the expert class concerning all this 'stuff'. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtaylor Posted June 22, 2013 Share #82 Posted June 22, 2013 Alex, Thanks for the feedback on the test. It may not be a heat issue at all but a materials issue? Quote Mark "The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me Current Build: Past Builds: La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD Triton Cross-Section NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64 Non-Ship Model: On hold, maybe forever: CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l'éperon Posted May 20, 2015 Share #83 Posted May 20, 2015 (edited) Hello to all. I was also concerned by the problem of vibration (wobbling) of the blade with my saw Proxxon FET, which is the same that the Microlux one. I managed to solve a big part of the problem by tightening two small screws which are under the tray of the saw. I don't have vibrations anymore since.By hoping to have helped! Best regards, Xavier Sorry for my bad english ! Edited May 20, 2015 by l'éperon jml1083, Canute and Rustyj 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponto Posted May 20, 2015 Share #84 Posted May 20, 2015 Michael Excellent idea. I posted it in the Important Links section, but not as pinned. I think it would be more appropriate there. I also added a direct link to the PDF: http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/stevec/MLS-Topic-Article/BobSorenson/MillingScaleLumberRev-01.pdf This is an oldie but a goodie as I'm experiencing "all of the above" with my Proxxon FET......alas, I can no longer access the article ---- is it still available please----- JP Quote Built & De-Commissioned: HMS Endeavour (Corel), HMS Unicorn (Corel), Abandoned: HMS Bounty (AL) Completed : Wappen Von Hamburg (Corel), Le Renommee (Euromodel)... on hold Current WIP: Berlin by Corel On Shelf: HMS Bounty (Billings), Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtaylor Posted May 20, 2015 Share #85 Posted May 20, 2015 JP, As I recall, that link ended up with something like this: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/9312-need-advice-with-byrnes-saw/?p=274646 Quote Mark "The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me Current Build: Past Builds: La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD Triton Cross-Section NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64 Non-Ship Model: On hold, maybe forever: CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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