Viking longship by Cathead - Dusek - 1:35 - FINISHED

[mbp521]

Excellent work as always. 
 

Out of curiosity, what is the overall length of the hull. Just trying to get an idea of how big this boat is. I briefly scanned through and couldn’t find anything on it. I was trying to figure it out in relation to the bench supports on your patio deck but figured it would be a lot easier just to ask. 
 

-Brian

[bigpetr]

Dusek states this: Length: 850mm, Width: 370mm, Height: 475mm

[Cathead]

Just measured the hull as roughly 32" long x 4.5" wide in Yankee-speak. The Dusek figures quoted above come out to 33.5" long x 14.5" wide. I don't know why the length is different, but I assume the Dusek width accounts for the yard, which would make the final presentation model a lot wider than just the hull (it's probably not the oars since they show them bundled). She's a beast. I'm actually wondering whether to put up the mast and sail or portray them stowed and furled to save some space.

Edited February 1, 2021 by Cathead

[mbp521]

40 minutes ago, Cathead said:

She's a beast. I'm actually wondering whether to put up the mast and sail or portray them stowed and furled to save some space.

That she definitely is a beast. For some reason I was thinking it was smaller than that. I can see where she would take up a lot of space, especially if the oars were in set and ready to row. But you really want to at least put the mast in place, otherwise you’re going to miss out on all the fun rigging. 😜
 

-Brian

[Cathead]

Started working on the mast foot, which is interesting in that it isn't attached to the deck, but rather runs atop the rowing benches for much of the hull's length. You can see a hint of this in the following Wikipedia image and a better view is in this link to a copyrighted photo:

 

 

The kit's version is pretty simplistic, just two pieces of laminated plywood glued together with little shaping or detail. I decided to follow the reconstruction in making this more visually interesting. I also happened to lose the top piece, so made my own from scrap wood.

 

 

I didn't try to match the prototype exactly, just went for a style I liked. For example, I shaped it to shed water on all sides rather than being planar on top.  In addition, I liked the way the reproduction was arched along the bottom (between benches), so sanded in similar curves, which add nice visual interest:

 

 

Here's the mast foot resting on the benches for testing purposes:

 

 

And here it is painted a first shade of red:

 

 

I'm going to weather this down from pure red, but you get the idea. I like the way it ties in with the cap rails, and the arching on the underside adds a subtle but attractive pattern between the benches.

 

If you look closely at the last two photos, you can also see that I started adding braces connecting the top of the rowing benches with the hull. These are rough and simplistic compared to the real thing (see image linked here as well as the one linked above). I could have spent a lot of time trying to put in flowing curves and ensuring a perfect fit against the hull, but didn't. Part of this is that the hull, and thus the benches it supports, are somewhat irregular, so the end of each bench interacts with the shape of the clinkered planks differently, meaning that each brace would have to be independently carved to match its exact location at a rather small scale. Instead, I mass-manufactured simple triangle shapes and glued them in with some generic backing. They look great with a bit of distance, matching the rest of the model. I'm honestly a bit burned out on this project and ready to move on. So my standard is to improve on the kit but not go crazy for perfection or full accuracy. There are so many things I'd do differently if I were to do this kit again, but at this point am constrained by previous choices and errors so am just going for "looks cool to laypeople while not being totally offensive to experts". When I started this in July I did NOT expect it to be anywhere near as long or involved a project as it's turned out to be.

 

I've done one side of these braces, so now need to do the 30 on the other side. Then I'll glue in the mast foot and decide what's next. Probably shaping the mast. 

 

Almost forgot, I've decided not to rivet the hull. Just don't have the interest or patience and am not convinced I can do it well enough to justify adding ~4000 more pieces to this kit. Most people won't know the difference and I'm putting some of that time into details that I think are more visually important (like all these braces along the interior hull, the improved mast foot, and so on). Sorry to the folks who were hoping I'd take the plunge. I'm open to it in a future project that's of higher overall quality. 

 

Thanks for sticking with me, and for all the encouragement.

[Louie da fly]

That's looking very good, Eric. We all have to make decisions on how far to take things, often constrained by things (often mistakes) that have occurred previously. I think the decisions you're making are totally spot-on. The braces (knees?) look very good and add to the verisimiltude (love that word!) of the model.

 

The mast step is very interesting - one would have thought that they'd have made it as rigidly attached to the hull as possible. Instead they attached it to the thwarts! However, thinking about it, the forces involved would be spread over the whole length of the long mast-step assembly, so the force on any one thwart would have been quite small.

 

This is reinforced by the frail connections of mast-steps on several Byzantine ships found in the Yenikapi dig in Istanbul - in some cases it seems to have been just resting on the keel!

 

The rivets - well they might add to the look, but they're a very small item which may not even be very visible at any sort of distance. I can't see anybody getting too upset about leaving them off. In fact, I think many people who add treenails to their models (and obvious nails on coppering) are putting something there that would not be seen on the real thing.

 

Overall, this is a model to be proud of. Keep up the good work.

 

Steven

[Balclutha75]

Nice work Eric. You have given me some inspiration for my much smaller and rougher kit. Thanks.

 

I also decided rivets were not worth the effort, but might reconsider at some point. I'd only need about 200 if I did along the frames only, and maybe 800 if I did all of the hull. Less than 1/4 of what you need. They will be largely invisible when the model is on display.

[Cathead]

Does anyone have a good suggestion for understanding the rigging layout of a Viking ship? Unsurprisingly, the kit instructions are not only rather simplistic, but also don't seem to match the practices used on the Skuldelev reproduction. For example, on the standing rigging for the mast, the kit tells you to tie loops through the side of the hull (see photo below and image from the Dusek website below), while the reproduction seems to loop these around the rowing benches (see image linked here ).

 

 

One resource I've found shows a different way to connect standard rigging to the hull (see image here) by running a short loop through a single hole and using a short rod to hold it in place. I like the look of this but am open to other suggestions.

 

I also cannot figure out the rope pattern used on the L-shaped pieces (no idea what they're called in this context) that replace the deadeyes used in more modern sailing vessels (see image linked here). The instructions are also vague as to how this actually works, either in the model context or in real life. 

 

Any suggestions? I really want to understand how this is supposed to work and what a reasonably accurate practice would be. I'm pretty annoyed at myself that I followed the instructions and drilled holes in the hull already before doing research to realize (of course) that there might be other, more accurate practices. I don't know why I even look at the instructions at this point. 

 

Also, here's a better lengthwise view of the model that really shows how much visual interest is created by adding the bench supports and two layers of triangular braces along the hull (one along the deck and one atop the benches).

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Louie da fly]

As far as I know nobody really knows how the rigging on Viking ships worked. There have been rigging elements (such as L-shaped pieces) found but as far as I know the ropes had long since perished. I think there's a lot of educated guesswork in any modern reconstructions.

 

Others might know more, but perhaps if you get in touch with the Viking Ship Museum at Roskilde they'd be able to give you what information is available and what they based their reconstructions on. I'd be more likely to trust their information than what the kit manufacturer says - they have access to all the best evidence.

 

Steven 

[mbp521]

Eric,

 

Great job on the mast step. Very interesting on its placement. I would have never guessed that the builders would have chose the bench tops as a strategic place to mount it, but those guys were a master of their craft and knew what they were doing and from an engineering perspective it makes sense. 
 

As for the rigging, I am way out of my element on this one. My guess is that it would have been somewhat simplistic yet functional and sturdy given that there was only one sail (a rather large one) to deal with. I would think that it would be rigged where it could be set up and stowed with the minimal amount of effort so they could focus more time and effort on their conquests. 
 

I am just slightly disappointed that you aren’t going with the rivets, but totally understand the reason. Accuracy is one thing but there comes a time where you have to draw the line, do I build it the way I want to and get it finished, or do start something that will put me off of the model and shelve it. This unfortunately is what happened with my USS Constellation build. I wanted to portray it as accurate as possible, but the more I researched it the more faults I found with the kit until I finally gave up and now use it as a dust collector. I may dust it off one day and finish it, but right now I am having too much fun in the steam boat era. 
 

Overall she’s looking great. This has been a very interesting build and good info on an era I know nothing about. Keep those updates coming, I always look forward to them.  
 

-Brian

[bigpetr]

Hi Eric, Saga Oseberg replica has it like this:

[Cathead]

Long gap in posting but I've been rather busy with other things, including developing a talk on steamboat design along the Missouri River, which you can watch online Tuesday March 9 (see link for details). This was supposed to be in April but the March speaker for this series canceled and I agreed to move it up a month. 

 

I also realized that I needed to make a final decision on how to handle the display stand, as I'm about to place the mast in the vessel and after that won't be able to turn it over nearly as easily. The kit-supplied stand doesn't fit the hull perfectly, as my version ended up somewhat deformed from the theoretical version the kit expects, but it's good enough and I don't feel like trying to make a new version that fits the clinker planking perfectly.

 

However, it's too simplistic and has very few contact points. So after some thought, I came up with the idea of adding a few extra pieces of wood to better clamp and stabilize the keel, and to do this in an artistic way. I cut some thin pieces of cherry off a larger block (harvested here on-farm) and cut them into half-pieces representing a Thor's hammer design. I then clamped these on either side of the kit stand such that they'd grab the keel. Here's a test-fit:

 

 

I then painted the stand black so it'd fade into shadow, and oiled the cherry to bring out its color. I think it looks cool:

 

 

I might also hang some shields along the stand between the two hammers, for more visual interest.

 

And here's another view of the current hull:

 

 

[mbp521]

Eric,

 

Love the stand! 
 

Thor is one of my favorite heroes from mythology (and Avengers). Adding the shields between Mjolnir would be an added bonus. It would definitely tie the stand to the boat. 
 

-Brian

[Cathead]

Making the mast:

 

The kit plans give a clear drawing for how to turn the mast, which I followed. I used the poor-man's lathe method by chucking a dowel in my hand drill and using files and sandpaper to taper it down. Here you see the shortened top of the mast, where the stays are meant to loop over. Once I was happy, I cut off the chucked part of  the dowel.

 

 

After further smoothing and staining, I got this:

 

 

And here's a test-fit on the ship:

 

[Cathead]

Starting rigging:

 

I  followed the instructions in setting up the rigging. This, as in most instances, turned out to be a mistake.

 

The shrouds and stays are tensioned with an L-shaped piece that functions as a primitive deadeye. It took me a while to figure out how this actually worked, but I think I understand it now. I have no idea what this is actually called, so I'm referring to it as an L-deadeye. Take a look at the instructions:

 

 

A loop of rope attaches to either the hull (as here) or benches (as in the image shared by bigpetr in a previous post). The shroud coming down from the mast is tied to the L-deadeye. When the latter's long end is slipped through the loop, then rotated upright, it creates leverage that tightens the shroud. This tension is held by attaching the upper long end of the L-deadeye to the parallel shroud, as it otherwise wants to rotate back down again (releasing tension). I don't know if that written explanation is clear, but that's how it seems to me.

 

So far, so good. I followed the instructions in tying loops (five to a side, one for each shroud) through holes in the hull, then seized loops in one end of 10 shrouds (to go over the mast):

 

 

 

However, when it came to connecting these using the L-deadeyes, I really struggled. I just couldn't get any consistent tension, and the pieces were so small that rope kept slipping off them and they just flopped around. So I decided to glue the L-deadeyes to the lower loops, making it easier to then loop the shrouds around them and pull for tension:

 

 

This turned out to be a bad idea. Once I tried to make the connection, the L-deadeyes inevitably turned out to be in the wrong place along the loop, leaving one side of the loop too taut and the other floppy. Plus, it was maddening trying to get the thicker shroud tied onto the tiny L-deadeye in a way that actually held tension, as everything just kept flopping around, and all of this had to be done in place on the model. I also couldn't adjust tension as more shrouds were added. It just didn't work for me. So I undid my work, cut the L-deadeyes off the lower loops, and approached this from the opposite direction.

 

I attached the L-deadeyes to the lower end of the shrouds, which made it really easy to get a nice tight knot on that little piece, and to do the fussy little lashing that keeps the long end tight against the shroud (another thing I found maddening originally):

 

 

 

On the reproduction, I believe the latter connection is actually made by some kind of metal hoop that easily slides on and off as needed for shroud tension adjustment. But the kit doesn't provide that and just tells you to tie this on. So I used some leftover black rope from Syren to mimic a hoop like that. I think it came out pretty well.

 

The goal here is to make the lower loops (attaching the L-deadeyes to the hull) the final step, because it'll be easier to pull tension on those as a simple loop through the already-stabilized L-deadeye. Tests confirm that this is much more effective, though I haven't actually done it for good yet. That's because of the next problem I encountered, to which I'll dedicate a separate post.

 

[Cathead]

Correcting the mast:

 

At this point I encountered yet another problem with the kit instructions. Remember the photos I shared above, clearly showing the plans indicating how much of the mast-top to narrow? This part has to accommodate 10 shrouds (five per side) and 2 stays (fore and aft) using the thickest rope provided in the kit. Well, I decided to do a test-fit, and sure enough, it's not nearly enough room for 12 loops. They pile up past the top of the mast (the photo below isn't even all of them):

 

 

Inner scream. I'd already glued the mast in place. So I had to carefully crack it loose and pull it out again. I couldn't chuck it back in my drill because I'd already cut off the extra, and didn't want to make marks on the lower mast. So I used a razor saw to carefully cut a notch around the circumference, as far below the original narrowness as I dared go (without hitting the hole through the mast), then used a sharp knife to carve away the excess wood. The notch kept me from cutting too far down:

 

 

Once this was done, I had shiny fresh wood to cover up. I rubbed it with a mix of pastels to roughly match the original stain, which seems good enough as this will be covered by rope:

 

 

Then I glued the mast back in place. 

 

So that's where things stand. The next step is to start trying to attach shrouds again, working out the best way to tension those lower loops and tie them down temporarily until everything is tensioned the way I want it. I at least think I'm on the right track this time. But I really didn't need this frustration with instructions and plans that once again led me astray and wasted a bunch of time.

[Balclutha75]

As you know I'm new to this hobby, but I'll concur having to unglue is not one of the more enjoyable things to be done! I've found it a necessary skill. 😁 Looks like you have it in hand.

 

27 minutes ago, Cathead said:

I have no idea what this is actually called, so I'm referring to it as an L-deadeye

 

Those pictures from that Osprey book have a legend that I did not send you when I sent the other stuff. There, they call it a "shroud-pin or vantnale". A search on that turn up a Wiki page:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Saga_Oseberg_Details_shroud-pins_or_vantnales_to_secure_the_shrouds_to_the_hull,_gunwale,_oarholes,_knees,_deck_etc_Viking_ship_replica_2012_Tønsberg_harbour_Norway_2019-08-16_04305.jpg

 

 

Edited March 7, 2021 by Balclutha75

[Cathead]

Great, thanks for the proper terminology! I also notice that the vantnales in those photos have knobby ends to help hold the ropes in place. That's quite sensible, but doesn't seem to be the case on the Skuldelev 2 reproduction.

[mbp521]

Eric,

 

Good recovery on the masthead. If you wouldn’t have shown us the error in the plan measurements I’d have never know you had to go back and redo it. 
 

I’m no expert in the matter but it seems the primitive technique used by the Vikings to secure the shrouds to the hull with the L-deadeye was to make easier to setup and take down of the mast, compared to more modern masted ships which used a more complex setup to secure the masts. 
 

Given your troubles with the setup on this model it seems that the more complex versions are easier to build than the easy ones. I do anxiously await to see your solution to this though. 
 

-Brian

[Cathead]

Some nice progress! All the standing rigging is in place. This is still loose; I intentionally set it up so that I could tighten everything later on, to be sure that it all balances well. Pretty happy with this so far. Really starting to look like something.

 

 

Given that, I had to figure out where the final tightening would happen. In theory it would happen on the thicker shroud running from the vantnale to the masthead. But I decided that was too tricky to get right. So, on the thinner lines that connect the vantnale to the hull, I tied a slipknot that allows one end of the loop to be tugged on, drawing the loop as tight as desired. This hides nicely in plain view as there has to be some kind of knot there anyway to finish off the loop, and I'll snug them right down along the inside of the hull.

 

I realize that's rather dense to read. Maybe these photos help? Again, I can tug on one end of the thinner line to tighten the whole thing. 

 

 

 

Do you notice the steady upward progression of  the vantnales above the hull as they proceed aft? That's because I was silly and measured all of the pre-made shrouds to be the same length, not accounting for the stacking along the top of the mainmast, so they gradually have to rise. Oops. Shouldn't matter too much, I doubt the real thing was nice and symmetrical. 

 

I followed the same method for the fore and aft stays:

 

 

And here's what all ten shrouds and the two stays look like loosely piled up on the masthead. Definitely needed to extend that part of the mast, as discussed previously. Yes, these will compact down a bit when I tighten them, but still.

 

 

I also started experimenting with shield design. The kit comes with 60 laser-cut discs, into which I plan to file gentle plank borders for realism. Then it's a matter of deciding what color pattern to use on the shield fronts. I did a bunch of research on various sites, and decided that I really like the four-spiral design. So here are five test versions of this, using different combinations of the red-yellow-black scheme the ship uses, tested on a scrap piece of pre-scribed wood. The left-most gray shield is one of the actual kit shields that I test-scribed but haven't colored.

 

 

 

The coloration here is a combination of paint, marker, and colored pencil. I'd love some feedback on which designs you like/dislike, or new suggestions for combining aspects of them. I could also, in theory, use two versions and intersperse them.

 

For reference, I don't plan to hang these along the sides. I'm going to stack them within the hull and hang some along the display base.

 

Thanks in advance for opinions and ideas.

[James H]

Real nice and I like those shield patterns and adding the plank simulation.

 

I like this one:

[End Of The Line]

This build is looking fantastic.  Thanks for going through your decision making process on the rigging. This board is so helpful to those of us following behind.

[Cathead]

I ran this set of options past Mrs. Cathead, who (like James H and I) really liked the red shield with black swirls and gold edging. However, she also pointed out that the combination of color scheme and shape looked uncomfortably Nazi to her, and now I can't unsee that. So I did some thinking, and realized that if I flared the black swirls, it'd really cut down on the pseudo-swastika effect. See what you think:

 

 

I also made another draft of the reverse-color version because I'm thinking about alternating these rather than making everything the same. If so, I need to get a red pen, though, the red colored pencil isn't vibrant enough to stand with the other ink-based colors.

 

Thoughts on this updated version? I could even do a series of three or four different color variations on the same theme (like black shield with red swirls and gold edging). 

[J11]

Outstanding progress, she's a beauty!

 

[Chuck Seiler]

Here is one from Queen Lagertha from the TV show VIKINGS.

[Louie da fly]

Unfortunately, nothing in the Vikings TV show bears any relationship to what Vikings ate/wore/did/carried/used. And most of the "Viking Shield Designs" that can be found on-line use a fair bit of imagination (i.e. they're made up) or extrapolate from Viking decorations in other contexts (i.e. they're made up).

 

What is known about patterns on Viking shields appears here: http://members.ozemail.com.au/~chrisandpeter/shield/shield.html

 

The ones you're making look good, but as there seems to be no evidence of standardization in shield decoration, you could mix and match patterns and colour combinations as much as you like within the colours available at the time - https://sciencenordic.com/denmark-history-society--culture/how-to-decorate-like-a-viking/1455997 .

 

Steven

[Cathead]

I agree, while that shield is pretty, I'm not basing any decisions on what TV producers do (nothing personal Chuck, I very much appreciate your interest). I was drawing from the shield designs given here and have been consulting Steven's link as well (given previously) for things like board width and pattern.

 

I'm having way too much fun thinking about this, and last night (after I'd turned the computer off) went ahead and drew out all six color combinations using all colored pencils on another piece of wood:

 

 

I actually kind of like the more muted, faded effect of the all-pencil version as opposed to the more vibrant paint/pen versions. They fit the weathered, muted artistic style of the vessel. And they're pretty easy to do. Also, thanks Steven for that great link on Viking colors! Got that bookmarked for sure now.

 

So the question remains, if updated: which 1–3 designs look most appealing and would blend well together? I'll make my own decision but am legitimately interested in what other eyes see.

[mbp521]

Eric,

 

I’m liking the the later versions with the more muted colors and weathering.
 

Just for curiosity (and conversation sake), and since this is a bit out of my element, were the symbols and colors on the shields used to represent a certain clan much like the tartan plaids of the Scottish kilts, or were they just representative of each individuals personal preference? If they were the latter, then you could use several different designs and colors on them (not to create more work for you) just food for though.
 

The site Steven posted shows that The Vikings were believers in that colors represented certain things, and each shield owner could have put his/her personal touches on theirs to tell their own story. Just random thoughts. 
 

-Brian

[Cathead]

Brian, I can't fully answer that. My sense is that shield symbology could represent allegiance  (such as to your jarl or employer) but I'm not sure to what extent it could represent family lineage or personal identity. Here, I like the idea of a consistent theme related to the vessel's owner, especially given that this is an unusually powerful and expensive vessel. And  artistically, I think a consistent theme will look better even if a bunch of individual  shields could  be accurate. For example, some green/grey shields would look cool on their own, but might clash with the  consistent color-theme presentation of the model, and the average viewer would be more likely to notice the  clash than to recognize  that it's an accurate nod to Viking individualism. 

 

I certainly contradict myself here as I've painted my Viking figures as distinct individuals, though that's partly because they came with different designs  cast on their shields, so I had little choice.

 

I'm sure  Steven could help inform both of  us on this matter, and hope he does!

[md1400cs]

10 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

Unfortunately, nothing in the Vikings TV show bears any relationship to what Vikings ate/wore/did/carried/used. And most of the "Viking Shield Designs" that can be found on-line use a fair bit of imagination (i.e. they're made up) or extrapolate from Viking decorations in other contexts (i.e. they're made up).

 

What is known about patterns on Viking shields appears here: http://members.ozemail.com.au/~chrisandpeter/shield/shield.html

 

The ones you're making look good, but as there seems to be no evidence of standardization in shield decoration, you could mix and match patterns and colour combinations as much as you like within the colours available at the time - https://sciencenordic.com/denmark-history-society--culture/how-to-decorate-like-a-viking/1455997 .

 

Steven

Steven,

 

Hmmmm??

 

Michael Hirst who spent years studying and making sure that the series was as close to their world as possible, would take great exception at your post.

 

https://www.amazon.com/World-Vikings-Justin-Pollard/dp/1452145458/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=micheal+hirst+the+vikings&qid=1615738793&s=books&sr=1-1-spell