HMS Winchelsea 1764 by tenderfoot

[tenderfoot]

18 hours ago, FrankWouts said:

Rigging? I thought Winnie was going to be a contemporary model when finished?

Or do we have the possibility to take it further with masts and rigging if one wishes to do so?

But not under guidance of Chuck and other experienced builders I guess?

I have never done a model of this sort and although I understand there isn’t any rigging for masts, sails, and the like, just wasn’t sure if it was used elsewhere such as for railings, anchors, etc. I guess, as with all builds, one can choose their own path forward. However, I think I’m sticking to the Chuck Plan. At least until I get much, much better at this and understand a lot more than I do now.

[Chuck]

1 hour ago, tenderfoot said:

I guess, as with all builds, one can choose their own path forward.

That is correct.

[tenderfoot]

Finally, back in the saddle. Spent the morning getting the bolts on the keel in place. Went with Chuck's suggestion and used 15 pound, black monofilament. Prior to this I didn't even know what that was...I don't fish. But now I am the proud owner of a couple hundred yards of the stuff...likely a lifetime supply for me. The process was pretty simple, but still took some time. Wanted to be sure I placed things properly and that the bolts looked aligned. Happy with the results and will definitely use this method in the future.

 

Tomorrow I will begin getting my build board together and then on to the bulkheads.

 

Edited April 25, 2021 by tenderfoot

[tenderfoot]

This took me about 3 weeks longer than planned, but eventually got my build board together. The delay wasn't due to anything other than lack of time to get at this. For a while wasn't sure what to use for the straight edges along the keel. I still lack some basic equipment such as a small saw table and didn't want to just use any old straight piece of wood as it could warp over time. However, while removing the bulkheads from the laser cut ply I realized I had my straight edges ready made. Once I had the bulkheads removed I went ahead and ripped down a couple edges. To ensure I had a perfectly straight alignment, once I verified the edge of my wood was perfect, I screwed the entire length onto the board. Then I did the same to the other side of the keel before removing the keel from the board. After removing the keel I then went ahead and cut out the center section so the brace could fit. In the end, a really straight edge and fairly easily done.

 

I used the composite material shelves that are available for around $10. I have found these to remain nice and flat unless some extreme environmental variables come into play (i.e. left in rain). This build will likely take me a year or so before I am ready to remove from the board, so hope is holds up. Anyone have ideas on better material to use?

 

[Ron Burns]

1 hour ago, tenderfoot said:

This build will likely take me a year or so before I am ready to remove from the board, so hope is holds up. Anyone have ideas on better material to use?

It is exactly what I used for my build board and it has held up really well so far. You can't beat them for being factory straight and flat. I'm at the point (finally) where I have flipped her over and have Winnie resting on some great chunks of pink construction styrofoam. I used the same stuff after I had all of the bulkheads glued into place in order to fair the girl. Next stop will be removing those wonderful support brackets and replacing them with a cradle.

Nice job so far! Good call on using the ply factory edges as your straight edge

 

Ron

[tenderfoot]

43 minutes ago, Ron Burns said:

It is exactly what I used for my build board and it has held up really well so far. You can't beat them for being factory straight and flat. 

Thanks Ron. Big relief for me and nice to know I can move on without worry.

 

I have some spare pink insulation foam in the garage. Will use your idea on that when the time comes...appreciate that tip as well.

[tenderfoot]

Freed  all the bulkheads and got them fitting nicely. Mind you, only dry fit at this point in time. Now I need to run off to the hardware store and pick up a few L-Brackets for the bulkheads at each end. Then I will start to permanently glue things in place. I figure it will take me a few days to glue these as I will likely only get 4 to 6 done per day.

 

I must say, looking at this thing now I finally get a true feeling of the size of it. It is quite large.

 

 

[Chuck]

Nice progress....

[svein erik]

She looks grait..... nice start and enjoy the build...

cant wait to build her my self,

Chuck have make an outstanding model for us to build and have fun with it😊

 

svein.e

[FrankWouts]

On 5/15/2021 at 8:07 PM, tenderfoot said:

Freed  all the bulkheads and got them fitting nicely. Mind you, only dry fit at this point in time. Now I need to run off to the hardware store and pick up a few L-Brackets for the bulkheads at each end. Then I will start to permanently glue things in place. I figure it will take me a few days to glue these as I will likely only get 4 to 6 done per day.

 

I must say, looking at this thing now I finally get a true feeling of the size of it. It is quite large.

 

 

Looking really good and sharp to my eye!

Chuck’s laser cut frame and bulkheads  fit really well, just be sure to glue them tight and that the glue is on every inch where the bulkhead makes contact to the frame and that they’re as square to the keel and frame as you can. Use small steel squares and clamps to keep them in a 90 degree angle to the frame. Also check if they don’t overlap the rabbit line/opening just above the keel, but that they touch the upper line of the rabbit line exactly, thus keeping it fully open, then you should be okay.

Later, as your wrote your concern on fairing the hull in my build log on fairing, just go slow and imagine the run of the planking and its curved surface already when you’re sanding, how it will bend, check if all is still in line with the angle of sanded surfaces of other frames. It should fluently when you look over it with one eye and the other closed. Also, all the laser char should be sanded away. When there’s still a small line of laser char on the bulkheads just sanded, you’re not finished sanding yet while then the planking will not be glued to the maximum amount of surface on the faired bulkhead as when you sand some more till the small remaining line of char is gone. When not using laser cut bulkheads with blackbrown laser char edges, but when e.g. you scroll sawed the bulkheads yourself, you could paint the edges of the bulkheads e.g. red to help you in the same way. At the stem/bow, you can follow not only the line or curve of the rabbit line, but also the line over the frames when holding a double folded sanding paper sanding in fluent lines and moves along these lines and while at the same time checking, looking and imagining the form of the ship.  When you sand these on and off and vice versa, you should get a sharp line forward like for a fregat and also get that twist from a dead to a sharp angle from top to bottom of the bow/stem. This is how I do it, not sure if that’s the best method, but I get there this way I think. Hope this helps you.

[tenderfoot]

Thank you Frank for the detailed reply. I have taken it to heart and am making better progress on fairing the bow of this build than I have on past builds. It is a slow go as many have mentioned. Good thing I really enjoy sanding - the smell, the feel, the motion - it is all very meditative for me. Thankfully I can do this for hours without pain especially as I find it relaxing.

 

At the rate I am going I figure another 20 hours or so to complete fairing the hull. However, before I continue on I do have a question for others in this forum. Obviously, fairing the lower portions of the hull require one to remove it from the build board. I am hesitant to do this as the top bits of the bulkheads are very fragile. I did reinforce them with clips as instructed by Chuck, but in tandem with this is my limited work space which requires a bit of extra shuffling around, especially for a ship this size. Has anyone faired the top portion of the hull, added the port frames, and then turned the ship over to work the lower half of the hull? I thought this would provide some nice stability for the fragile parts of the bulkheads. However, if the overall experience has been that the bulkheads are fairly solid with the clips then I will continue with fairing the entire hull.

[FrankWouts]

I just place two small sigar boxes on my table, turn Winnie upside down and make sure the sturdy part of the top of the bulkheads where the decks will be on later, are on those sigar boxes.
This way, the fragile and with clips reinforced tops of the bulkheads are free from my table, on which I place also newspapers for some soft protection.

But I see no reason for not fairing the lower half of the ship’s hull later like you mention, other than not following Chucks instructions to the letter.

Maybe others here?

Edited June 4, 2021 by FrankWouts
little typo's...

[scrubbyj427]

I think you could get away with adding the gun port framing prior to hull fairing to add some rigidity to the hull. You will have to fair all the frames anyway. I just held the hull in my lap with a towel when I faired it. I did not add the clips to the tops of the frames which I should have, but I made it fine without breaking one. It wasn’t until later in the build that i snapped one off. Just be careful and go slow.

[FrankWouts]

On 6/4/2021 at 6:39 PM, scrubbyj427 said:

I think you could get away with adding the gun port framing prior to hull fairing to add some rigidity to the hull. You will have to fair all the frames anyway. I just held the hull in my lap with a towel when I faired it. I did not add the clips to the tops of the frames which I should have, but I made it fine without breaking one. It wasn’t until later in the build that i snapped one off. Just be careful and go slow.

But isn't it more difficult to virtually impossible to fasten the batten to check for a fluent line for the gun ports without faired bulkheads?

[scrubbyj427]

On 6/6/2021 at 6:53 AM, FrankWouts said:

But isn't it more difficult to virtually impossible to fasten the batten to check for a fluent line for the gun ports without faired bulkheads?

Good point Frank, perhaps just fair down to or below that line, install frames and then continue on fairing. At least then your hull is much more ridged.

[tenderfoot]

Thank you Frank and scrubbyj427 for your thoughtful input and excellent points. I also have spent a lot of time reading through as many other Winnie build logs as I could and actually found that Stuntflyer took an approach similar too, if not exactly the same as described by scrubbyj427 - BTW, if you haven't perused Stuntflyer's build you should do so...it is absolutely amazing!

 

Granted, I have nowhere near the experience nor excellence in this as Stuntflyer, but I shall try that approach regardless as it does address my concern with breaking the top pieces due to my limited build space and need to constantly move the thing around as I work on it. And I will definitely post the results here soon as I plan to take on this effort through the week.

 

[tenderfoot]

All right, so I did a complete 180 on my decision regarding fairing the hull. At the beginning of this build I made the statement that I would adhere to the directions as provided by Chuck to ensure a quality end result. Yet here I was just a few short steps into it and thinking I knew a better way, at least for my use case. Well, thanks to some excellent input from others on this forum I have once again confirmed my dedication to following Chuck's directions.

 

That said, I continued on with fairing the hull as directed and moved down to the lower portions of the bulkheads. I started with the port side and finished that. Now it is on to the starboard side. I did encounter one issue. It seems that humidity is something I should have taken into consideration when creating my build board. When I initially built it, and set the ship in place, it was still fairly cold and dry outside. Since then, it has turned to extremely hot and humid. The end result, when I went to remove the ship from the build board it was stuck tight. So much so that the keel broke free when I did finally get it to release. Mind you, a few weeks ago the ship slid in and out of the build board with ease. Lesson learned.

 

Thankfully, it was a very easy fix and I was back onto fairing the hull. All went well on the port side and I only have one bullhead that needs just the slightest bit of shimming. You can see this in the pic below with the third bulkhead from the stern. I thought maybe I had installed this incorrectly, however, a quick check of the opposing side and it needs a bit of shimming as well...so all good.

 

This week I will continue with fairing the starboard side and be done with it. Need to take a few days break to allow my fingers to recover. At one point my thumb started cramping. Maybe one day there will be a hull-fairing service out there - just send your hull and get it back perfectly faired. Until then, I guess my fingers are going to get excellent work outs

[tenderfoot]

Well, what I originally thought would be about a two week break from working on this build turned into two months instead. Now that I have caught up on other things I was finally able to get back to this the past couple weeks and finally finished fairing the hull. While working on the hull I constantly checked to ensure a plank would lay along the bulkheads very nicely. I did this over and over and over. I did it from all directions. I have only built a couple ships to date and this is by far the longest and most detail minded I have ever been on this part of the build. My past efforts, although they turned out okay, definitely highlighted how critical it is to get the fairing as precise as possible. I am not yet certain that I have it exactly as it should be, but I can say with confidence that I did my best with my current skill set.

 

Midship wasn't too difficult. In fact, the stern on this build was not that bad either. It is the bow that concerned me. I was worried I would not get the proper curve in the bow and end up with strange bends and dips in the planking. Or, that I would overwork the bow and end up with more of a point at the front instead of a nice curve. To help with this, I used the laser cut window sill pieces - the ones that were designed for the first space between the stem pieces and the first bulkhead. I would hold the piece in place to check that the curve was coming along properly and would also try laying a plank along the curve. Between the two I thing I may have finally faired the bow area on a ship properly. Guess I will find out soon enough.

 

 

I also had the time to begin installing the sills. I followed the provided advice and used some spare wood I had from another build to lay along the hull. I temporarily tacked these in place with a few copper nails and adjusted as needed until I had a really nice curve from bow to stern. While the temporary battens were in place I check that the tops of them were level between the port and starboard side at each bulkhead. This, along with simply checking with my eyes, helped to ensure both sides were nearly a mirror of each other. Finally, I did a check at the bow to ensure the battens lined up nearly perfectly and then did the same at the stern. And then I marked each bulkhead with a pencil.

 

Installing the sills is going about as smooth as I could hope for, so all that extra effort to get the lines marked was well worth it. Learning a lot on this build already! The port side lower sills are nearly complete and I will tackle the starboard side over the next couple days.

 

[tenderfoot]

Installed the rest of the sills and faired them down. Really happy with how this is looking. I keep eyeballing things from all different directions to see how the curves flow and how things align and so far, so good.

 

However, I did notice this...

Not sure when it happened, or how. But it is heartbreaking and I am not sure what to do about it short of taking the stem apart and creating a new piece. Open to any suggestions.

[tenderfoot]

While fairing the port sills I did notice that there was one vertical board that was completely botched. It's not like this was the first one I did so I was simply needing some practice. It's not like this was the last one I did so I was simply getting tired. No! This was done roughly half-way through the process so I simply botched it. How I didn't notice this throws me. As I travel the sides of the ship I am happy over and over again with how well the port framing turned out. Then I hit the one sad one. Thankfully, it was a really easy thing to replace and improve the fit.

[tenderfoot]

Started working on the stern frames and I am struggling a bit. After checking the drawings I am still uncertain of the final shape. On the plans I find a straight on view of the stern from the stern which is easy enough to understand the X, Y alignment of the frames. However, I have not found a top view that shows how the frames align in the Z dimension. I do see drawings of the deck that show a slight bow at the stern, but I am not certain that this bow is reflected in the very stern of the stern frames or if the bow is only at the deck level and by the time you get to the outboard side of the stern frames they are all on the same plane.

 

If it is slightly bowed as I suspect it is, is the bow the same as the end of the decking in the drawings? Also, any additional suggestions/techniques on how to get these frames as right as possible? Really want to get this part right on the first go.

[Gregory]

7 hours ago, tenderfoot said:

Not sure when it happened, or how. But it is heartbreaking and I am not sure what to do about it short of taking the stem apart and creating a new piece. Open to any suggestions.

I think you could soften it up a bit by sanding.  It shouldn't detract that much from an otherwise great model.

 

If you Can't live with it, you'll have to do it over.

 

For your stern frames..  Take a good look at Chuck's prototype build in the early stages..

 

[tenderfoot]

On 9/15/2021 at 7:32 PM, Gregory said:

For your stern frames..  Take a good look at Chuck's prototype build in the early stages..

Thanks Gregory. I followed your advice and once again reviewed Chuck's build; however, I am still coming up blank. Read through it a few times and check the photos carefully and I am not finding the answer. In fact, when viewing the photos, the perspective makes it look like the stern frames are in a perfectly straight line from port to starboard, and from other perspectives it looks like there is a slight curve from port to starboard.

 

I really do want to get this right and at the same time I am very aware that I tend to over think things. But Chuck does mention how absolutely critical it is to get these stern frames as near perfect as possible to prevent serious problems later on. Possibly, I am not explaining my question just right or also possible the answer is right in front of me and I am not seeing it. To help me better explain what I am asking I figured a quick drawing would help. The drawing below is a bird's eye view of the stern and shows the 6 stern frames. From this perspective, would the frames have a slight curve in their placement? Or are they perfectly straight across? And if they do have a slight curve in their placement am I correct in assuming that curve is the same as the stern-most area of the decking as illustrated in the drawing provided with the build?

 

[Gregory]

I'm pretty sure Chuck has mentioned the slight arch when commenting on other builds.  You might pop him a message..  He is usually quick to respond.

 

The arch might be achieved by fairing rather than the placement of the posts..  I'll look at some other logs and see if I can be of further help..

Edited September 17, 2021 by Gregory

[Gregory]

Here is a discussion between FrankWouts and Chuck about the curve of the transom..  It might be of some help..

 

 

[scrubbyj427]

There should definitely be a slight arch to the stern frames. Hope this pic is helpful.

 

JJ

[tenderfoot]

1 hour ago, Gregory said:

Here is a discussion between FrankWouts and Chuck about the curve of the transom..  It might be of some help..

This is exactly what I was looking for! Thank you so much.

[tenderfoot]

1 hour ago, scrubbyj427 said:

There should definitely be a slight arch to the stern frames. Hope this pic is helpful.

Yes, very helpful. Thank you!

 

And thanks to everyone on this forum! What an excellent group of people to be associated with.

[tenderfoot]

For me, this was a difficult part of the framing to get done properly. However, with the help of everyone here and a whole lot of patience I think I have it it a pretty good state. The most difficult part was getting the frames to line up properly. As soon as I would have a couple where I want them, a very slight movement of my hand whilst getting the next frame in place and I would find myself starting over again. Eventually I ended up tacking the frames in place similar to what framing carpenters do with new house framing. Once I had the six frames where I needed them, and the spacers held in place without any glue, I applied some glue and let it dry thoroughly. 

 

 

The lower sills weren't much of a chore and went in place fairly easily. The parts above the window openings were a bit more difficult. However, another exercise in patience and a whole lot of sand, test-fit, sand, test-fit and they eventually fit into place quite nicely. I also used the piece supplied by Chuck to ensure that the openings in these top pieces lined up as perfectly as I could get them.

 

 

Finally, more sanding! Good thing I really enjoy sanding because there is a lot of it on this build. And thankfully, since fairing the hull and through this bit the weather has been incredibly nice so I am able to sand outside. Makes the wife much happier which makes me a whole lot happier.

 

 

I have to admit that I am still a bit intimidated by this build. I need to get this feeling out of my head and just go with the flow sometimes. Next up is the framing on the sides at the stern...I will practice my not-intimated approach on those.