Drafting

[Roger Pellett]

Hank,  

Admiral Rickover used to insist that the “science” of nuclear power was not difficult.  What was Hard was the engineering and that the success of the technology would be determined by the quality of the engineering.  He, therefore, insisted that his plants be easy to operate and to the maximum extent possible maintainable by forces afloat.

 

These were lessons that the civilian nuclear power industry failed to learn to their peril.

 

 

Edited December 27, 2020 by Roger Pellett

[mangulator63]

2 hours ago, Hank said:

Tim,

To answer your question, "Yes!" - I reported aboard 03 Sept. 68 a few days before NEW JERSEY left Long Beach, CA for her one and only WestPac cruise 1968-69. We spent 6 months on/off the gun line and then an extra 2 weeks lurking in the Sea of Japan after NK shot down a USAF EC-121.  I have been a member of their veterans group since 1990. I got you beat on the Tamiya 1/350 scale models - that kit first hit the market as a Life-Like kit (and in my opinion was a better kit in many ways - I've had/built 2 of them). I've built the Tamiya kits as well, but sold those in progress as I had no further interest in them. I got involved in the 1/200 scale Trumpeter MISSOURI kit in 2006 and spent 6 years converting it to USS NEW JERSEY 67-69 configuration. During that time I created quite a few CAD drawings in MicroStation to supplement the various modifications made to the ship that the kit did not encompass (it is as MO on surrender day, 1945). The Trumpeter kit, by the way, is far from correct as far as the hull is concerned and that was an exercise in reforming a misshaped hull - I did it one way, other modelers have done it in other fashions. However, the end product is this:

She is 53" LOA. Much of the superstructure and all masts/RADARs/antenna, etc. are scratchbuilt. I incorporated 3D parts from a couple vendors in addition to supplemental PE & Decking - I had the decking vendor (Pontos) create the wood decking to my drawn specifications which was modified from their MISSOURI deck parts. I also designed 2 PE sheets for parts and found a UK vendor to print them for me. During the 6 years of building this model I had the pleasure of correspondence and communications with the late Richard Landgraff who oversaw some of her 1968 final mods and also her complete 1981-82 refit - he knew the ship inside & out.

 

Back to drafting - here is my full size drafting table just after resurrection in my workshop earlier this year:

It is now covered up with FLETCHER Class plans, my CAD drawings, and a light table on the lower right. My shop construction is a complete topic of its own over on Workshop Equipment, etc. forum in case you're interested.

 

Hank

That is a beautiful model. When I built my Missouri I had followed the instructions on painting and painted the teak wood deck a flat dark blue. I cannot recall the mix needed to obtain the correct colors but found it interesting that the Navy would paint all that beautiful wood. I know it was for camouflage from attacking planes. I have wondered if the sailors on board preferred the painting vs. holy stoning the deck. I cannot recall if any of the Iowa Class ships had the disruptive type paint scheme. I have seen models with that type of painting but have never found any information on how it would be done, unless it was done after assembly of most of the model and painted with a brush. I also found after a few builds that using paints designed for model railroading to be better then the Tamiya brand paint they listed to mix to get the need color. I learned a lot about weathering and using washes and how to lighten colors to get a good scale appearance when modeling armor. I applied those same techniques in my ship modeling and I found that the ship appeared more realistic.  

I too have given away the Tamiya ship models I have done over the years, mostly to friends and family. I had a buddy from work ask me to build him the Bismarck. I built a glass display case and had the ship sitting on blocks much like in dry dock. When it was finished I took it into work to give it to him and everybody crowded around it and I spent the next hour answering questions and politely declining offers from others to build them a ship. I built the model for just the cost of materials and because he was a good friend.  I didn't want to get into commission type building because I want to enjoy building and learning new ways to improve.  If I had started building for profit or had to build a certain model multiple times I would not have been able to explore new methods or been able to research different subjects. I was building 1/35 Armor and 1/48 - 1/32 aircraft along with ships, both 1/350 and Wood Sailing type kits. I liked the variety and going from subject to subject.  This was before the internet and I spent a lot of time at the library and in book stores reading all I could on the subject I was modeling at the time. I have a home office and shop along with any flat surface in my house filled with books and magazines I have accumulated over a lifetime. I was smart when Barnes and Noble came out with the Nook and ebooks I started getting all my magazines electronically. Then Amazon came out with Kindle and I have saved so much space by going digital with all my reading needs, plus saved some cash in the process. I still will purchase books now and then to keep a series going in some subjects I follow, but I only have two periodicals delivered a month verses have twelve each month the rest are delivered electronically. 

Sorry, kinda went off on a tangent there. 

[mangulator63]

11 hours ago, kurtvd19 said:

I was interested in both the home ex for cooking and shorthand.  Back in 1961 home ex was for females only.  No exceptions.  I wanted to learn shorthand so I could take notes in classes.  NO had to take typing before shorthand.  At the time I never envisioned a need to learn typing - if I knew then what I know now I would have taken it.  Back then girls were not allowed to take any shop classes except drafting.

What should be mandatory is a class on life skills.  How to make a budget.  How to balance a check book - realizing only dinosaurs actually write checks.  How to cook.  I had a friend who wound up damn near starving to death when he and his wife separated.  W/o carry out delivery he would have starved.

I was lucky it was mandatory when I was enrolled. 

I ordered a lot of pizza and drank way too much beer during my solitude.  I did cook and clean,  pay the bills and got along fairly well. During times I was suddenly single I had the smarts to draft a few single buddies as room mates to help out and keep me out of trouble.

[Dr PR]

Here are a couple of comments related to these discussions.

 

1. I just had a great Christmas dinner that included barbecue ribs cooked up by my significant other's youngest son. He took home economics in school and learned to cook. He is a really good cook! So I guess I can thank his home ec teacher in part for the great ribs!.

 

2. I have several thousand blueprints for the Cleveland class cruisers on microfilm. I have scanned and digitized hundreds of them for making my USS Oklahoma City model. I scanned at the equivalent of about 9000 dpi on the film. This produced clear images of even the smallest lettering.

 

Each drawing has a title box with the draftsman's initials and I soon learned to recognize the draftsman by looking at the lettering. And different people had different ways to create drawings. The scanned images are so good that I can see the tiny pencil dots that were used for centers of circles and to evenly space guide lines for the text. I love looking at these blueprints and learning how the ships were built.

 

However, some of the lettering is very poorly done. One fellow made 3 and 5 almost identical, so if the microfilm image isn't really clear you can't tell these numbers apart. And some drawings have long sequences of comments documenting changes. These were made my multiple people and the lettering quality varies from good to horrible. Some of the draftsmen were better artists than others!

 

****

 

Now I take exception to the comments that all CAD drawings are alike or not artistic. Like the paper drawings, it depends upon the draftsman. At least all of the text is legible! But different people make CAD drawings in different ways. I have worked with engineers who did sloppy work, on paper and in CAD. And I have worked with some fellows who truly were CAD artists, who took pride in their work and added all the little details that distinguish a nice blueprint from a bad one.

 

Again, everyone has their own opinion. I have worked extensively with paper drafting and CAD. I appreciate nice work done either way.

Edited December 26, 2020 by Dr PR

[Hank]

Phil,

I appreciate your comments above re. CAD and tend to basically agree with your observations. While I wouldn't characterize CAD drawings as being "artistic" I would say that some very proficient CAD drafters have been able to produce 3D rendered drawings (and I include your OKY BOAT pix) that certainly could almost pass for photos. I think this is an exception and not the rule overall. You are IMHO, completely correct in that much of it depends on that individual's ability to produce a quality and professional drawing in the end. There is a talent and knack to this, it's not by accident!

I'll go back to one of my earlier comments regarding the 1935 drawings at NARA II that I found of BB-38 after her modernization. These wonderful "artistic" plans were more than likely drawn ink on vellum (at least the originals that I handled appeared to be such) and that particular draftsman had an extremely professional ability in his artwork. That's the main reason I wanted scans of those drawings. While computers can produce all sorts of colors, shades, tones, etc. they tend to lack a certain "artistic" aspect of drawing that manual drawings have - nuances, if that's the correct word for it, and I think a lot of this is due to the individual in the "driver's seat". I've seen quite a few recent 3D renderings of War of 1812 era combatants that are commercially available as "artwork" and I'm sorry, they simply don't have the same "feel" that the traditional water color or oil/acrytic paintings have. They tend to be "technical" rather than "artistic" in composition.

Along the way of 47 years of drafting/CAD etc. I can honestly say that I've met very FEW engineers who could produce a correctly scaled and accurate engineering drawing that was actually useful. The usual answer was "I'm not being paid to do drafting!" - and their resulting drawings showed that over and over again (down & dirty). But, corporate heads now have virtually eliminated the Draftsman and even Designer level positions to save $$.

However, in this hobby of ship modeling I think that anyone who is able to make their own drawings, whether CAD or manual, is certainly a few steps ahead of someone who lacks these abilities. The CAD drawings I've made for my various model projects were created to make parts, not to be "artwork" per-se, while at the same time "finished drawings" that I could share with others upon request, etc. Layout & composition, etc. being rule of thumb!

As a side note, while my PENNSYLVANIA model is still basically in the box, I have already drawn up brand new main mast drawings, deck equipment drawings, and a few other miscellaneous details for that model in MicroStation 2D CAD and have shared some with Steve Larsen (Model Monkey) in order for him to produce 3D parts. ARIZONA and PENNSY are NOT identical in several aspects. 

 

Hank

[Roger Pellett]

“ However, in this hobby of ship modeling I think that anyone who is able to make their own drawings whether CAD or manual, is certainly a few steps ahead of someone who lacks these abilities.”

 

Well said, Hank!  Without these abilities modelers are limited to modeling a variety of subjects where kits or prepackaged plan sets are not available.

[jet]

I try to join HANK about his Beautiful Achievement whose presentation is simply magnificent and deserves to appear in a Navy museum. It is a Beautiful Tribute to all those who are in the NAVY and who find themselves on all fields of operation throughout the world. A very large majority of Americans who have served their NATION or who have not been able to do so for various reasons are extremely proud of their Armies and their Navy and this is a great way to show all their attachment. I too am working on a display stand for the USS NEW JERSEY (1/200) and would have liked to know where HANK got hold of all the Medals and Awards earned by the USS NEW JERSEY throughout of its exemplary service and which can be seen in the foreground, on the display. I have however searched on the Net, in vain. I would very much like to have the same for the display on which I am currently working, if that is Is it possible to get them of course? I wish HANK a good continuation for his future projects if the passion has not left him... jet.

[mtaylor]

Jet, I responded in your other post here:  https://modelshipworld.com/topic/33148-uss-new-jersey-awards-medals/    Do try the PM to him. 

 

[Riotvan88]

On 12/23/2020 at 11:55 PM, mangulator63 said:

I'm just curious,  does anyone still sit at a drafting board and design and draw anymore?

 

What feels like a thousand years ago, I went to school to be an architect. To my Fathers dismay after graduation I chose to go into a unrelated profession.  But I have used those skills I learned throughout my life.  When I went to school CAD or computer technology was far off into the future. When CAD came into its own over time I never had any desire to take a class or had any use for it to be honest.  IMHO I feel it is not a true form of drafting in the sense it is digital to where actual drafting to me is a form of art.  I'm sure many will disagree with me and I know it is needed in today's digital world with CNC use and with digital 3D perspectives being the norm now for any form of construction or presentation. Maybe I'm just a dinosaur and set in my ways but I cannot see myself having the same sense of personal pride of of accomplishment showing off a digital design viewed from a computer screen or printed on a printer vs. something hand drawn on quality sheet of drafting film.

I worked for a public school district and over the years I watched as they discontinued and dismantled the Middle and High School Drafting Classes along with the Wood and Metal Shop programs. THe teaching done today is focused in how to design in a digital world and how to program machines to do the actual work of construction.

I watched as they gutted those rooms and shops, removing all the tools and machines and drafting tables. Those rooms today are carpeted and air conditioned and full of computers. Students are glued to computer screens all day never learning to take their own idea make a scaled drawing of it, to  build it using their hands and machines and tools like their fathers and grandfathers.  But in today's world of manufacturing this is what is needed to become employed. Its a shame that we no longer teach students to use their hands to design and create.

Today your able to take a CAD design and using a CNC machine produce carvings in wood just as well as a craftsman had done by hand in the past. I guess in time craftsman will be a thing of the past.

Sorry for the rant, I have searched through the forum and I'm just curious if anyone still sits at a Drafting Table and draws by hand anymore. If so, I would like to hear from you.

Thanks,

Tim

 

I'm an Engineer when I was at uni in 2010 our teacher made us learn to draft on boards before we could go into CAD. I liked this approach as you actually use alot of the basic skills even in CAD especially true if using a parametric tool that uses sketches to create 3D objects. Contrary to popular belief CAD dosn't do it all for you it is simply a digital board that renders a 3D model from 2D infomation. A user still needs to be able to produce that 2D info properly for the system to generate a 3D visualization.

 

You are correct however that drafting on a board is more of an art. At work I've occasionally though rarely had to work from drawings as some of our older products are pre CAD and still need modifying/upgrading. CAD certainly speeds up the design process as you can go through multiple iterations of a design rapidly on a CAD and detect clash easier. You can rapidly design multiple parts in assemblies and check fitment, tolerance, maintainabilty issues etc. From a user perspective as a tool to do a job CAD wins everytime.

 

The 2D drawings produced from CAD programs do lack any artistic flair IMO and are bland. I occasionally design things for personal projects on my A0 Neolt drafting table using rotoring isograpgh pens and agree it is definitely satisfying to add line weights, stippling and little details to make the drawing really pop. Such things a CAD produced drawing lacks. 

 

But to be fair I end up using fusion 360 for 90% because it just makes the design process so much faster not to mention ability to 3D print mock ups and the like

Edited November 12, 2022 by Riotvan88

[Roger Pellett]

This may no longer be relevant, BUT:  There are, or at used to be, certain projections; orthographic, isometric, etc. that are part of the language for communications between the engineering office and the shop floor.

 

In the industry that I worked in isometric drawings for piping systems were supplied to the field forces to aid in construction.  These were made by our draftsmen from the various orthographic drawings provided by the project’s engineering company.  The first CAD designers that we hired announced that they could make “better” pictorial drawings using different projections. They could not understand that isometrics were a product that we were selling to meet a contract requirement.

 

My son, also an engineer, took mechanical drawing in high school as an elective.  This at least allowed him to learn certain fundamental industry conventions that are useful in his work.

 

Roger

[Riotvan88]

2 hours ago, Roger Pellett said:

This may no longer be relevant, BUT:  There are, or at used to be, certain projections; orthographic, isometric, etc. that are part of the language for communications between the engineering office and the shop floor.

 

In the industry that I worked in isometric drawings for piping systems were supplied to the field forces to aid in construction.  These were made by our draftsmen from the various orthographic drawings provided by the project’s engineering company.  The first CAD designers that we hired announced that they could make “better” pictorial drawings using different projections. They could not understand that isometrics were a product that we were selling to meet a contract requirement.

 

My son, also an engineer, took mechanical drawing in high school as an elective.  This at least allowed him to learn certain fundamental industry conventions that are useful in his work.

 

Roger

Still relevant. In Aerospace we still use isometric, 1st and 3rd angle projections. We don't draw them anymore we model parts/assemblies in a 3D program that then spits out whatever drawing is required. In fairness one must understand geometry to create the 3D model in the first place. 

[Dr PR]

I think the most common problem folks have in transitioning from 2D drawings to a 3D model is they re still thinking in 2D drafting table terms. 2D CAD programs are designed to replicate the 2D drafting table operations, creating a 2D image, but with an extensive set of tools to make the job easier.

 

But for 3D drawing you have to forget what you learned for 2D work and learn to visualize the 3D structure of the object. You aren't creating a "drawing" in 3D, you are creating a virtual 3D object, and many (most?) of the tools in 3D CAD are different from 2D.. You need to understand 3D geometry. For me 3D design is more like working with a milling machine or lathe than with a pen and paper.

 

However, in the end you may need to generate 2D drawings in the proper projections. Unless your 3D design is going directly to a CNC (computer controlled machine) you will need 2D images for the machinists. The programs I have used produce top, side and front hidden line images, and they allow you to rotate the object at any angles/perspectives and generate a hidden line drawing or a shaded image.

[Louie da fly]

I had the same problem/realization when I first started working in 3D modelling after many years of AutoCad. The whole mindset is different. As Dr PR put it, you are creating a 3D object in cyberspace. I have to say I far prefer this approach, a any changes you make to the 3d "model" are immediately available in all the orthographic views. Compare this to 2D, where you have to laboriously redraw or at least amend every view - plan, 4 elevations, cross-sections, details etc - to incorporate the changes - so easy to miss one (I worked with house design).

 

After coming across 3D modelling I became very frustrated with the wasted effort and opportunity for error involved in 2D drawing - but the people I worked for weren't prepared to outlay the necessary money to change over to 3D (mind you, one of the principals of one place I worked for, an architect, couldn't even use AutoCad!)

 

Steven

[AON]

I always had to see the assembly being built, fitted together, in my minds eye before I could start a 2D drawing.

I was surprised when I learnt not all people do this.

We had a very talented wood carver in our office, he had won ribbons for his life like birds.

I couldn't believe he could produce things so beautiful but could not envision a mechanical assembly to draw it!

 

3D does require a good deal of advanced planning that I still find challenging.

[flying_dutchman2]

@mangulator63

"I'm just curious,  does anyone still sit at a drafting board and design and draw anymore?"

 

Yes, I do. I still have my drafting table and Rotring pens (from 1978 when I studied landscape Architecture at the Horticulture College in the Netherlands) and still use them. My present built went from 1:75 to 1:37.5.  I have a fast pc with TurboCAD installed on it. But firing that up and scanning in the plans, blowing that up to twice the size, printing them all, and then taping that all together takes much longer then cutting a piece of velum from a 5 ft wide 100 ft long roll. Measure by hand the dimensions on the original plans and transcribe them on the 1:37.5.  

 

Marc