How to seize a block to an iron band

[Laggard]

This is ridiculous.  I’ve read every pdf here and watched every video on how to seize a block.  Some of them show the finished product:  a block with a line attached to it.  Not one shows how to then attach this line to the band on the mast.  One seemingly helpful article shows how to do it, but with a hook on the end of the line. 
 

I need to somehow get past this to move forward.  

[popeye2sea]

It's not clear from your question what parts you are referring to. Are you asking how to attach the strop of a block to a mast band or are you asking how to attach a line coming from the block? The strop is the rope that passes around a block and allows the block to be suspended from a fitting or spar.

 

Not sure where you are referring to, but blocks would not normally be attached directly to a mast band. There would have been an eye bolted through or into the band. In which case the eye of the block would be seized to the eye on the band. The seizing would take the form of a lashing between the two eyes. If the block was stropped with a hook, then the hook would be hooked into the eye on the band.

 

Another method for attaching a block to a mast would be to have a long strop with eyes on both legs of the strop. The legs were passed around the mast and the eyes lashed together on the opposite side with a rose lashing.

 

Regards,

[Laggard]

I’ll post a better photo later but you can see it on the mast here.  Two of them. 

[popeye2sea]

I would have an eyebolt on the back of those bands to seize the strop of the blocks to.

 

Regards,

[Laggard]

[wefalck]

Normally, if you have an iron band around a spar it would have one or more eyebolt attached to it (the method depends on the period). Blocks stropped with a rope would have an eye formed with that rope. This eye would be formed around a metal cringle which goes through the eye of a hook. This hook would be hooked into the eyebolt on the mast and the hook is secured with a 'musing', which is twine wound around the neck of the hook and its tip (which slightly bent up to prevent the twine from slipping).

 

In the second half of the 19th century the hook would be replaced by a shackle (this only became an option once threads had been standardised).

 

At the same time (internal) iron stropped appeared, which also would be attached with shackles.

 

[Gregory]

15 hours ago, Laggard said:

This is ridiculous.  I’ve read every pdf here and watched every video on how to seize a block.  Some of them show the finished product:  a block with a line attached to it.  Not one shows how to then attach this line to the band on the mast.  One seemingly helpful article shows how to do it, but with a hook on the end of the line. 
 

I need to somehow get past this to move forward.  

 

 

Just to make sure you are getting good info, it would help to have more information about the model and the purpose of the block.

 

If the plans do not show how to set up the block, there may be other missing or incorrect information.

[Laggard]

9 hours ago, wefalck said:

Normally, if you have an iron band around a spar it would have one or more eyebolt attached to it (the method depends on the period). Blocks stropped with a rope would have an eye formed with that rope. This eye would be formed around a metal cringle which goes through the eye of a hook. This hook would be hooked into the eyebolt on the mast and the hook is secured with a 'musing', which is twine wound around the neck of the hook and its tip (which slightly bent up to prevent the twine from slipping).

 

In the second half of the 19th century the hook would be replaced by a shackle (this only became an option once threads had been standardised).

 

At the same time (internal) iron stropped appeared, which also would be attached with shackles.

 

It just says to create the metal band, solder it closed and then drill a hole through the end.  Then seize the block to the band.  The plans themselves don’t show how to seize anything. 
 

These are literally the only instructions provided:  

 

 

Edited August 24, 2021 by Laggard
Added info

[Gregory]

The rigging on that boat will be a lot like the Medway Longboat.

 

 

In the post above Chuck explains making the bands from tape instead of metal.  I make similar bands from black cardstock.

 

If you go further in that log, you will see the blocks are stropped and hooks added.

 

 

The rigging on the longboat would have been easy to break down, and the blocks would not have been permanently attached to the mast.

 

Follow that log and you can't go wrong.  If you are not comfortable making the hooks,  I have found these to be pretty good, after being blackened..

 

Crafty Sailor Hooks

 

Note: They come in several sizes.

[Ryland Craze]

Henry, Check out the build logs for the Model Shipways 18th Century Longboat.  I did a search and came up with three pages of build logs.  I am sure that some of these that have gotten to the rigging of their Longboats may show how they did the iron bands and seizing the blocks to the iron bands.  Here is a link of the search that I did: https://modelshipworld.com/tags/18th century longboat/

 

In addition, you may want to check out YouTube as there are several good videos on seizing blocks.

[Laggard]

Thanks for the links, Ryland.  Read them all but could not find my question answered.  
 

Two things though stood out:

 

My boat looks so much crappier than all these.  
 

Someone posted that despite what model shipways says, this is not a good first kit.  
 

Im off to YouTube!

[Gregory]

You didn't see  any help in my post above?

[glbarlow]

Gregory and Rylan answer your question. Simply put, use black masking tape to simulate the iron band, drill a hole and insert a blackened eyelet to complete the simulation, seize a block to that eyelet using the method described in many logs. Pretty simple.  If it’s the basic how to seize a block to an eyelet or a hook there are plenty of tutorials and step by step guides on this site as well as YouTube to see how it’s done. 

Edited August 25, 2021 by glbarlow

[Laggard]

3 hours ago, glbarlow said:

Gregory and Rylan answer your question. Simply put, use black masking tape to simulate the iron band, drill a hole and insert a blackened eyelet to complete the simulation, seize a block to that eyelet using the method described in many logs. Pretty simple.  If it’s the basic how to seize a block to an eyelet or a hook there are plenty of tutorials and step by step guides on this site as well as YouTube to see how it’s done. 

Black masking tape?  Thanks for the suggestion though. 
 

I’ve seen a dozen photos of the finished product, couple videos that didn’t clarify anything but that’s it.  I looked at every single build log provided.    None really explain where the line starts, where it winds around and even how to then attach it to the band on the mast.  Just use the old granny knot?
 

Thanks for the suggestions.  I’ll figure it out.  
 

[glbarlow]

You don’t seem to want the help offered. I did exactly what you’re asking about in my rigging of the masts on my Cheerful build. Seizing blocks is a common process in model building. 
 

Good luck in figuring it out.

Edited August 25, 2021 by glbarlow

[Laggard]

Wow.  I sincerely want the help and have looked at everything provided.  Nothing matches completely what these instructions are asking of me.  
 

For now I’m going to use my standard fishing knot as it has multiple wraps around the line that resembles photos of seized blocks. 
 

I’m also going to try to find a supplier for metal hooks as there is no way I have the dexterity to make them myself.  

[wefalck]

I would recommend to ignore instructions in kits - sometimes they are good, sometimes they are bad, but in most cases they provide simple solutions that are often far from what the real thing would have looked like.

 

The guys of old knew what they were doing and their methods have been tested and refined over the centuries. So, within the limits of materials availability and your own capabilities, it is always a good idea to follow prototype practice as closely as possible.

 

Perhaps also a word of clarification: 'seizing' means to attach something with a thin rope, similar to sewing. This is not normally done with blocks at all ! What you are interested in is 'stropping', which consists of making a loop of rope and putting it closely around items such as blocks or also spars. These strops are usually tightened with the help of 'seizing', but the seizings go around the rope, not around blocks or spars.

 

I am not an expert on 18th century rigging, but have the strong feeling that the kit instructions are not quite correct. The masts on such 'long-boats' are rigged only temporarily and were easy to strike. In the 18th century wrought-iron bands with eye-bolts were not very commong and I would not expect such fitting on a relatively thin mast as that of the long-boat. It would have been more likely that the mast was provided with shoulders at the locations, where the standing rigging would attach and where any blocks would attach. A spliced strop would fit tighly around the mast and block forming a figure of eight, being tied down in the middle with a seizing.

 

It is quite easy to form such strops from rigging thread (or better real 'rope') using a fake splice, i.e. pushing the ends through each other with the help of a sewing needle. The fake splice then is secured with a drop of varnish. With a much thinner thread you tie the strop to a figure of eight going around the block and the mast. The whole thing then is secured again with a drop of varnish.

 

Such an arrangement would also prevent the eye sticking too far out as in the kit instructions.

 

 

[allanyed]

Laggard

Wefalck makes some excellent points and is giving good advice.   

As to making hooks, they are not that hard to make.  Do a search here at MSW.  One example is below which references tutorials as well. 

  Allan 

 

 

 

[Gregory]

5 hours ago, Laggard said:

I’m also going to try to find a supplier for metal hooks as there is no way I have the dexterity to make them myself.  

 

12 hours ago, Gregory said:

Crafty Sailor Hooks

I provided this information in the post above.

 

I also imagine you didn't look at the information I provided about the Medway long boat, as it has  very detailed photos of  blocks stropped with hooks.

 

[Gregory]

Here is another nice image from the log of BobF

 

You will be hard pressed to find any kit with detailed instructions for stropping blocks.

If you search forum topics for the word " stropping " or " strop " you will find a lot of different approaches, that you will have to sort out for yourself, and find a method that suits you.

 

Here is another example:

 

 

Here are some of GlBarlow's simulated iron bands ( made with tape )

 

 

Here is some of his stropping work with hooks..

 

 

Edited August 25, 2021 by Gregory

[glbarlow]

Wow, lots of complicated historical philosophizing here for such a simple question. 
 

Gregory has given you a lot of help.  My Cheerful photos seem to hold up under micro photography but I can assure you at a normal viewing distance my “iron band” method, learned from Chuck Passaro btw, it definitely does. Crafty Sail is a good source of hooks, especially for the model your working on. An actual metal band would be hard to do on that mast and not worth the trouble.

 

Your “fishing lure tie,” wraps around a looped line, inserted back through the loop and seized is exactly what’s used to ‘connect’ a hook to a rope. The block is in one loop, the eye of the hook through the other. There is a guy on YouTube, I don’t recall his name, that show how to do this. In fact a granny knot is another method, but use what you know how to do. 

 

 

 

[wefalck]

Historical insight determines what needs to be done - not convenience ...

[Gregory]

8 hours ago, wefalck said:

In the 18th century wrought-iron bands with eye-bolts were not very common and I would not expect such fitting on a relatively thin mast as that of the long-boat.

The builder of this contemporary 1742 model didn't get the memo..😁

 

[Laggard]

Thank you all for your generous help.  I have a lot of info to look through now and learn.  Perhaps my unfamiliarity with terms only complicates my question.  
 

Ive got this now.  
 

Now, can anyone help me unseize the block on a 68 Chevy?

[allanyed]

 

Just a thought here, not looking to poke or provoke anyone.     Love the boat picture from RMG  that was posted above which I think comes from (https://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/66291.html)   But, while it is contemporary, has it gone through modern renovation like many models that old.  RMG does not usually give those details, only the original date a model was probably built.  Rigging for example on a 260 year old model may not be original.    If it is original , I would love to learn more about what material was used and how it has been preserved for nearly three centuries.   

Cheers guys,

Allan 

[wefalck]

Gregory, have a look at how the hooks are put into the eye-bolts. They are the wrong way around. This gives the impression that the rigg has been restored at some point.

 

Ooops ... posted this at the same time as you, Allen.

Edited August 25, 2021 by wefalck

[Gregory]

Are there any reliable references for longboat rigging in 1742?

[allanyed]

The era matters and the scantlings from The Elements and Practice of Rigging and Seamanship by Steel (London 1794)  may not be apropos, but lacking other information more contemporary to 1742, these may be at least a little bit useful.    These scantlings and tackle descriptions, including if there is a hook and eye, single, double or other type block, traveler, heart and thimble, &c. can also be found on pages 98-101 of W.E. Mays' book Boats of Men of War which he acknowledges came from Steel.   

 

Looking for earlier similarly detailed sources, but not coming up with anything so far.

 

Allan

Edited August 25, 2021 by allanyed

[wefalck]

Almost certainly no specific ones, as this was an artisanal job for the shipyard and to be maintained on board a ship.

[Gregory]

Laggard  was looking for information to attach blocks to a mast in a model kit.

 

I think we provided some good information.

 

Pointing out that something is historically inaccurate without offering a good alternative doesn't really help the aspiring modeler very much, and may very well discourage them because they are intimidated by " not getting it right " according to the experts..

 

 

Edited August 25, 2021 by Gregory