Planking: Edge cut or face cut

[Steve20]

I'm about to cut some planks for the first time but I'm not sure how I should cut the timber. I've read posts on the subject but have come across conflicting opinions so I'd be very grateful if someone could help find clarity on this for my particular case.

 

I've got Castello Boxwood (Brazilian Lemonwood), Pear and Sycamore - see a sample of each in the pic. From these should I saw the wood in such a way that I end up with the edge of the timber becoming the face of the cut planks (edge cut, I believe) or should they be from the face.

[Steve20]

[Bob Cleek]

3 hours ago, Steve20 said:

From these should I saw the wood in such a way that I end up with the edge of the timber becoming the face of the cut planks (edge cut, I believe) or should they be from the face.

That would depend upon the way the plank you are cutting from was originally sawn. The question is really what do you want for grain orientation in the plank?  In full-size construction for carvel planking, you want the grain running perpendicular to the wide face of the plank ("quarter sawn" or "rift sawn") and for lapstrake planking, you want the grain running parallel to the wide face of the plank ("plain sawn.") This is because dry wood swells across the grain when it becomes wet, so that the carvel planks will swell so that the plank edges at the seams will press tightly against each other, while lapstrake plank faces at the overlapping plank seams will swell against each other.  There are a number of regionally popular terms for saw cuts, as well, but basically it's all about the way the grain runs in the plank.

 

This will depend upon how the log is sawn:

 

 

Quarter sawn plank:

 

 

http://blog.carbideprocessors.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Sawn-Lumber.jpg

 

 

The grain orientation is of less importance with models, where the appearance of the plank faces, where the grain appearance of bright finished plank faces is an important consideration in achieving the proper scale appearance. For a model that will be finished bright, you want as little grain showing as possible and preferably none showing at all. This will generally favor rift-sawn stock, as can be seen from the picture above. (And, as rift-sawn stock is the most labor intensive and the most wasteful, it is also the most expensive.) This consideration is mitigated by the lack of visible grain in some select woods, such as castello boxwood and Alaska yellow cedar. Pear will also provide areas of select unfigured stock, but the strong color variations in a single piece of pear will often demand that only a limited portion of matching wood can be gotten out of a single plank. For example, you may get some suitable light-colored plank lengths cut from the sapwood on the left side of the pear plank pictured, but it's unlikely you'd get evenly colored planks from the heartwood on the right side of the pictured pear plank.

 

Structure is also important. Given the stock you've pictured, I'd be cutting plank strips from the long edges of the planks you have. As for the pear, however, the piece doesn't appear particularly "straight grained" and you don't want to cut planking strips in a way which will yield planks with grain running across the plank strip such that the strip will easily break at the grain crossing when you try to bend the plank to fit the curve of the hull. That said, it's hard to tell just looking at the top edge of the plank pictured. A test strip or two should confirm if it's suitable for bending without breakage.

 

There is a good treatment of milling modeling stock in Volume II of the NRG's Ship Modeler's Shop Notes. You may find this article helpful as well, although it addresses milling with full-size woodshop tools. https://thenrg.org/resources/Documents/articles/MillingScaleLumber.pdf  Most modelers use larger shop tools to cut smaller billets of select wood from which they mill their modeling stock with smaller saws such as the Byrnes Model Machines 4" table saw.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Bob Cleek

[Jaager]

Steve,

I think that one answer is that it is up to you. 

If you are using a large bandsaw to do this resaw operation

If it is planking stock that you are producing

The easy way it to slice the plank width as the slice thickness - with extra for thickness sander removal

Then the plank thickness is what your Byrnes table saw slices off.

If the grain that will show is not what you want on display:

 

That a much thicker slice for the first cut from the board - one that is as thick as you are comfortable feeding into your bandsaw.

If you are stuck with using a 10" table saw - this slice is whatever the maximum depth of cut for you saw blade  ~ 1-2" usually

Rotate thisk stock 90 degrees.

Then slice the pre sander widths.   The Byrnes saw product will be the plane cut face  There could be no grain or grain arcs depending on your luck.

 

I hope that your Sycamore is the English species using that name - Acer pseudoplatanus 

If it is the American species using that name -  Platanus occidentalis   You really do not want it showing.  It is a bit brittle, it stinks,  another name for it is Lacewood - the grain is really busy.

The Acer is almost as hard as Hard Maple -  with Hard Maple - edge slices can show a variety of grain patterns - fire - fiddleback - all of the patterns that other sorts of woodworkers pay a lot extra for and that we do not want.   It is up to chance and depends on the way the tree rings are oriented to the plane of the blade.

For frame timber in the lower hull where there is a curve- there is no hope for invisible grain figures -  I just let Mother Nature win that one.

 

Your Pear looks like a challenge.

If you have an edger - getting a straight edge - will cost you a lot of wood

If you do not have an edger - you really want a bandsaw

a ~1/2" carrier board  to rife against the fence and be on the saw table.   Fix the Pear plank to the carrier - drywall screws if you gotta -  with enough beyond the outer edge of the carrier that the blade will get you your complete straight edge.

The outer cutoff and be against the fence too - slices from it will just be ever shorter and the end grain will be really angled  - but it will not be edger chips either.

 

The carrier board on a bandsaw is also way way to mill logs and branches.   Steel framing braces and long screws to keep it fixed to the carrier.

[bridgman]

Steve:

Recommend  you run all of you wood through a surface planer to obtain as smooth a surface as possible.

This will permit an evaluation of the grain pattern appearance and any flaws or unusable sections. Selection of  

the next cutting sequence could then be made. Same effort will be useful on the edges of each piece.

This can be done by hand with much difficulty, a power tool would be quicker and less taxing.

Bridgman Bob 

[Steve20]

Bob, you've provided a lot of very useful information and from this I understand that I cut the Castello and Sycamore plank faces from the stock edges.

 

Your comments on the Pear are particularly valuable as I didn't think about the colour variations. I now know to separate these into different groups. I have 1/2 cu ft of Pear so should be able to get enough matching wood to make good use of it. Similarly, I note what you say about the grain and will cut and use planks with this in mind. I'll definitly cut some test strips.  

 

For setting-up the saws, I'll be following your instructions in detail. I have a proxxon table saw with a maximum  cut of 22mm (I'm in the UK and the Byrnes is not available here) and a small band saw that cuts up to 80mm. Therefore, I'll use the bandsaw to cut the wood into smaller billets then cut strips to what thickness I can get the bandsaw to take these down to. If needs be I will then use the table saw.

 

I had no idea about a modified stock plate but can now see it to be essential and I will make this and the accessories.  I have three high carbon blades: a general purpose 1/4" 6TPI blade, a  1/2" 6TPI blade, and a 1/4" 14TPI blade.

 

The manufacturer gives a general guide on blade selection and from this I understand that I would use the 1/2" 6TPI blade to cut billets up to 2" thickness and the 1/4" 14TPI blade to cut thin strips in sub 1" thickness. Any idea if these are the right blades to use? Also, would you know if I should use the 1/4" or the 1/2" blade if I use the 6TPI for the billets?

 

Thanks a lot for all the information, Bob.

 

Steve

 

 

 

[Steve20]

Jaager,
As you can see from my reply to Bob that I am limited in what I do by the saws I've got. I'll start with the bandsaw then probably move onto the Proxxon FET table saw when I have sufficiently reduced billets. I have a Proxxon 36 tooth 80 x 1.6 TCT blade that came with the machine and a Proxxon 80 tooth 85mm x 0.5mm blade which I believe will be good for the plank milling. I'll set-up the machine as Bob advises and hopefully will get good results from it.

 

Fortunately, the Sycamore I have is English Acer pseudoplatanus and I'll now be careful never to buy Platanus occidentalis - amazingly useful information I'm getting from here!

 

Without me asking you've solved my next problem: how to cut the Pear without a straight edge. I'll make the 1/2" carrier board you describe and that should get me over another hurdle.

 

Thanks for your help and information.

Steve

[Steve20]

Bridgman Bob,
I thought for a long time about buying a thicknesser and finally purchased a Proxxon DH40 which was delivered last week. I thicknessed my first four pieces with it a couple of days ago and I'm really pleased with the results and how easy it is to use. Thanks for the advice on grain evaluation; I will now thickness trial planks before milling any quantities of planking, especially the Pear.

Thanks again.

Steve

Edited November 22, 2021 by Steve20

[mtaylor]

Steve,

For blades, use this reference.. while it's for the Byrnes, there's a section on blades for different thickness woods along with with some good info for those of us who use other mini-saws.

 

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/23843-byrnes-saw-reference-also-good-for-other-desktop-hobby-saws/

 

Edit:   If you'll read (I should have mentioned this) the topic, you'll see others popping up with suppliers of blades.

[Bob Cleek]

This may be an obvious observation, but you can use double your table saw's depth of cut by cutting one side, then turning it over and cutting the opposite side. The two cuts should overlap a bit and double the effective depth of cut. If that is still not enough, cutting a kerf on each side on the table saw and then cutting the remaining distance between the two table saw cuts by using the table saw cuts to guide the cut of your band saw will result in a very accurate cut particularly in paring off thin cuts from a billet.

[Steve20]

Thanks, mtaylor, very good information.  I looked for the Thurston blades but see they are not manufacturing now. Trouble is that Proxxon don't offer a good selection of blades and the Proxxon FET has a 10mm bore which limits the alternatives. One option may be the saw blade adapter from MicroMark which reduces 1/2" (12.7mm) bore down to 10mm for their MicroLux Mini Tilt Table Saw. This will likely fit the Proxxon.

https://www.micromark.com/Saw-Blade-Adapter

 

I see MicroMark also offer 1/2" bore slitting saw blades some of which are similar in kerf and TPI to those listed for Thurston. These blades are 3" diameter which is just a little less than the 80mm blades supplied by Proxxon.

https://www.micromark.com/mini-powertool/power-tools-accessories/saw-blades-cut-off-wheels/table-chop-saw-blades

 

I'll check some more because there must be plenty of people milling planks with the Proxxon and they've no doubt come up with the best solution.

 

[Steve20]

That's a good solution Bob and one I will make use of.

[Steve20]

I’ve decided to move forward on this and chose the bandsaw as this can cut greater thicknesses. I have an Axminster (UK) AC1400B which has a maximum cut of 8” (200mm) width and 3” (80mm) thickness. I opted for a small machine as the majority of what I will saw will be of smaller sizes and I wanted to set-up a workshop in a spare room rather than the garage. The machine weighs only 44lbs (20kg) so it’s easily ported.

 

[Steve20]

I only recently bought this machine as well as 3 blades to go with it understanding their use would be as follows:

1/4" (6.3mm) 6 TPI – standard blade - general purpose.
1/4" (6.3mm) 14 TPI – for cutting thinner sections up to 25mm T.
1/2" (12.7mm) 6 TPI - for cross cutting and ripping larger sections, the ½” width giving less flex and a straighter cut.

 

I made a zero-tolerance throat plate as recommend by Bob, but I deferred adding adjustment screws as the plate is quite small, and I might not need them. However, I rounded the underside outer perimeter corner and cleaned the plate ledge to ensure it would be properly seated. I then gradually sanded down the thickness until it sat flush with the table surface.

 

Edited November 27, 2021 by Steve20

[Steve20]

When cutting I found the blade now very steady, even when I lifted the upper plate guard from my usual 38mm to 75mm. However, it does prevent waste material from being carried away and this collects on the table surface. I might test drill a few (cautious) holes near the outer perimeter in the future.

 

 

Edited November 27, 2021 by Steve20

[Steve20]

I had selected the smallest piece of Pear I had (30” [76cm] x 8” [20cm]); the triangular shape giving it limited area and volume.

 

Edited November 27, 2021 by Steve20

[Steve20]

I made a temporary carrier and cut the piece into sections. The pear had a curvature in it and I lost quite a lot of material flattening this in the thicknesser. This was the first time that I had used a thicknesser (I’ve only just bought a Proxxon DH40) and I knew I had to insert wood with the grain in a direction that will not engender lifting. However, sometimes the Pear grain runs in opposite directions on the same piece, so I’ll have to consider this problem in the future.

 

Also, I found it necessary to note grain direction when thicknessing will be required on wood after it has been cut into thin sections because grain direction cannot easily be discerned on these.

 

As to this topic title. ‘Edge cut or face cut’, with the Pear that I have got it really makes no difference. The grain sometimes runs through the wood and sometimes across it, therefore, as Jaager said; I should decide the cut and use on a case-by-case basis.

 

I next selected a less aesthetically pleasing piece to try out 3” (76mm) cuts and I sliced two ¼” (6.4mm) pieces. I made them slightly oversize (see Jaager, again) to allow for sanding.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2021 by Steve20

[Steve20]

Using the ¼” (6.3mm) 14TPI blade I took a 16” (400mm) x ²⁷/₃₂” (21.4mm) x 1 ⁹/₆₄” (28.8mm) billet and sliced 2 (over sized) pieces with the aim of producing ¼” (6.3mm) planking. These came out a consistent around 6.7mm.

 

I then decided to thickness one down to ⁵/₃₂” (4mm) to cut ¹/₁₆” (1.6mm) rabbet strips for the model of Chucks Winchelsea I’m building. Once more, I made these slightly over thick.

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2021 by Steve20

[Steve20]

To make any pieces thinner than the above without a decent fence and feather board was not really pracical or sensible. But I was keen to try a few cuts out. I took the ⁵/₃₂” (4mm) piece to cut the ¹/₁₆” (1.6mm) strips. The first ones came out a little over-thick (about ⁵/₆₄” [2mm) because I overlooked the poor squareness and table contact at the lower edge of the fence.

 

Also, I realised that I needed to clean each newly cut face before I mated it to the fence for the next cut, because even small irregularities or debris affect thickness on these thin cuts. After some more trial cuts I reduced the thickness and got a strip just under ¹/₁₆” (1.5mm). I increased the thickness slightly and finally got 1.6mm strips oversize at 1.75mm). The pics, below, are as cut with no cleaning or sanding.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2021 by Steve20

[Steve20]

The strips are not quite a good as I would like but are better than I expected this far in. With a proper set-up on the bandsaw I know I can produce better. I found during sawing that any variation in horizontal pressure on these thin strips did vary the cut thickness and you can see this sometimes in the pics, particularly, on my first cuts. I will make the feather board that Bob has recommended as well as a suitable fence and jig to help prevent this.

 

I used the 11 cut strips to measure kerf so I can calculate wastage. Together these measure 1 ¾” (20.18mm) wide in total. The original ⁵/₃₂” (4mm) billet was 1 ⁹/₆₄” (28.83mm). The difference is ¹¹/₃₂” (8.65mm) and dividing this by 10 cuts give an average kerf of ¹/₃₂” (0.86mm).

 

The average strip width cut was ⁹/₁₂₈” (1.83mm). As a straight calculation (not considering depth of cut and volume), when cutting strips this thick the wastage due to kerf is 30%.

 

The thickness of the blade I used is ¹/₆₄” (0.5mm) and the teeth measure ³/₁₂₈” (0.6mm), so maybe I can reduce the kerf with a proper set-up.

 

 

Edited November 27, 2021 by Steve20

[mtaylor]

2 hours ago, Steve20 said:

When cutting I found the blade now very steady, even when I lifted the upper plate guard from my usual 38mm to 75mm. However, it does prevent waste material from being carried away and this collects on the table surface. I might test drill a few (cautious) holes near the outer perimeter in the future.

 

 

Drill some holes and test.   Too many or too large and the insert will deflect and may even break.   Do you have a shop vac attached to the saw?  Those help also.   I have found on my table saw and scroll saw that while the vac helps, there will still be dust after the cut.  Just not as much.

 

Your cuts on the wood look good inspite of the way the grain is running in all directions.

[Jaager]

Steve,

About the resawing using the bandsaw, 

The 1/2" blade is the width that I use on my 14" Rikon.  Wider does not seem to mean less wander.  The floor model saws have access to a variety blade choices.  For resaw operations, 3 - 4 teeth per inch work best.

A lot of wood is being removed per blade rotation and a big gullet is needed.  For expensive hardwood minimum set leaves a smoother surface - economy blades have too much set - bimetal blades cost a bit more, but last way longer than off the shelf steel.

My guess is that your benchtop bandsaw has few choices in blades.  My guess = all steel.   Buy a lot of backup  -  the blades dull faster than would be desired.

My unit tracks as well as I could expect after I followed the on-the-Web suggestion to site the blade teeth  at the crown of the top wheel.

      My old manuals have the back of the gullet at the crown - this produces less than ideal tracking.  The cost is that the teeth mar the wheel band.  Now, when the blade starts to wander or do a wedge instead in vertical, it means that the blade is getting dull

I am not sure that you are doing yourself any favor by using a zero clearance insert at the table for resawing.   Nothing is going to be small enough to fall or jam even if there is no insert.  You are discovering the wood chip problem by not letting the kerf travel down to the vac intake.  It may also get between the stock and the tabletop?

 

I also have a 9" tabletop bandsaw.  I use it almost exclusively for scroll cutting.  This operation does want a near zero clearance insert.  Wood chips can jam the internal track of the blade - especially at the below the table blade supports.  The chips also can fire off like a bullet.   ( I do not care for the up-down pressure on the stock that a scroll saw produces.  A bandsaw is downward pressure only.  The downside is a rougher cut because of fewer TIP and some set to the blade.  But a sharp blade does crew thru 1/4" stock about as fast as I care to feed it.

My misreading of web page fine print caused me to make a mistake that turned out to do me a favor.  Olson had a sale on 59.5" blades -  I had been using 1/8" blades.   The sale was for fewer TIP but thin kerf.  I bought 10.  Turns out that they were 1/4" instead of 1/8".  I feared for a loss in cutting a sharp curve.  Turns out that there is not that much loss in fine tracking and the 1/4" blades last way way longer.  My 10 blades may out last me. 

 

In the US, we can get get some real crap in our choice of hobby tabletop bandsaw blades.  PowerTec - I found to be not sharp and brittle steel,   Bosch is now also VermontAmerican - they used to be OK, but they must have fired their QA department, because I got a batch that would have cut better if I flipped the blade and used the back side as the cutting edge.    Olson  - costs more - is sharper - lasts longer - the longer life is more than the additional cost - so in the end it is the economical choice. 

 

My experience with all this has provided me with the following lessons:

If you will be doing serious resawing -  harvesting logs and seasoning them  -  getting lots of 4x4 and 8x4 commercial lumber  - not buying a floor model 14" bandsaw  with a powerful motor - and expecting a 9"/10" tabletop bandsaw to fill in will turn out not to workout all that well.   The big boys not only do the job, there are way more choices for blades.

The tabletop  - the advertised depth of cut is for Pine - not dense hardwood -  the feed has to be slow and a blade will dull sooner than wished for.    If you can accept a rough cut and have a drum, disc, and belt sander to fine tune to the line, it will be a better scroll cutter than a purpose built machine - especially if you are cutting thicker stock.  So, it was not really a mistake.

[Steve20]

You're right, Mark, the throat plate is only 3.5mm thick ply and will not take very much in the way of drilled holes. I will give it a try, though, but I'll progress the jig and feather board first.

 

I have a good vac (Festool CTL Midi) sitting close to the bandsaw and I plug it straight in when I'm sawing. It sucks in almost all of the dust/debris away and there hardly any left on the bandsaw table when I'm use the stock throat plate.

 

Maybe a (drilled) throat plate made from hard wood would be the answer.

Steve

[Steve20]

Jaager,
I'll only use the insert when making thin or critical cuts because of the debris problem. This is not just because of zero tolerancing; the insert provides a smoother transition through the saw blade than the stock throat plate as it is completely flush with the bandsaw table surface.

 

You are right in that there isn't a lot of choice in blades for a bandsaw this size (1400mm). Axminster offer 11 (steel) own brand blades including an ¹/₂” 6 TPI blade, which I am trying out on the next pieces I rip. The only 4 TPI blade they offer is 3/8". As I currently have only 2 ¹/₂” cu ft to RIP and my maximum depth of cut will be 3", I'm hoping the ¹/₂” blade will suffice. I going to buy a spare ¹/₄” 14 TPI blade as I've been happy with the performance of this. If the ¹/₂” blade is OK I'll buy a spare also, otherwise I'll try the ³/₈” 4 TPI. Axminster is always prompt in their delivery so there is never much of a wait time.

 

Axminster advise that the blade should be centered on the rubber band that sits in the top wheel gullet. Before I ripped the Pear I did this and adjusted the tracking (easy to do using the tacking control knob (below, centre rear). I've just checked now and the tracking hasn't shifted by even a small amount.

 

            

 

I held off buying a jigsaw and waited to see if the bandsaw alone would suffice and so far it has. Of course, if I get serious about ripping I'll get something bigger and put it in the garage, but for my purpose right now this bandsaw is perfect and I'm very pleased with it.

 

Steve

 

 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2021 by Steve20

[No Idea]

Hi Steve - using these blades made the biggest difference to my bandsaw.  They are just brilliant and they will make just about anything that you want.  The cost is also very reasonable.  I have various width blades for different tasks.

 

https://www.tuffsaws.co.uk

[glbarlow]

On 11/23/2021 at 12:24 AM, Steve20 said:

looked for the Thurston blades but see they are not manufacturing now.

Jim Byrnes now recommends Martindale blades. I replaced the old Thurston blades on my Byrnes saw, they are perfect for model size cutting. 

[Jaager]

Steve,

 

Tracking on a bandsaw is not about the blade staying where you set it on the guide wheels.  I would expect that most any model saw will hold where it is placed.

The critical factor is the sort of cut it makes in wood.  Resawing is the high stress test for a saw.

As long as your cuts are producing slices that are parallel and all in the same plane - using your present position - well, if it ain't broke, don't change it.

If it starts doing an "S" along the cut,  or  the thickness at the start is different from the thickness at the end (even though still perfectly vertical)  try moving the blade at the top wheel such that the teeth are at the center.

I would say the same if it started giving a wedge ( an angle when viewed end on ),  but I suspect that what this sort of wedge is telling you is that the blade is no longer sharp enough and needs to be replaced.

You could try adjusting the blade position, but all that might do is prolong the bad cuts.  The cost for doing that test is wasted wood.  If I am correct about the blade being too dull, soon starts the banging, and then the snap.  

As an aside, no matter the cut, any new bang, bang, bang, means that there is a crack in the blade, Stop and replace, it will not take long for the blade the snap anyway. 

 

Most who have a tabletop bandsaw probably never use it for resawing.  They use it for scroll cuts and maybe short crosscuts - it is quick and dirty at crosscutting.  With a scroll cut, a continuous adjustment is being made as the work moves against the saw.  The center of the blade at the crown of the top wheel is probably sufficient for this and is easy to do.   What you are doing is pushing the saw to its extreme limits in doing thick hardwood resawing.   With a big saw and a carbide tip blade or bimetal blade, the work is repetitive, mostly, and on cruise, mostly, although it still deserves close and constant attention.   With the small machine, each slice is likely to be a whole new adventure.

Edited November 28, 2021 by Jaager

[Steve20]

Unfortunately, Mark, neither Byrnes nor Martindale are readily available for us in the UK. If they were I would bought Byrnes for sure.

Steve

[Steve20]

No Idea,
Thanks very much for the link to Tuffsaws: They have a good range of products and their website is really informative.

I see they recommend SuperTuff Premium and Hobby/Thin Gauge Blades for the bandsaw I have. 

For sure I'm going to buy a range of Supertuff Premium and I'm thinking to buy the 1/4" Hobby with 24 TPI because it's only .014” (.35mm) thick and I'm hoping this will have reduced kerf on the thinner strips.

Steve

[No Idea]

4 minutes ago, Steve20 said:

No Idea,
Thanks very much for the link to Tuffsaws: They have a good range of products and their website is really informative.

I see they recommend SuperTuff Premium and Hobby/Thin Gauge Blades for the bandsaw I have. 

For sure I'm going to buy a range of Supertuff Premium and I'm thinking to buy the 1/4" Hobby with 24 TPI because it's only .014” (.35mm) thick and I'm hoping this will have reduced kerf on the thinner strips.

Steve

Your welcome mate - I have found this supplier to be extremely good and they really are proud of their products.  I wouldn't go anywhere else in the Uk now.  As for the kerf - I have found that we lose 50% of everything we buy its just one of those things.  Its better to cut what we have correctly then try and save a few quid here and there.  If you need a really good supplier of fantastic wood in the UK let me know and I'll pass on their details.  Happy building buddy