Untangling and rerigging or start from scratch?

[Rgpracer]

My son found this HMS Victory ship (identified by tlevine as a 1:96 Mantua model) in his garage in Ottawa Canada about 6 years ago in bad disarray.  I have been researching a lot about the HMS Victory and with my plastic modeling background (since 1967(ish)) this is a super challenge for me.  I am a woodworker, welder, race car builder, former fighter jet crew chief.....like to add wood model ship builder on my resume.

I have always wanted to build one......all that said, in my research, i have tried to untangle this rat's nest and reconstruct the mast and put this back together......but, I've also considered taking it down to the deck and starting from there...,...may i get your opinion about this? I also believe that I put will make it easier to clean and detail the deck.   There are pieces missing, parts disconnected, many issues.

A few pictures to view......please let me know, try to piece it back, or take it down to the deck?

 

Ps......can you also tell me a good book or source on rigging this.

 

Thanks and Happy New Year

Msgt Ray Parker (retired)

Wichita KS

[Roger Pellett]

Rigging a three masted square rigged ship is a project in and of itself.  The photos that you have posted indicate that whoever built the model did a decent job building the hull.

 

I would, therefore, suggest that you strip the model down to the hull.  Carefully save masts, yards, blocks, deadeyes, etc.  Do not remove any of these items securely attached to the hull.  Clean the hull, saliva and Qtips, repair any damage and rerig.  You will need new rigging line.

 

You will also need a good reference.  Longridge’s The Anatomy of Nelson’s Ships has some good isometric drawings of rigging.

 

Roger

 

 

[Rgpracer]

1 hour ago, Roger Pellett said:

Rigging a three masted square rigged ship is a project in and of itself.  The photos that you have posted indicate that whoever built the model did a decent job building the hull.

 

I would, therefore, suggest that you strip the model down to the hull.  Carefully save masts, yards, blocks, deadeyes, etc.  Do not remove any of these items securely attached to the hull.  Clean the hull, saliva and Qtips, repair any damage and rerig.  You will need new rigging line.

 

You will also need a good reference.  Longridge’s The Anatomy of Nelson’s Ships has some good isometric drawings of rigging.

 

Roger

 

 

Thanks Roger....kinda what I'm learning towards.

[druxey]

If this were a valuable historic model, one would try to save as much of the original material as possible, This is not the case here, so Roger's advice is very good advice. 

[Rgpracer]

4 minutes ago, druxey said:

If this were a valuable historic model, one would try to save as much of the original material as possible, This is not the case here, so Roger's advice is very good advice. 

Agree, but lol......looking at cutting the rigging away is a daunting task in itself.  Cut here...don't cut here....lol.

Thanks for the advice.

[mtaylor]

One further bit of advice.   As you work on stripping her down and sorting things out..... take lots of photos. print them out and annotate them.   All removed parts, bag and label.  If you rely on memory alone, you will forget which bit came from where.

[Rgpracer]

1 hour ago, mtaylor said:

One further bit of advice.   As you work on stripping her down and sorting things out..... take lots of photos. print them out and annotate them.   All removed parts, bag and label.  If you rely on memory alone, you will forget which bit came from where.

Agree mtaylor....lol....at near 65, I don't rely on memory for nothing.

Great advice....ya know, in looking at this thing, hard to get a good starting point where to cut.

I also don't know all my terminology and what to call parts.....for example......do I cut right below the dead eyes and save as much of the net as possible.....looks like I want to cut below the block and tackle?

Thanks and sorry for dumb 101 questions.

[TBlack]

Ray,

I’m going to depart from the considerable wisdom and advice given by Roger and Druxey. I had a similar problem a few years ago (see log Researching St. George) where the bowsprit and attendant rigging was a tangled mess. That area I cut away and redid from scratch. The rest of the rigging I left in place and tightened it up. My reasoning was that I didn’t want to add work if I didn’t have to. Your situation looks like the main mast and rigging needs a redo. However, it looks like you can save the lower shrouds. Hard to tell from the photo what the main top shrouds look like.

BTW, when you go to buy the Q tips be careful; they sell 2 kinds. The one to avoid is the one where the stem has break away joints. The least little pressure and they break in your hand. Most frustrating! Also, Mark’s suggestion is spot on. Longridge’s book would be helpful, and there are many build logs on this site that may supply help. In the search box (upper right) type in Victory.

Tom

 

[Roger Pellett]

Whoever rigged the model did a sloppy job on the ratlines (the rope ladders on the masts). Best to redo.

[Ian_Grant]

Just curious here - your son "found it in his garage"?  Did the previous owner leave it there?

 

Depends on how much work you are willing to put into it. it seems to be completely rigged in natural-colour thread whereas the standing rigging (fixed rigging that supports the masts) should be much darker to represent tarred line. But replacing all that would be a BIG job. I agree with Roger about the ratlines, also the deadeyes are too close together. Plus there's something awry about the mainstay and preventer, in the 3rd photo. She needs a figurehead - you can probably buy a nice one ready for painting, I'm not sure what the scale is. The bowsprit gammoning is missing. Forestay and preventer shouln't be attached to the jib boom. I just see these at a glance....I also recommend the Longridge book to re-rig her.

 

Good luck! It has the makings of a great model........

[mtaylor]

I was about to suggest what Tom did, before I saw his post.  Look as some other log (use the MSW search and keyword: RESTORATION).  I wouldn't start cutting away rigging and masting in a wholesale fashion.  Sometimes things can be unraveled and put back into position.

 

As for what been said about deadeyes and rigging....  it's a kit, not a scratch build and there's probably more period incorrect things then those.  

 

The question that you need to ask yourself is "how deep down the rabbit hole do you want to go"?   If you want to deep dive, go get a Caldercraft kit of Vic or wait a bit and get the new one coming out designed by Chris Watton for Amati.

[TBlack]

Msgt. Ray,

Mark makes a good point. How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? Yes, the forestay and preventer stay is rigged incorrectly, but will your audience know the difference? I stand by my previous recommendation. Do a little trimming and tightening; fix the masts. It will pass muster. Don't make perfection the enemy of the good.

As an aside: I'm thinking, Master Sergeant, fighter aircraft. Does that mean Marines?

Tom

Edited January 3, 2022 by TBlack

[Rgpracer]

45 minutes ago, TBlack said:

Msgt. Ray,

Mark makes a good point. How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? Yes, the forestay and preventer stay is rigged incorrectly, but will your audience know the difference? I stand by my previous recommendation. Do a little trimming and tightening; fix the masts. It will pass muster. Don't make perfection the enemy of the good.

As an aside: I'm thinking, Master Sergeant, fighter aircraft. Does that mean Marines?

Tom

Thanks TBlack.....Army 6 years as Gunner/Crewchief on Hueys, jumped to Airforce for another 18 as Crewchief/Flightchief.

Although my audience will be mainly me, I don't do things halfway, as a dirt Late model crewchief, I built and raced my own drag car, granddad to 10.......I just like doing things right....BUT, I understand overkill.

There was quite a few things broken and the gun deck was filthy after how ever many years sitting in the detached garage BEFORE my son rented the house in Ottawa Canada.

This WILL be a big job, but, being retired and if the grandkids don't bother me with projects, I can take my time.

 

Also.......I have not ever seen the steering wheel OUTSIDE the upper deck, isn't it supposed to be under?

[Rgpracer]

3 hours ago, TBlack said:

Ray,

I’m going to depart from the considerable wisdom and advice given by Roger and Druxey. I had a similar problem a few years ago (see log Researching St. George) where the bowsprit and attendant rigging was a tangled mess. That area I cut away and redid from scratch. The rest of the rigging I left in place and tightened it up. My reasoning was that I didn’t want to add work if I didn’t have to. Your situation looks like the main mast and rigging needs a redo. However, it looks like you can save the lower shrouds. Hard to tell from the photo what the main top shrouds look like.

BTW, when you go to buy the Q tips be careful; they sell 2 kinds. The one to avoid is the one where the stem has break away joints. The least little pressure and they break in your hand. Most frustrating! Also, Mark’s suggestion is spot on. Longridge’s book would be helpful, and there are many build logs on this site that may supply help. In the search box (upper right) type in Victory.

Tom

 

Thanks Tom

There was considerable damage that I didn't want to just "jury" rig....my audience will be me and I will do it as right as I can.  I know there is a point of overkill and I won't go there, but, I will do it right.  With the rigging there, there was no way to clean it the way it needed cleaned.

I have spent a few hours (while watching my Chiefs loose) dismantling the rigging.  

Why is the steering wheel outside the upper deck, never seen this on any pictures?

Thanks for your input, all these people are awesome.  I will take everyone's advice, on the search input of "Victory" or "Restoration".

Here are a couple of pictures......PLEASE advise me as you see fit...

Thanks and Happy New Year Sir

[Jim Rogers]

I would remove it all. The shrouds are not rigged correctly, they should be in pairs and and stacked port and starboard. The foot ropes appear to be just glued in place are not clove hitched. You can get proper size line from Syren Ship Company. You’ll learn more doing it correctly. My 2cents

[mtaylor]

I agree on removing the wheel.  Some kits do strange things like that.   

 

Since you've stripped away the damage, now might be appropriate to give it a good cleaning and get a good look at the hull, decks, etc.   Use q-tips and spit is the best way.  The enzymes in spit help to remove the dust and grime.  Use a clean q-tip when the spit stops working and don't put it back in your mouth to re-wet it.  Tedious work, but the payoff is usually a good one.

[Rgpracer]

1 hour ago, Jim Rogers said:

I would remove it all. The shrouds are not rigged correctly, they should be in pairs and and stacked port and starboard. The foot ropes appear to be just glued in place are not clove hitched. You can get proper size line from Syren Ship Company. You’ll learn more doing it correctly. My 2cents

Thanks Jim.....will the book by Longridge, Anatomy of Nelson's Ships help me with the proper rigging of the shrouds or can you give me a source please?

Thanks

[allanyed]

Longridge's book will be a great help in many ways, including how the shrouds were paired and set over the mast, how the ratlines were done, and much more.   But, as you seem to be something of a detail minded person, or dare I say a bit of a perfectionist, I would invest in a copy of David Lees' Masting and Rigging English Ships of War.   There are other books that members use as well and would recommend, but this one will get right down to the circumference of every piece of rope, how they rove, and on and on.   You may want to check the masts and spars against the books to be sure the ones you have are the correct size and shape as well.

 

You can also use the Vadas spread sheet here in the articles data base to get all the sizes of masts, spars, and ropes   This is based on the Lees ratios.  All you have to do is check the appropriate year and size vessel, type in the scale you are working, then 51.33 (the beam of Victory) in the appropriate box and all your dimensions will come up.    https://thenrg.org/resource/articles     You can also go to  https://thenrg.org/resources/Documents/articles/TheArtOfRigging-Steel.pdf here in the articles data base for contemporary information.

 

Allan

 

 

Edited January 3, 2022 by allanyed

[Jim Rogers]

What Allan said perfectly.

[Brian Hanington]

Msgt Ray, as a true beginner (despite my advanced years), I really appreciate how daunting this hobby can seem. The books mentioned above are wonderful, yet I’ve found them to be very expensive and hard to get here in Canada (I’m also in Ottawa). I have truly benefitted from Frank Mastini’s “Ship Modeling Simplified.” Photo of cover and one illustration included. I hope I’m not transgressing any copyright issues by showing an example, but I do want you to see how simple the drawings are to understand. They help me immensely in just learning what everything is called, and I’m ex-Navy! I've just checked on amazon.ca and they can have one to you on Wednesday for about $28.00.  Consider it.  Happy building! 

Ship Modelling Simplified.pdf Mastini illustration example.pdf

[Keith Black]

21 hours ago, Rgpracer said:

Why is the steering wheel outside the upper deck, never seen this on any pictures?

Ray, steering wheel is incorrect, the correct term is 'ship's wheel'.  I hope you start a restoration log where we can keep track of you progress. 

[Rgpracer]

7 hours ago, Brian Hanington said:

Msgt Ray, as a true beginner (despite my advanced years), I really appreciate how daunting this hobby can seem. The books mentioned above are wonderful, yet I’ve found them to be very expensive and hard to get here in Canada (I’m also in Ottawa). I have truly benefitted from Frank Mastini’s “Ship Modeling Simplified.” Photo of cover and one illustration included. I hope I’m not transgressing any copyright issues by showing an example, but I do want you to see how simple the drawings are to understand. They help me immensely in just learning what everything is called, and I’m ex-Navy! I've just checked on amazon.ca and they can have one to you on Wednesday for about $28.00.  Consider it.  Happy building! 

Ship Modelling Simplified.pdf 117.19 kB · 6 downloads Mastini illustration example.pdf 90.33 kB · 5 downloads

Thanks for your service Chief.  I will look into this.  I have taken a lot of this ship apart, and now feel that it truly might not be salvageable.  The original builder jury rigged a bunch of it, a lot is broke or missing, hard to get into the middle of someone else's mess.  This might be over my head.

I am going to ask the fine people of this awesome forum what single mast ship would be a great "beginner" ship to start with.

I really like the ships like Victory, gun ships.....there has to be a good larger scale ship that I could "break my teeth on".

Thanks for the info, it will be priceless sir.

Happy New Year

Ray

[Rgpracer]

1 hour ago, Keith Black said:

Ray, steering wheel is incorrect, the correct term is 'ship's wheel'.  I hope you start a restoration log where we can keep track of you progress. 

Thanks Keith.....please bear with me.

Another note......if I wanted to start with a simpler single mast wood ship, to get used to rigging, to get into building, to learn about "ships wheels", what ship would you recomend?

 

[mtaylor]

You might consider this one.... it's a group build in that all the builders have a common goal and there's many logs to reference.     https://modelshipworld.com/forum/77-medway-long-boat-1742-public-group-project/

[Keith Black]

  I agree with Mark. 

[Rgpracer]

Thanks guys

[davyboy]

Hi Ray,you might also consider Chuck Passaros' (Syren Ship Model co) Revenue Cutter HMS Cheerful It's at 1:48 th scale. A fairly easy POB scratch build. He sells the plans and basic kit timber and also mini kits for all other items if you cant make your own. All building instructions can be downloaded from the Syren site This was my second model after building a kit previously.

 

There are a number of build logs of it in the Scratch build post 1801 section of the forum. The Syren ad is in the RH column on the home page. If or when you do decide to repair your wreck  please ditch those dreadful deadeyes,if scaled up they'd be the size of cartwheels.

Kind regards,

 

Dave 

[Rgpracer]

1 hour ago, davyboy said:

Hi Ray,you might also consider Chuck Passaros' (Syren Ship Model co) Revenue Cutter HMS Cheerful It's at 1:48 th scale. A fairly easy POB scratch build. He sells the plans and basic kit timber and also mini kits for all other items if you cant make your own. All building instructions can be downloaded from the Syren site This was my second model after building a kit previously.

 

There are a number of build logs of it in the Scratch build post 1801 section of the forum. The Syren ad is in the RH column on the home page. If or when you do decide to repair your wreck  please ditch those dreadful deadeyes,if scaled up they'd be the size of cartwheels.

Kind regards,

 

Dave 

Dave, didn't even think or realize that the deadeyes are not scale.  In dismantling some of this ship, I've seen some pretty bad looking modeling from the original builder.  He didn't wrap rope, he glued them in place....the deadeyes and the iron that wraps them and fastened to the ships side was crap-ily done, many many things done poorly.

I'm considering removing all hardware, canons, anything salvagable like deadeyes buckles and such and scrapping the ship.

It is always harder to make something outta a mess that someone else has started, race cars, wood projects, even wood model ships.

 

Thanks again.

Ray

[Keith Black]

 Ray, is the hull itself is alright? I don't think it's ready to be allocated to the bin, not just yet. At this point it doesn't eat much, if you've decided you don't want to mess with it, place everything in a box and hang on to it. Who knows, at some time in the future you might discover a neighborhood kid that has a hankering to make model ships and this ole gal could be the ticket to their dreams. 

[Rgpracer]

2 minutes ago, Keith Black said:

 Ray, is the hull itself is alright? I don't think it's ready to be allocated to the bin, not just yet. At this point it doesn't eat much, if you've decided you don't want to mess with it, place everything in a box and hang on to it. Who knows, at some time in the future you might discover a neighborhood kid that has a hankering to make model ships and this ole gal could be the ticket to their dreams. 

Yes sir, believe the hull to be in good shape.  I will build a box to set it in and shelf it, along with mast and all that came from it....who knows, after I gain some experience, it might be something I take a second look at.

 

Thanks Sir.

Ray