The San Marco mosaic ship c. 1150 by Louie da fly - 1:75

[Mark Pearse]

Hi Steven

 

This looks very interesting.

 

Do you have an idea of how large the actual vessel would have been? It's difficult from the images, with the way they have multiple scales operating at once.

[Louie da fly]

Hi Mark,

The Contarina ship, on which Woodrat based his 14th century Round Ship was about 20 metres (60 feet) long.

 

But there were merchant ships of every size in the Mediterranean from quite tiny, and I don't know what the maximum size would be, but probably smaller than we'd normally expect for something of this type.

 

I'm making mine the same size as Contarina, despite having three masts instead of Contarina's two. Unless I change my mind, which I might - at this size it would be slightly smaller than my nef, which in turn is based on the size of the knarr Haithabu/Hedeby 3.

 

Steven

[woodrat]

On 12/6/2022 at 9:51 AM, Louie da fly said:

it should work as well horizontally as vertically.

I think there should be a rack either side of the quarter gallery to rack the pikes. Pulling them out of holes in the transom would be tedious in an emergency. Having them pointy things sticking out would certainly discourage boarding by the stern! 😁

Dick

[AnchorClanker]

 

 

Hmm.  Now there is a model!!  Scale 12 inches to a foot.  The best scale there is!

 

Mark

 

Edited December 8, 2022 by Chief Mark
Wanted the image

[Louie da fly]

At last I have my workspace back. We've had visitors for the past 4 months (staying in my workroom) and I haven't been able to do any modelling. First step in actually making sawdust. Here's the keel layout and the pieces ready to be cut.

Not sure when I'll be able to get it happening but it's nice to be on the way again.

 

Steven

Edited February 19, 2023 by Louie da fly

[druxey]

Them pesky house guests! Enjoy reclaiming your space, Steven.

[Mark Pearse]

Hi Steven, looking forwards to it, & the history that comes with it.

[Louie da fly]

I've been gluing outlines for the shapes of the futtocks for the frames onto 2mm walnut sheet from the dead tree next door which I got from the neighbour and cut up by the bloke across the road who has a bench saw. He was apologetic that there were holes in the sheets where some pest had eaten into the wood, but for my purposes it's still fine. These are the bilge futtocks.

But I made a mistake with the floor timbers - they should stretch the full width of the hull from bilge to bilge, but I printed off only half widths. Fortunately I caught it before I cut the wood. So I'll be re-doing those. I'm going to simplify them, though. At this scale it's  just too difficult to make a floor timber with an upward curve at each end with a precise enough width, so I'm just going to make them straight and cut off at the overlap with the bilge futtocks. Not quite historically accurate but close enough  for the job at hand

 

Steven

[woodrat]

Steven, great to get you back cutting wood. That cross section looks vaguely familiar. Just a question or two: What will your length to beam ratio be and how will you calculate narrowing of the floors?

Dick🙂

[Jaager]

Steven,

 

when this one is completed, I have a ghost for you to try: a ballenger.   Never heard tell of it until it came up in a book about Henry V 's navy.

[Louie da fly]

Dick, the ship will have proportions are about 7.4 : 1 - It's so long ago now I can't remember whether I based that on the Contarina ship or not - I have a feeling I made it somewhat wider in proportion to length, but I may just be having a senior moment there.

 

I took the Mezza Lune method of calculating the narrowing of the floor timbers that you outlined in your Round Ship build and copied it. I may not use your wonderful jig to do so, but that's the general idea.

 

Jaager - fascinating information. There's very little information on what exactly constituted a balinger - according to Wikipedia the Source Of All Knowledge; 

 

"A balinger, or ballinger was a type of small, seagoing vessel. It was swift and performed well under both sail and oars. It was probably developed in Bayonne for hunting whales. The ships were used in the conquest of Anglesey in 1282. They were also in use in the 15th and 16th centuries. They were distinguished by their lack of a forecastle, and by carrying either a square sail, or a sail extended on a sprit on a single mast. They were generally less than 100 tons, with a shallow draught, and the earlier vessels at least carried 30 or more oars for use in sheltered areas or for close fighting. They were mainly used for coastal trade, but could also be used as transports, carrying around forty soldiers. A number were employed in the early Royal Navy for this purpose . . .

Despite their long history there are no confirmed illustrations of a balinger in contemporary medieval sources while a confirmed archaeological example has yet to be discovered. Speculation suggests that it may have resembled a modern Thames barge in overall size but with a square rig."

 

It puts me in mind of the small vessels used by the Dutch against the Spanish in the 16th century; their crews were known as something like "sea children", or possibly "sea orphans" but that's obviously the wrong terms because a Google search didn't turn them up. But I've see illustrations in the past of the vessels in action, and accounts of the battles between these tiny vessels and full-size Spanish ships. If only I could find them again. 

 

But as far as making a model of one - fascinating idea, but well, I don't think so. Too little information and not even a single picture. I'd be better doing one of Henry VIII's roo-barges (rowing barges)

 

or one of his so-called galleasses (not a true galleass, but apparently a sort of precursor to the galleon). Both those are very tempting to me.

 

 

But I've probably got enough proposed vessels already lined up for the future to keep me going for several lifetimes . . . 

 

Steven

[woodrat]

On 2/22/2023 at 11:45 AM, Louie da fly said:

the ship will have proportions are about 7.4 : 1 - It's so long ago now I can't remember whether I based that on the Contarina ship or not - I have a feeling I made it somewhat wider in proportion to length, but I may just be having a senior moment there.

Yes, the ship you are doing may be rounder  than the Contarina 1 ship which I measure at about 4:1 but your vessel is probably  earlier than Contarina. The Logonova wreck of about 1400 CE is also about 4:1.

Dick

Edited February 23, 2023 by woodrat

[Louie da fly]

Yes, mine dates to c. 1150.

 

Steven

[Alex-Ks1]

On 12/6/2022 at 4:38 AM, Louie da fly said:

Looks like I'm on a roll today. I just came across these photos of a Portuguese vessel under construction with a bow that is very reminiscent of many mediaeval Mediterranean ones, particularly those of the San Marco mosaics.

 

 

 

 

Could be of great use.

 

Steven

Now thats a big model !!!!

[Louie da fly]

All the pieces for the keel and the curved parts of the framing are now laid out ready for cutting out with my new scroll saw. Wish me luck!

Steven

[woodrat]

This looks like fun to me. Enjoy your new toy

Dick😁

[Cathead]

That's a lot of scrolling! Can't wait to see the result. I've seen your work, luck isn't a factor.

[AnchorClanker]

On 2/23/2023 at 3:36 PM, Alex-Ks1 said:

Now thats a big model !!!!

Yes!  Twelve inches to a foot is the best scale!!

 

   

 

[Auger]

Like this.
Going to follow along.

[Baker]

Good luck and enjoy 😉

[AnchorClanker]

Steve,

Do you use white glue to glue your templates to the wood? If not, what do you use?

Thank you,

Mark

[Louie da fly]

Yes, white glue. I haven't yet found out how well it works when cutting through it - does it hold the paper onto the wood securely as the saw goes through? I dunno.

 

Steven

[Louie da fly]

Despite my having found this photo on a site relating to Maltese vessels, this is flying what looks like a Portuguese flag. But that bow looks very like the one I propose for my San Marco ship.

 

Steven

[BANYAN]

Just found this Steven; I'll be following this, yet another very interesting build, with much interest.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[iMustBeCrazy]

On 1/15/2022 at 3:41 PM, Louie da fly said:

with two side-rudders

Steven,

I may be wrong but: (I might have to put that in my signature)

 

To me the depictions in the mosaics look more like sweeps through ports in the stern than any form of styrbord or rudder. I don't know how that would fit historically.

 

[woodrat]

4 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

Despite my having found this photo on a site relating to Maltese vessels, this is flying what looks like a Portuguese flag. But that bow looks very like the one I propose for my San Marco ship.

It looks rather like a bragozzo, which is venetian, although I think they had lug sails.

Dick

[Louie da fly]

Craig, Woodrat and I had a discussion on these and he convinced me that despite a learned article discussing these "through-hull" side rudders, they really aren't a feasible possibility, but more likely to be artist error. That they may be sweeps is an interesting idea, but given their position, I'm pretty sure they're rudders.

 

Dick, I checked with the guy who put the post up, and yes, the vessel is Portuguese. But I did a google image search for "Portuguese fishing boats" and it looks like it's not typical.

 

Steven

 

PS: Craig, where in Melbourne are you? Nice to have another Victorian resident here on the forum.

Edited April 1, 2023 by Louie da fly

[iMustBeCrazy]

2 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

where in Melbourne are you?

Bayside.

 

I'll let the idea of sweeps eat at you for a while

 

[woodrat]

I was strongly considering installing a steering oar on 

my mycenean galley rather than a quarter rudder. But this would not be likely in a Venetian round ship.

Dick

[Louie da fly]

I finally got to use my Birthday Present  - My Precious. (We gots it on Our birthday, Precious).

 

And I made sawdust!

 

 

I hope to get more exact with my sawing, but I'm pretty happy with my first attempt. And I can always smooth the cut pieces down to shape.

 

I'm currently designing a couple of jigs - one to assemble the frames from the futtocks and another to put the completed frames onto the keel. The first one will blatantly steal the idea from Woodrat's 14th century Venetian Round Ship build log. Here's the second jig, drawn on Sketchup.

 

 

The keel and its supports are the white and yellow bits running across the drawing. The two yellowish pieces with the curved cut-outs are for the frames to rest against - they slide in and out between the purple guides  (to allow for the narrower frames as we go fore and aft from the master frame). And the Pink and brown things are the two halves of an assembled master frame.

 

 

More anon.

 

Steven

 

Steven

 

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by Louie da fly